Why the fuss over all metal frames?

in an absolute worst case situation, when everything else has failed, your handgun is an impact weapon. If things ever get to that point, I don't want to have to rely on hitting someone with plastic. Steel preferred, and the heavier the better.

There's no free lunch, and while I accept a less than the lightest possible pistol for carry, I take some comfort in the recoil reducing effect of greater mass, you might not.
 
The only reason manufacturers went to plastic, IMO, is because it is cheaper to manufacture.
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...and because it's lighter in a carry pistol...
...and because it's less susceptible to moisture and corrosion...
...and because it allows for the manufacture of complicated shapes that can't be rendered in some other materials...
 
in an absolute worst case situation, when everything else has failed, your handgun is an impact weapon. If things ever get to that point, I don't want to have to rely on hitting someone with plastic. Steel preferred, and the heavier the better.
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As I mentioned previously, pistols can be used as more than clubs. Just like steel framed pistols, polymer pistols have steel slides and steel barrels. If you're hitting someone with the polymer frame of the pistol, you're doing it wrong.
 
If you're hitting someone with the polymer frame of the pistol, you're doing it wrong.
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While there's probably entire schools of thought on the matter, I don't know them, and will just rely on my intuition, and some things I've read from cops many years ago. Of course the actual conditions will determine what kind of strike could be made, but I envision doing my best to use the butt of the pistol.

Any strike with the barrel /slide will try to twist the pistol out of my grip, at a time I am desperate to retain the weapon, so a strike with the butt, with my hand wrapped around it seems like a better idea to me.

Also, I have read of people actually breaking their pistol or bending the barrel striking someone in the head with it. Rare, but apparently not impossible. Am also sure that if it ever comes down to it, I won't be able to take my time and have a careful methodical evaluation of all possible options before its too late to use any of them, but it occurs to me that it would not be a good thing if a strike to an attackers head bought you enough time to reload but disabled your pistol in the process.

I doubt I'll ever be in a situation to find out, but if I ever am, and survive, I'll tell you what worked, and what didn't...;)
 
44 AMP said:
While there's probably entire schools of thought on the matter, I don't know them, and will just rely on my intuition, and some things I've read from cops many years ago. Of course the actual conditions will determine what kind of strike could be made, but I envision doing my best to use the butt of the pistol.



Any strike with the barrel /slide will try to twist the pistol out of my grip, at a time I am desperate to retain the weapon, so a strike with the butt, with my hand wrapped around it seems like a better idea to me.



Also, I have read of people actually breaking their pistol or bending the barrel striking someone in the head with it. Rare, but apparently not impossible. Am also sure that if it ever comes down to it, I won't be able to take my time and have a careful methodical evaluation of all possible options before its too late to use any of them, but it occurs to me that it would not be a good thing if a strike to an attackers head bought you enough time to reload but disabled your pistol in the process.



I doubt I'll ever be in a situation to find out, but if I ever am, and survive, I'll tell you what worked, and what didn't...;)
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A forward strike with your index finger along the frame could twist the pistol in your hands, but any blow that is glancing, forward or not, could leave you off balance as well. Betting you'll be able to get the pistol in your hand high enough to deliver a meaningful overhand blow is another gamble, and one that space and time might not allow. A number of pistols also don't have grips that extend dramatically below the hand, so getting a good impact surface is another question (though the weight still helps).

If a forward strike bends your slide or barrel of a pistol with modern metallurgy, something very unusual is going on. Is it possible? Maybe, but to me that's so far down the list of the probable that at that point I might as well worry that I'm fighting Jet Li and he's going to snatch the pistol from me or disassemble it in my hands. If I'm at the point in a fight where I'm delivering physical blows with a firearm to save my life, maybe I do have to destroy the firearm (and hitting downward with the magazine could also dislodge the magazine or induce a malfunction as well).

I don't have any delusions about having the time to plan anything. Every system and every choice has limitations. My point was just because a pistol has a polymer frame doesn't mean it can't be used as an impact weapon. It does mean you might have to consider a different method.

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Folks, plastic guns are cheaper.... This is the reason they are so popular. They are serviceable so why not if you are just buying a tool, buy the cheapest serviceable tool available. That's why police departments and now the military buys plastics. It's OK because they work. I have a couple, an Ruger LC9 and a Glock 19. I like the LC, I don't know if I'll keep the Glock or not. The trigger on the Glock is crunchy and if it doesn't smooth out I'll get rid of it. Neither has had a malfunction and I've shot the Ruger a lot.
I also bought a 9MM DW L.W. Commander a few months before the Glock, The DW hasn't had a malfunction either. Have a Beretta 92FS, had it for years, it's never malfunctioned. The DW and the Beretta are a lot more fun to shoot than the other 2, better triggers and less violent recoil. I don't really understand why the Glock seems to be so violent compared to the DW, they are about the same size and weight but the DW is a lot more pleasant to shoot.
 
Right, but at that point we're talking about more than the difference between just frame materials. We're talking about a significant difference in the time put into a firearm.
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There is no equivalent reward for expending time and skill on a plastic part that just came out of a mold. You get something serviceable, and that's the end of the story. Plastic parts are serviceable in areas with low strength requirements. But there is a market for people who want more, and it generally requires metal as a starting point.
 
Metric said:
There is no equivalent reward for expending time and skill on a plastic part that just came out of a mold. You get something serviceable, and that's the end of the story. Plastic parts are serviceable in areas with low strength requirements. But there is a market for people who want more, and it generally requires metal as a starting point.
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A pistol with a polymer frame still has a metal slide, barrel, and internal parts. There absolutely can be something gained by spending more time in those areas (such as barrel lockup and trigger), I'd say more than continuing to do work on the frame. And with modern manufacturing you don't need to spend additional time on a metal frame once finished by the machine. Many metal frames are also serviceable, end of story. Not every metal framed firearm is some hand fit masterpiece. As far as "low strength requirements", polymer is perfectly strong enough to hold up to the rigors of use as a firearm (lest we forget they typically have metal inserts as well) and are also significantly more resistant to rust or corrosion. Is there a market for those that want "more"? Sure, there always will be. The idea that a polymer frame isn't strong enough though is frankly false.

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Polymer frames will not last as long. But then again, the better manufacturers have figured out the Beauty of the Modular Grip. Beretta was way ahead of it's time in the Pocket gun world with this feature. Crack a grip with polymer, mo problem, just buy another $18.00 grip. Now you seen this design going going into production with high round count weapons.
 
I just came in from the shop. making a part out of UHMW, a long chain polymer that is common in industry.
I took a .130" deep cleanup cut from the outside diameter in the lathe and saw deep checkering even deeper than that. The 6" diameter UHMW bar is maybe ten years old and doubtless absorbed some UV's.
But the real point is that I expected it before taking off the .130", plastics outgas and are degraded by UV's, and this had been stored in a outbuilding that had overhead fiberglass panels so we wouldn't need lights out there. Daylight attacks many plastics.

Had the original customer who I purchased the UHMW for called for black material it probably wouldn't have checked so deep, but that would not effect outgassing.

Now they are going to need to start making more guns with all the plastic they can't make straws with. :-)

You like "polymer"? Good for you. Enjoy what you like and stand up for it. Steel has problems too, as does 416 stainless, just different, and in my opinion less dissipating problems.

By the way, I program CNC's in my shop, and hire operators to run them, and while it's true that certain operator spots don't require too much training most of them need a great deal more intensity and watchfulness than most plastic assembly lines do, as the material is generally more expensive and a poor operator can drive one into red ink fast!

A good operator needs to use many measuring tools and meet many observational requirements, when a part begins to grow a few tenths he needs to know how to adjust the offsets, and know when a tool needs changing, another potential challenge. It does take a good deal of skill to operate a CNC mill or lathe and do it right.

In my opinion the movement towards more and more plastics is caused by the same motivation behind zinc alloy guns parts, a quick buck.

As for me. I carry a Kel tec, but it's an entirely different feeling for me, it's a throw away gun straight up. A plastic straw. It didn't cost much and stays out of the sun.

The only thing I have against affordable plastic guns is that manufacturer's aren't making as many steel guns.
 
dgludwig said:
And what is your evidence, empirical evidence, for this claim?
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Lol, Empirical Evidence? Not sure what that is. I do have evidence of a number of polymer cracks and fractures with some guns. Like this Empirical Evidence.

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Also had one crack all the way down the mag well. I would call it a Empirical crack while shooting
 
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There are 1911's that are still functioning that over 100 years old. No matter how strong modern plastics are and to what extreames they have been tested and subjected to, time is not one of the tests.

As a machinist, I made parts from nylon...a tough, durable plastic. However, I had a car that had a gear on the end of the distributor that was made from nylon and when I pulled the distributor out the nylon gear was observed to have become brittle and shattered. New nylon would have never been brittle enough break (into several pieces), but "old" nylon, nylon that had been subjected to the chemicals in motor oil for who knows how long, had failed.

Inasmuch as one cannot subject modern gun plastics to time and contaminants over the 100 years or so that the metal in a 1911 has been subjected to, I will wait for the next hundred years before I buy my first plastic gun...just to be on the safe side.
 
Several things going on here.

1. People like what they like. Some people can just admit that, some people feel the need to rationalize their preferences as being carefully thought out and logical choices based on strong arguments and thoroughly researched factual information.

2. People like what other people they like tell them they like. Again, some people can say that they like a gun or gun feature because so and so likes it, and some feel the need to pretend that it's actually not that simple and they try to make it sound like there's something more behind their preference.

3. People don't like what they don't like. Some people buy more based on avoiding things they don't like than on buying things they like. Again, this can be based on personal preference or based on what they've heard from others that they like or respect.

4. And, there are some people who spend the time and have the ability to do serious research on complicated topics and make buying decisions based exclusively, or nearly exclusively on facts and logic.

To complicate things, even people who fall into categories 1, 2 and 3 often strongly believe that they are actually in category 4. They may not even realize that they are trying to rationalize a preference and really believe that their preference is based purely on fact.

All of that is just provided as trivia. Everyone here, of course, falls into category 4.

Just don't ask me to explain how it's possible for one reality to create so many different buying choices that can all be justified by facts and logic. :D
 
My logic is simple, I don't like what I don't like. :D

Don't bother trying to teach this pig to sing. It wastes both our time, and it annoys me...:D:rolleyes:
 
Logic is steadfast but emotion is as the shifting sand.

logically I went from a 3lb all steel .45acp with 9 rounds to a 2-1/2lb plastic.40S&W with 14 rounds.

I save my emotions for the knife collection[emoji4]


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dahermit said:
There are 1911's that are still functioning that over 100 years old. No matter how strong modern plastics are and to what extreames they have been tested and subjected to, time is not one of the tests.
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If there's a better .45 auto available than a .45 1911, and I think I need a .45, I'll buy the best .45 I can affored. It's a tool NOT a religious relic. I want a weapon that works as it should and does what it needs to do. I'm not buying a family heirloom -- so I don't much care about what condition its going to be in 100 years from now. (In most cases, there are better investments, too.)
 
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