Why no makarov in 9mm?

tangolina said:
I looked up hk 7pm myself. It is interesting concept but I don't think it works very well. It is a locked action, fundamentally different from direct blow back. The fluted chamber has nothing to do with the delayed unlocking. It is just an aid for extraction. It shows one of the shortcomings of the design. Nobody wants to go through the trouble of fluting the chamber if they don't have to.
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The P7 series (various PSP, P7M8, M10, M13) guns worked well, and were used by police and individuals in Germany for many years. Folks who own them like them, but the do have some quirks or an eccentric feature -- as do some other guns. The P7 guns, however are known for exceptional accuracy and only the SIG P-210/M49, another service pistol, seems to do as well or better.

While the 9mm and .40 versions used gas to help retard the slide, the .22, .32, and .380 versions of the P7 were straight blowback versions.

The fluted chamber did not make the gun hard to use or cause functional problems -- it was just different way of handling extraction and probably no more costly or troublesome than other methods of extracting a round when building a new gun design from scratch. I've never seen the fluted chamber called a "shortcoming" or a potential problem; it was simply viewed as a "different" approach to a standard problem.

The grip, which had to be squeezed to unlock the safety to fire the gun IS sometimes mentioned as an awkward aspect of the design, others consider it an important safety feature. That grip and the HEAT that accompanies a lot of round fired rapidly is why I've never wanted one myself. I may change my mind, one of these days if I find one with a price I can afford.
 
Direct blow back is marginally adequate for pistols without marked clumsiness. It is quite acceptable in shouldered arms, such as smg.
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Not in pistols nor in SMG's, blowback is a terrible firearm operation.

In pistols, where size of the slide and recoil forces is of concern, blowback is profoundly bad.

In shoulder fired SMG's and PCC's, you have a weapon that has too much mechanical recoil for it's caliber.

Further more, aluminum cased ammo is particularly bad in blowback and delayed blowback firearms due to prolonged contraction time of expanded aluminum and its lack of lubricity, due to the aluminum oxide layer on the casings, compared to brass or even coated steel.
 
I think you are referring to direct blow back for high pressure rounds. It definitely has its place for low pressure round such as 22lr.

Even for high pressure round such ad 9mm, certain applications it works nicely. For instance, i saw ar-look-alike gadget that converts semi auto pistols into carbine. It works on direct blow back. A shouldered platform can afford a sizeable counter weight for it to work without undue clumsiness.

-TL
 
A big problem with a 9mm luger handgun with a blowback design is that the spring has to be so strong that the slide is almost impossible to rack. If I recall correctly there was an older German one that avoided that problem in a clever way: you could disconnect the slide from the recoil spring in order to rack it.
 
I believe the hi-point pistols all use direct blow back design. They just have a heavy slide to over come the pressure generated. They're not particularly hard to rack,just butt-ugly!
 
Mainly because the magazine and the well were designed around the 9mm Makarov cartridge, which is shorter than the 9mm Luger. In the 90s, the Russians DID make a "PMM" version, which was chambered for a high-pressure version of the 9mm Makarov (and which delayed opening by having helical grooves in the chamber that the case expanded into during firing), but that was dropped because of the difficulty of keeping the high-pressure ammo out of the standard pistols.
 
Single stacking 9x19 has always been a problem because of the tapered design of the cartridge casing. Just lay(8) 9x19 rounds on a table and squeeze them together you will see that they form an arc. It is my opinion that there will never be a single stack Glock because of this, but a single stack .40 S&W is a real possibility like the G 36 because of the straight walled cartridge design.
 
agent109 said:
Single stacking 9x19 has always been a problem because of the tapered design of the cartridge casing. Just lay(8) 9x19 rounds on a table and squeeze them together you will see that they form an arc. It is my opinion that there will never be a single stack Glock because of this, but a single stack .40 S&W is a real possibility like the G 36 because of the straight walled cartridge design.
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A problem?

There are (and have been)n a LOT of single-stack 9s! Just offhand I can think of a bunch, starting with the S&W 39, 3913 and 952, the SIG P-210, P225 and P239, various STARs, the Luger P-08, the Walther P-38, a variety of Kahrs, the H&K P7, a number of 1911s, etc., etc.

Three of four of these guns are capable of stellar accuracy. Many of the smaller 9mm compacts and subcompcts not mentioned are 9mm. Some of these do 7- rounds, more do 8-rounds, a few did 9-rounds in mags that are flush with the bottom of the grip. None of these guns had reputations for mag issues or feeding problems. (I've owned a bunch of them.)

I suspect that if Glock thinks there is buyer interest in a single-stack 9mm, they'll build it. I wouldn't expect such a gun to be a LOT thinner than some of the other sub-compact Glocks, and the trade-off between larger grip and a lot more capacity is a hard one to work your way through...

.
 
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The problems are there and not related to all single stack guns. The .45, .40. 380, and .32 don't have the tapered case of the 9x19 Luger round. Yeah 8 rounds is about the limit you can get in a single stack mag of 9x19 as Kel Tec and Kahr and S&W have found out. It is that arc or curving caused by the tapered 9x19 round that causes the presentation angle out of the mag.

I don't know if Glock really cares about the private market as they are going gangbusters with military and government contracts that they are years in backlog with.

This is based on my opinion and some inside baseball I heard at the last Glock certification class I attended in Georgia. This is just an internet gun opinion site and that is mine for what it is worth and I really don't care what anyone thinks of it. Hey this is just the internet and we are shooting the breeze. Peace!:D
 
* * * This is based on my opinion and some inside baseball I heard at the last Glock certification class I attended in Georgia. * * *
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Wow, I'd be interested in knowing if Glock ever contemplated offering a model chambered for the 9mm Makarov (9x18)?

Probably doubtful, since the U.S. market is so saturated with .380s (9x17s) of all makes.
 
agent109 said:
Yeah 8 rounds is about the limit you can get in a single stack mag of 9x19 as Kel Tec and Kahr and S&W have found out. It is that arc or curving caused by the tapered 9x19 round that causes the presentation angle out of the mag.
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It isn't the curvature/arc that causes the problem -- it's the LENGTH of that stack of 9mm rounds!! More than 9 rounds and the magazine becomes ungainly and LONG, and it must stick out beyond the grip and the mag starts to look like a monopod! It also gets in the way in the holster, making carry more awkward.

That taper/arc you consoder so troublesome must also be addressed in double-stack mags, and Glock has a 33 round mag that functions quite well. CZ has a 30-rounder for the 75B. They're all much longer than the grip.

It's not the taper or arc that causes problems - it's the size of that stack of 9mm rounds that is just too long!
 
Yup..... double stack mags for 9x19 are no problem and the Browning Hi Power was the first to use them I believe. That arc does limit the single stacking 9x19 only!
 
agent109 said:
That arc does limit the single stacking 9x19 only!
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I'll say it again: It's not the taper that causes the capacity problem. The size of the 9mm cartridge base is the biggest limiting factor! The rear of the cartridge is caught by the slide and the round is pushed up the ramp. Even though the nose MIGHT be lower than the rear the gun's mag, breech face, and feed ramp design addresses that round's slightly less-than-level presentation.

We're not talking about rimmed rounds. We're talking about a slightly tapered round. Here's a photo of TEN 9m rounds side by side. Not much of an arc -- and certainly not enough to cause a feeding problems. (The nose of the round on the left could be shifted a bit to the right...)

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If the round wasn't tapered you still couldn't get more than 8-9 rounds in most single stack mags. The length of the grip in which that single-stack mag must fit limits how many rounds can be put in the mag tube when you also have to include a follower and a powerful spring!

Please note: Double-stack mags must ALSO deal with the 9mm "taper" Double-stacking twice as many rounds into the same grip length without also doubling the width of the column doesn't make the taper go away.
 
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I can plainly see that wide gap between the first and second round on the left. It proves my point.

Now set up (9) rounds of .40 or 380 or .45 and you will see no gaps between them.:eek: Justin Moon has the only patented solution to the single stack nine arcing problem. It starts with an off center feed ramp on the barrel and the presentation angle coming out of the magazine.

That is why Kahr makes their own mags and recommends charging a weapon using the slide lock lever. The Kahr single stack 9x19 pistols are the only ones accepted by law enforcement agencies as well. This I can attest to from personal experience with my agency.;)
 
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agent109 said:
I can plainly see that wide gap between the first and second round on the left. It proves my point.
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I didn't say there's no taper in a stack of 9mm rounds. I'm just saying it doesn't matter. You haven't made your point.

agent109 said:
Justin Moon has the only patented solution to the single stack nine arcing problem. It starts with an off center feed ramp on the barrel and the presentation angleming out of the magazine.
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Justin Moon seems to be a pretty good gun designer, but his "patented" solution isn't the only solution... And understand: the higher cap mags that work in the Kahr weapons are LONG!! After-market mags for Kahrs are typically problematic, even if they're only 8-rounders. Kahr mags certainly work better in Kahrs than the alternatives. ( I've had several Kahrs -- been there, done that.)

Click on the links below to SEE other hi-cap mags, including some that hold 15 rounds.

Wilson Combat makes a [/U]10-round 1911 mag for single stack 9mm guns that works well and is highly regarded by users.
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/1911-Elite-Tactical-Magazine-9mm-Full-Size-10-Round-ETM-Base-Pad/productinfo/500-9/

Pro-Mag makes a 15 round 9mm single-stack mag for the S&W 39xx series of handguns. http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/pro-mag-smith-amp-wesson-bodyguard-15-round-magazine?a=1581576 Pro-Mag has a horrible reputation on forums like this, but I've had pretty good success with SOME of their mags, especially mags for the CZ compacts.

Hi-point carbines (and handguns) can use a 15-round single stack 9mm mag. http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/aftermarket-hi-point-9mm-carbine-15-rd-magazine?a=1128160

The problem isn't the tapered round or the arc. Please note: ne of these mags are curved to accommodate the "arc" you claim is a obstacle that only Moon's patented solution can overcome.

You'd think that if the taper was a potential problem, a 15-round mag would be impossible. It isn't. As I said earlier, the problem is that when the mags go beyond 9 or 10 rounds, they become ungainly/cumbesome and difficult to carry when in the holster or in a mag holder.

Do you need more proofs?

There are probably more hi-cap single stacks out there... Numrich had a number of 15-round single-stacks for 9mm guns several years ago, but I didn't want a big, long mag. I'd just carry more mags and change them a bit more frequently..

Higher-capacity 9mm single-stack mags are JUST NOT PRACTICAL.

.
 
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This has strayed a bit, but is an interesting discussion. I will say that within my limited experience with Makarovs, they seem to be good little guns in their original caliber. A friend had three Maks, an E. German, a Chinese and a Russian IIRC. All three were 100% reliable with ball ammunition as expected, AND with the Cor-Bon JHP ammunition we used in each. I was prepared to be unimpressed with the Maks, but came away very impressed with those little pistols. The Maks and their ammo seem so well matched and functionally reliable, I don't think I'd miss them not being chambered in the more powerful 9X19MM caliber;-)

BTW, agent, I've been to 9 or 10 Glock armorers classses, Dept. Glock transition training, used the Glock in tactical trainings, qualifications, carried Glock 40+ hours a week, etc. I'm not surprised that there may be information in a Glock class from instructors and/or attendees ref. problems with other designs;-) My 9MM Glocks, and single stack 9MMs by other manufacturers, all function reliably. Did I mention that they ALL function Reliably?
 
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