Cheapshooter
New member
Because some people refuse to accept change to modern technology.
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Why the fuss over all metal frames?
- Thread starter fisherman
- Start date
There are Glocks out there with in excess of 300,000+ documented rounds through them. Most any of them could probably do the same, but I'm not aware of anyone doing it and documenting it with other plastic framed pistols.
I'm aware of some steel framed pistols with 100,000+ rounds. There may be some with more rounds through them,but if anyone has done it and reported so I've not seen it. The expected life span of aluminum alloy framed pistol is in the 35,000 round range.
I've not seen a cracked plastic or steel frame from use. Some from over charges, or abuse, but not use. I've seen some aluminum alloy frames crack from normal use.
Plastic isn't replacing any of the classic pistol designs made from steel. But is a much better option than the lighter weight aluminum alloy guns. Those are the designs fading away. Plastic is not only cheaper and lighter than aluminum, but is proving to be far more durable.
I'm aware of some steel framed pistols with 100,000+ rounds. There may be some with more rounds through them,but if anyone has done it and reported so I've not seen it. The expected life span of aluminum alloy framed pistol is in the 35,000 round range.
I've not seen a cracked plastic or steel frame from use. Some from over charges, or abuse, but not use. I've seen some aluminum alloy frames crack from normal use.
Plastic isn't replacing any of the classic pistol designs made from steel. But is a much better option than the lighter weight aluminum alloy guns. Those are the designs fading away. Plastic is not only cheaper and lighter than aluminum, but is proving to be far more durable.
scoobysnacker
New member
Some of us prefer the feel of a steel pistol, or an all-metal design. There are numerous pistols of that make that are considered "classics", and the casual (or serious) collector can enjoy the gun as a piece of craft, as well as a functional tool.
Regarding long-term durability, we just don't know when it comes to polymers yet. There are centuries of learning that aide in maintaining steel, and it seems like a fair bit can transfer over to aluminum... and doesn't for polymers.
Someone mentioned bakelite- that stuff is getting VERY brittle now. That's not a huge endorsement.
Sometimes we acquire things to keep, enjoy, and pass down. I'm sure a lot of us have Dad's (or uncle Joe's, Grandpa's etc) firearm, and something like that is more than just "a shooter".
Kinda irritating that firearm owners bicker and taunt each other over things like this, when there are plenty of folks around who want to take them away from all of us.
Regarding long-term durability, we just don't know when it comes to polymers yet. There are centuries of learning that aide in maintaining steel, and it seems like a fair bit can transfer over to aluminum... and doesn't for polymers.
Someone mentioned bakelite- that stuff is getting VERY brittle now. That's not a huge endorsement.
Sometimes we acquire things to keep, enjoy, and pass down. I'm sure a lot of us have Dad's (or uncle Joe's, Grandpa's etc) firearm, and something like that is more than just "a shooter".
Kinda irritating that firearm owners bicker and taunt each other over things like this, when there are plenty of folks around who want to take them away from all of us.
TruthTellers
New member
True, so my edit will be lasts longer under heavy use than polymer and Glocks have been seen to go hundreds of thousands of rounds. So, enough to be worth the added weight and price?While it's true that steel used in firearms can last a long time, there's no way at this point in time to know that it lasts longer than the other materials being discussed. When plastic/polymer/etc. materials used to make firearms have been around for 100+ years, we'll have a better understanding as to how durable and long-lived they are.
As one P. Harrell on youtube would say, "You be the judge."
Spats McGee
Administrator
In my heart-of-hearts, I'm a wood and steel kind of guy. Give me a parkerized 1911 to shoot and I'm about as happy as I can be. With that said, I got my first polymer pistol ~5.5 years ago, and I'm not seeing much of a downside. My G19 was my EDC for most of that time, and she's got about 2K rounds through her. I haven't detected any wear on the polymer parts yet, and the only wear I've found on the metal ones are cosmetic . . . . finish rubbing off in my holster. At my age and budget, I'm never going to put 300k through her. Or through my 1911. Barring some catastrophe, both will outlive me.
People looking for serious target pistols want steel construction. I know Hammerli tried plastic frames with the 280 and SP-20 but all of the shooters I know, including myself, kept the all steel 208. The 208 is older but it is still seen more on the line than the plastics and it brings more money when resold. I don't recall any other plastic serious target pistols. If there ever was a plastic Free Pistol I never seen one. The plastic guns are inexpensive, functional, and accurate enough for general use. I think they are here to stay but there is always a market for quality steel pistols for serious target use.
When plastic/polymer/etc. materials used to make firearms have been around for 100+ years, we'll have a better understanding as to how durable and long-lived they are.
Bakelite has been around for over 100 years, and has been used in firearm construction for as long.
Granted, its use has largely been in lower-stress areas, but verifies that some polymer formulations aren't just going to magically crumble away when they hit a certain age.
And the chemistry of modern firearm polymers are far more advanced.
Which would you rather be pistol whipped by: An empty Glock 17 or a S&W Model 29?
Maybe that provides an answer to the steel vs plastic for some.
If that is your primary reason for choosing a steel over polymer frame pistol, you are probably using it wrong.
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Plastic seems cheap(and it is cheap compared to steel) but it has proven to be serviceable for some parts.
Depends on the plastic. Some polymers like PEEK (used in aerospace and biomedical products) are quite expensive and have properties far in excess of what is likely needed in most firearms applications where polymer is used.
It is NOT as nice as steel and walnut on a gun. If you like plastic buy plastic. It's a free country.
From an aesthetic point of view, I tend to agree, but this is a subjective viewpoint.
From a functional standpoint, all of these materials have their strengths and weaknesses (with wood all but replaced by polymer or other materials in situations where utmost durability and accuracy/repeatability are required).
lifesizepotato
New member
I own plenty of polymers and have no trouble admitting that for actual practical use, they are pretty much objectively better than metal. I'd certainly take a USP into a warzone before a 1911 or Hi-Power.
Still, since the vast majority of my guns are used for enjoyment at the range, I tend to prefer the added weight, craftsmanship, and sentimental connection to the "old world" that steel (and, to a lesser extent, aluminum) frames give me.
Still, since the vast majority of my guns are used for enjoyment at the range, I tend to prefer the added weight, craftsmanship, and sentimental connection to the "old world" that steel (and, to a lesser extent, aluminum) frames give me.
We shall see in about 80 to 100 years if polymer guns, manufactured today, or within the last 15 years, will last as long as metal guns, which have been around for over 300 years. It is not so much about reliability or quality. I think its the notion that anything plastic is cheap or cheap looking, and not as durable as metal. The only reason manufacturers went to plastic, IMO, is because it is cheaper to manufacture. I am a big fan of all metal pistols, even though I own a Glock 19, which is a great handgun. I just think metal pistols are classic, and plastic is just cheap. That's why all, but one, of my handguns are metal.
Walt Sherrill
New member
Bill DeShivs said:TMK - there is no handgun with an all-plastic frame. They all use inserts for the rails and trigger group. These inserts are either steel or aluminum.
By law- all handgun frames must have a metal insert containing the serial number, BTW.
Therefore the grip frames are plastic. The actual frames are metal.
Maybe. Maybe not. I think there was at least ONE (possibly TWO) all-polymer framed gun, but I suspect a mix of polymer and metal might be more practical. While metal is used in some frames, the metal is HELD in place by the polymer in those frames -- there's not always a subframe within the polymer holding the metal parts together keeping them properly spaced, etc.
The link below is to the article about the Ruger P95, from which the quote below was taken. (I had a P95DC for several years before moving on. It a reasonably accurate and very functional weapon that never malfunctioned.) I think the Ruger P97, which was a .45, was a very similar design.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/the-venerable-ruger-p95/99567# I added the underlining, below.
The Ruger P95 was produced from 1996 until 2013, when it was dropped from the company's catalog. It's a recoil-operated autoloader with an external hammer, a 3.9-inch barrel, and a 10-round magazine. Magazine capacity was increased to 15 rounds in late 2005.
Features of the then-new pistol included a blued or stainless-steel slide, double action only (DAO) or decocker mechanisms, a 3.9-inch barrel, a three-dot sight system, and a polymer frame. The frame did not have any metal inserts or steel bearings in its rails and was described by Ruger back in 1996 as being a "magic" injection-molded, custom-compounded, high-strength polymer with long-strand fiberglass filler. It was tested extensively for strength and durability and outperformed other brands of polymer-framed pistols and even steel-framed models for durability. Eventually, Ruger offered a variation of the P95 with a manual safety, and in 2006 Ruger added an integral rail to the underside of the polymer frame.
One of the unique aspects of the Ruger P95 in operation is that when it's fired, its barrel and slide move rearward together for a short distance until an angled surface on the integral camblock of the full-length recoil spring guide engages the underlug on the barrel and cams its breech end downward and out of engagement with the slide. The slide then travels fully to the rear and ejects the spent case. This camblock system was totally new for Ruger back in 1996.
By the way, unlike so many of today's auto pistols that have magazine disconnect safeties, the Ruger P95 will fire with the magazine out.
Features of the then-new pistol included a blued or stainless-steel slide, double action only (DAO) or decocker mechanisms, a 3.9-inch barrel, a three-dot sight system, and a polymer frame. The frame did not have any metal inserts or steel bearings in its rails and was described by Ruger back in 1996 as being a "magic" injection-molded, custom-compounded, high-strength polymer with long-strand fiberglass filler. It was tested extensively for strength and durability and outperformed other brands of polymer-framed pistols and even steel-framed models for durability. Eventually, Ruger offered a variation of the P95 with a manual safety, and in 2006 Ruger added an integral rail to the underside of the polymer frame.
One of the unique aspects of the Ruger P95 in operation is that when it's fired, its barrel and slide move rearward together for a short distance until an angled surface on the integral camblock of the full-length recoil spring guide engages the underlug on the barrel and cams its breech end downward and out of engagement with the slide. The slide then travels fully to the rear and ejects the spent case. This camblock system was totally new for Ruger back in 1996.
By the way, unlike so many of today's auto pistols that have magazine disconnect safeties, the Ruger P95 will fire with the magazine out.
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Quote:
When plastic/polymer/etc. materials used to make firearms have been around for 100+ years, we'll have a better understanding as to how durable and long-lived they are.
:
Bakelite has been around for over 100 years, and has been used in firearm construction for as long.
Granted, its use has largely been in lower-stress areas, but verifies that some polymer formulations aren't just going to magically crumble away when they hit a certain age.
Bakelite is hardly an apt analogy when comparing steel vs aluminum vs polymer when discussing the merits of a material best suited in terms of long term longevity involving the frames/receiver/slides of firearm. Bakelite was used in "lower-stress" applications like grips, stocks and tea kettle handles but never, to my knowledge, was it ever used to make a gun. And, as scoobysnacker pointed out, "...that stuff is getting VERY brittle now."
When you run out of rounds with a plastic pistol, what you have is a lightweight piece of plastic. When you run out of rounds with a steel pistol, ya got yourself a hunk of effective non compromising steel. Just couldn't help myself, i actually bought a couple of plastic pistols couple of years ago. Course i waited several decades till they proved themselves.
Yes please feel free to take it in the humor it was intended.
Yes please feel free to take it in the humor it was intended.
What you're left with is a polymer handle attached to a decent impact weapon. You can jab with it or swing it with the slide as the impact point. Could you do this with a metal framed pistol too? Absolutely. And while I get the above was in part a joke, it's a real comment that gets repeated a lot. Pistols aren't just crude clubs, and frankly with the ergonomics of them jabbing with one can be pretty effective and to me easier than trying to bop someone on the head. If you look at a polymer framed pistol and don't think that could hurt hitting you, you're mistaken.When you run out of rounds with a plastic pistol, what you have is a lightweight piece of plastic. When you run out of rounds with a steel pistol, ya got yourself a hunk of effective non compromising steel. Just couldn't help myself, i actually bought a couple of plastic pistols couple of years ago. Course i waited several decades till they proved themselves.
Yes please feel free to take it in the humor it was intended.
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Buy what you like. I like blue steel and the quality and craftsman ship in these guns. Military weapons are tools. Tools wear out and have to be replaced. When you replace a tool
you buy the newest technology. That only makes sense. That has little to do with a guy like
me who is not worried about shooting anything but game and targets. If the situation arises
I feel perfectly well protected with my old steel guns. I know from experience that several
top selling sporting arms have been ruined with casting & plastic parts. There was no other
reason to do this than bottom lines.
you buy the newest technology. That only makes sense. That has little to do with a guy like
me who is not worried about shooting anything but game and targets. If the situation arises
I feel perfectly well protected with my old steel guns. I know from experience that several
top selling sporting arms have been ruined with casting & plastic parts. There was no other
reason to do this than bottom lines.