Why isn't the .380 considered a viable self defense round by many, but the .38 special is?
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Carl the Floor Walker
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The Ruger LCP came out in 2008 and since then has sold millions. Now the Ruger 10-12 rd MAX just recently came out. I do not think I have ever walked into a LG and NOT seen a LCP. 13 years later and still selling.
What is interesting is to see some people that have bashed the cartridge now actually buying a Max. Same as many that were all for 40 cal now EDC 9mm.
Things change. Are the ammunition manufactures not paying attention. Or do you think that they will continue to develop a better 380 which in 5 years alone has improved.
Ruger launched the Max. They know how to make a profit. I will bet other fiream manufactures will follow suite.
A Sig 365 Max? A Sig the same size of the Max and low weight of just 10oz come along?
What is interesting is to see some people that have bashed the cartridge now actually buying a Max. Same as many that were all for 40 cal now EDC 9mm.
Things change. Are the ammunition manufactures not paying attention. Or do you think that they will continue to develop a better 380 which in 5 years alone has improved.
Ruger launched the Max. They know how to make a profit. I will bet other fiream manufactures will follow suite.
A Sig 365 Max? A Sig the same size of the Max and low weight of just 10oz come along?
I think probably tradition, and history. Lots of people, particularly younger ones, look at the guns of today, and the ammo performance of today and think that's the way it's always been.
I can assure you, it abso-frackin-lutely WAS NOT!
Up until the later 60s, with a few notable exceptions, factory handgun ammo basically came in two flavors. Lead bullets in revolver rounds and FMJ bullets in semi auto pistol rounds.
Most of the gun writers of the day felt the .38 Special to be superior to the 9mm Luger, for both defense and hunting. Head and shoulders above the .380acp. And. they weren't wrong.
A lead bullet .38 Special could deform and even sometimes expand. They seldom did, but they could, while the FMJ 9mm bullets NEVER DID.
There was no +p, or +p+, unless you handloaded it. There were (almost) no expanding bullets in the popular handgun calibers, unless you handloaded them. Super Vel came out and proved to the buying public that JHP pistols bullets could work. In short order, the big ammo companies began offering JHP bullets. Then spent the next half century trying to get them to work reliably and after they generally got that, trying to get them to work better.
Today, they do work better than they did.
As a defensive round, I would absolutely put .38 special ahead of .380. As part of a defensive package which includes the gun used and ammo capacity, I don't think that today it is clearly superior.
It’s nice to have a historical perspective, thanks for sharing that.
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Personally I think the 380 is great for SD, I just wish I had more options for more rounds like I do with 9mm but most of the carry 380 guns I like only carry 6+1. 9mm is small and cheap so I just don't think 380 has been able to make its mark as easily. But...you are asking about 30sp
So thinking back, and I can only go back to when I was 18 or so in the late 90s, there weren't many good 380 options. It just seemed like a caliber for mouse guns that you used for backup. That stigma still carries through today when people look at 380. And 38 special, which I only fired through my revolvers just felt like a somewhat lesser option than .357 since the guns could fire both. Since .357 was like a freaking canon, I think I always just assumed 38sp was just a smaller version more like a 9mm. Never even would have thought to compare it to .380.
Just my opinion here based on what I experienced with them.
So thinking back, and I can only go back to when I was 18 or so in the late 90s, there weren't many good 380 options. It just seemed like a caliber for mouse guns that you used for backup. That stigma still carries through today when people look at 380. And 38 special, which I only fired through my revolvers just felt like a somewhat lesser option than .357 since the guns could fire both. Since .357 was like a freaking canon, I think I always just assumed 38sp was just a smaller version more like a 9mm. Never even would have thought to compare it to .380.
Just my opinion here based on what I experienced with them.
There's a guy who posts on The Smith & Wesson Forum who calls himself Triathloncoach. He said the same thing
corneileous
New member
That’s kind of what I was thinking, with the technology of today’s self-defense ammunition, the big name ammo manufacturers seem to do a pretty good job in their design when it comes to self-defense ammunition for almost any caliber.
I have yet to do any ballistics testing on my own but I feel pretty confident that the Speer gold dot short barrel 45 ACP hollow points I have loaded in my Springfield XDE compact will still be pretty effective even though the regular 45 is still considered pretty slow even when fired out of a longer barrel handgun.
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
I don't agree that the 9mm Makarov (9x18) is more terminally effective than the .380 ACP (9x17). I own pistols in both calibers. Ammo for the 9mm Mak is even harder to find than for .380. Muzzle energy for common .380 rounds ranges from 200 to 300 ft-lbs. Unless you get into hot loads such as Buffalo Bore, the 9mm mak also tops out at around 300 ft-lbs.JustJake said:
And both are comparable to .38 Special. According to the Wikipedia page on .38 Special, muzzle energy starts at 235 ft-lbs and tops out at 266 ft-lbs for +P.
You can fire .38 Special through revolvers chambered in .357 Magnum, but the .38 Special came first and revolvers chambered in .38 Special can't fire .357 Magnum. In fact, that was the reason the .357 Magnum was made longer -- in order to prevent people firing the higher pressure round through guns that weren't made to handle that pressure.adamBomb said:
In fact, the .38 Special doesn't generate any more muzzle energy than .380 ACP, despite generally firing a slightly heavier bullet.
corneileous
New member
One of the several other gun forums I go to was picking on me quite extensively for sometimes carrying my little North American arms 22 Magnum revolver saying it was just too much of a novelty gun or something to have fun with at the range but I flat out told them that the first day I got that pistol, I fired a non-hollowpoint lead round at the side of a short piece of 4x4 pressure-treated wood post and to my surprise, from about 8 feet away, the bullet didn’t go all the way through it but it went over halfway into it before it stopped. I figured that was pretty impressive even if it only does have just a 1 inch barrel. I sure as heck wouldn’t want to get shot by it by no means.
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Carl the Floor Walker
Moderator
I would not know a thing about the Smith and Wesson forum as I do not belong to it. Nor do I know anything about coaching a triathlon. But then again, your comment is not suppose to be about the topic. Not the first time you have done this for sure. It gets old. If you have a opinion about the topic then just post it.
HighValleyRanch
New member
Well, Wekipedia is wrong. I'm getting more that 400 ft lbs with BB out of my 3" LCRX .38 special +P with 158 grain hardcast. As I posted earlier in another thread, I'm getting the same power out of this load as a midload armscor .358 magnum.
Mulebuk Mojo
Moderator
Interesting, I doubt it seriously but I won't challenge it. Only to say out of my former front pocket snubby with a 1.87 inch barrel with 125 grain hollow point I was getting over 500 ftp.
And I can shoot that bad boy one handed 300 rounds at a time till the gun is so hot it needs 30 minutes to cool off.
Bad to the bone brother ..
And I can shoot that bad boy one handed 300 rounds at a time till the gun is so hot it needs 30 minutes to cool off.
Bad to the bone brother ..
In the old days it was bullet shape and weight that decided the issue between the .380 and .38 Elmer Kieth, John Wooters, Skeeter Skelton and a lot of the old time gun writers recommended, heavy, banded, square shouldered semi-wadcutters of relatively hard cast lead as the best self defense bullet in any revolver.
This type of bullet will not usually cycle reliably in self loaders and you could never get the same bullet weight for 380 as you could for the 38.
In modern times there are much better SD loads available for the 380 although expensive......I like the 380 and 9X18 because I really like the pistols chambered for these rounds.
This type of bullet will not usually cycle reliably in self loaders and you could never get the same bullet weight for 380 as you could for the 38.
In modern times there are much better SD loads available for the 380 although expensive......I like the 380 and 9X18 because I really like the pistols chambered for these rounds.
HighValleyRanch
New member
Not my handloads. BB is Buffalobore, and I am sure that Underwoods and some other commercial companies are available with similar loads.
Everyone wants to use watered down .38 special loads as the criterial, i.e like Paul Harrel to proprogate the myth of weak .38 special.
Everyone wants to use watered down .38 special loads as the criterial, i.e like Paul Harrel to proprogate the myth of weak .38 special.
I’m not sure basing comparisons off of the majority of commercial loadings is evidence of propagating a myth.
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HighValleyRanch
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It is because if you can get commercial loads of .38 +P that reach the old standard of .38/44 then is is possible.
If Wikepedia that .38 special "tops out" at 266 ft. lbs without the caveat that it is also possible to reach 400 plus foot pounds then it has been proven wrong.
If we go by the basis of "majority" then you can prove whatever you want by picking and choosing, and it is just a myth.
Since I live in the woods, when I carry my .38 LCRX, it is loaded with Buffalobor Outdoorsman for four legged critters.
Show me ONE or ANY .380 that can reach this potential. I wish there was, but there isn't.
So anyone who wants to proclaim that .380 is equal to .38 special +p can only claim this by stating that the majority of .38 specials are weak and therefore .380 and .38 special are the same.
If Wikepedia that .38 special "tops out" at 266 ft. lbs without the caveat that it is also possible to reach 400 plus foot pounds then it has been proven wrong.
If we go by the basis of "majority" then you can prove whatever you want by picking and choosing, and it is just a myth.
Since I live in the woods, when I carry my .38 LCRX, it is loaded with Buffalobor Outdoorsman for four legged critters.
Show me ONE or ANY .380 that can reach this potential. I wish there was, but there isn't.
So anyone who wants to proclaim that .380 is equal to .38 special +p can only claim this by stating that the majority of .38 specials are weak and therefore .380 and .38 special are the same.
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