Why don't revolver carriers worry about capacity?

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It's my summer/day-time/low-threat environment pocket gun, basically.
That describes my 642.

I retired it after realizing two things:
  1. The likelihood that I would need a firearm has no bearing on what would happen should the need arise,
  2. and a Ruger SP-9c pistol, with twice the capacity and a much better trigger, was no larger.
 
That describes my 642.

I retired it after realizing two things:
  1. The likelihood that I would need a firearm has no bearing on what would happen should the need arise,
  2. and a Ruger SP-9c pistol, with twice the capacity and a much better trigger, was no larger.
Can't argue with your reasoning. To be really honest, part of the reason I carry that 642 is that it was my dad's gun, and since he passed I find myself drawn to carrying the thing once in a while. It probably sounds strange, but it comforts me somehow, regardless of how many rounds I can put in the thing.

And I do practice with it regularly, and I can shoot it fairly well. At least out to 10 or 12 yards, anyway. I'm no Jerry Miculek, but I can regularly put all five rounds into a 4-inch target at 10 yards in a little over 3 seconds from the draw. Which is just a little slower than what I can do with my Shield. So I don't feel that I'm poorly armed when I carry it.
 
I can regularly put all five rounds into a 4-inch target at 10 yards in a little over 3 seconds from the draw.
Good, but shooting too slowly, I think.

Try shooting at five yards, keeping your shots with the area of a small pie plate, and shooting three to five shots in about a second or a little more--maybe two and a half seconds including the draw.

Move off line while drawing, or risk getting run over.

Consider that the average charging person can cover more than forty feet in three seconds.

So I don't feel that I'm poorly armed when I carry it.
I didn't either, for a time.
 
Good, but shooting too slowly, I think.

Try shooting at five yards, keeping your shots with the area of a small pie plate, and shooting three to five shots in about a second or a little more--maybe two and a half seconds including the draw.

Move off line while drawing, or risk getting run over.


Consider that the average charging person can cover more than forty feet in three seconds.

I didn't either, for a time.

this is good advice regardless of caliber or gun design. you can use paper plates as a quick cheap and easy focal point on a target. doing this allows you to see where you are missing as opposed to simply not hitting a similar sized steel plate. also, equally as important is moving... get off the X.
 
That describes my 642.

I retired it after realizing two things:
  1. The likelihood that I would need a firearm has no bearing on what would happen should the need arise,
  2. and a Ruger SP-9c pistol, with twice the capacity and a much better trigger, was no larger.
Size is a major factor in the carry equation.

At least during warmer weather, an LCR is the biggest gun I can comfortably carry and shoot well. The most powerful caliber I can shoot well and enjoy practicing with on that platform is .327 Federal. Being a six-shooter also maximizes capacity.

Once I'm wearing enough to comfortably carry a K or L frame, I might as well carry a double-stack semi-auto. I can easily get double the capacity with acceptably powerful rounds in 9mm or .40 S&W.

In the woods, I still tend to carry a longer-barrelled revolver in .357 magnum. Part of that is the increased power for animals. Part of it is an excuse to carry something that makes me happy and that I don't otherwise have much occasion to carry. :)
 
Good, but shooting too slowly, I think.

Try shooting at five yards, keeping your shots with the area of a small pie plate, and shooting three to five shots in about a second or a little more--maybe two and a half seconds including the draw.

Move off line while drawing, or risk getting run over.

Consider that the average charging person can cover more than forty feet in three seconds.

I didn't either, for a time.
Keeping in mind that the 3 seconds is a bit of a WAG. I've had buddies time me before using the app on their phone, but never used a true shooting timer w/ a snubbie revolver.

With a larger gun, like either of my S&W M&PCs (9/.40), my average time for five shots from the draw is just under 2 seconds. But I practice a lot more with those, and the grip is significantly larger and easier to get a hand on in a hurry, the sights are larger, plus the triggers are better for fast shooting. The 642 just isn't conducive to fast work. My only point being, that it's serviceable if necessary.

But yeah, I practice moving laterally regularly as well; it's only good sense to practice not being a static target.

However, if I were shooting at a pie plate, I'm fairly sure I could average about 2.5 seconds with that 642. Maybe even faster. A pie plate is a pretty big target.
 
That describes my 642.

I retired it after realizing two things:
The likelihood that I would need a firearm has no bearing on what would happen should the need arise,
and a Ruger SP-9c pistol, with twice the capacity and a much better trigger, was no larger.

A loaded Ruger SR 9c weighs almost twice what a loaded 642 weighs and more than twice what a 342 weighs. I have no doubt a handgun like a Ruger SCR 9c is a more capable handgun than a 642 or 342 in many circumstances but it isn't as easily concealed.

I don't have experience drawing an SR9c from concealment but J frames like the 642 seem much easier to present than the boxier semis from the pocket. My G26 doesn't weigh quite as much loaded as an SR9c but it's the closest thing I have to compare.

Yes, my G26 carries more rounds than my 342. The G26 is easier to shoot fast than the 342. I get sub a 0.2 second split with the G26 and while the 342 is a tick over 0.3 seconds. I can easily hit an 8" plate at 25 yards with the G26 in slow fire while I sometimes miss a 12" plate at 25 yards with the 342. But at ranges less than 21 feet, I get quicker first shot hits from the draw using the 342. Once the G26 is out and on target, it's a far more capable handgun for me but the 342 is out quicker for a first and second shot hit at close ranges and it's far easier to tote.

From the draw from concealment at ranges less than ten yards, I am far faster getting a round, or even two or three, into an eight inch target with the 342 than with the G26. Going from the low ready, the G26 is slightly behind for the first shot but has caught up by round three. I do better with the G26 than the 342 with speed and accuracy as the range gets further with the G26 handily outperforming the 342 past fifteen yards. I would probably improve performance with the G26 at close range from the draw with more practice but I don't think I'll ever get as quick a first round hit from the draw at close range as with a 342 or 642.

How important is shooting from the draw in a defensive situation? I don't know but I do know that at short ranges I can get quicker hits with the 642 or 342 than the G26 when drawing from concealment. I do worry about capacity but the most common violent attack involves one attacker.
 
Brian Enos: I have just started "Practical Shooting-Beyond Fundamentals." This book gives a different perspective on handgun basics. Enos is a noted real world shooter.
 
Enos is a noted real world shooter.

I think this is where some of us kind of raise eyebrows at expert opinions. This begs the question - in real world mortal danger situations? The answer, as near as I can tell, is no. In gun games. Now before this sounds too derisive I realize that many of the skills taught in gun games are part of the skill set that is likely needed to survive a real world confrontation. I also realize that there are going to be VERY few experts in real world shootings from a civilian stand point as very few people are involved in enough to become experts. Still lets not call this a 1:1 ratio.

But Lohman there are many experts who have studied the data of real world shooting events and interviewed those involved. Are you dismissing their work? Not entirely but I am dismissing the ability to generalize their findings as much as it is done. These findings, by need of practicality, are not given to controlled environments. There is a tremendous amount of bias that goes into the relating of events from real world shootings and there is, again by nature of practicality, seldom unbiased observers. We cannot hang on the data as if it were gospel.

Its like me reading up on hitting a baseball, talking to and being taught by a bunch of hitting coaches and former hitters who have a lot more real world experience than most shooting experts, taking countless practice in the batting cages, maybe even having some "force on force" live training from practice pitchers, and then believing the skill set I have learned will translate into being in the box in the bottom of the ninth in game seven of the World Series.

Perhaps, even worse, its me attempting to parrot the lessons to someone else.

Are there skills that are important? Yes there are. In the baseball example I would be far better off than if I had not taken any advise and practice. However there is not a 1:1 correlation. Some of us, perhaps. should beg forgiveness if we don't take the word of experts as the seeming gospel others do.

A personal example. I was 18 or so at the time and had signed up to a new martial arts class that allowed moderate contact on adult sparring night. It was not my first experience in martial arts but I had wanted to change schools. I had taken a couple weeks before engaging in this particular class and felt I was well prepared for it. I was reasonably skilled, in reasonable shape, and I had practiced in point fighting against several of the people I would be participating against. So I end up squared off against Mr. Peterson. I know he has a better skill set than I do and normally wins point fighting. Still I have some chance. He has some reach advantage so I need to move in and keep this simple. As I do he takes a massively powerful right arm, folds my guard as if it is nothing, and lands a "moderate" strike to my headgear. Further attempts were just as fruitless.

I hope, should I ever need to draw a firearm, I don't find myself in the same situation because despite believing I had a chance it, from previous "force on force" exercises and classroom time, and find all my expertise only worked in games.

After all that though - getting different view points, such as those from Enos, is never a bad thing as long as one realizes the limits of the experts. Recently read the book "When violence is the answer" by Tim Larkin. Interesting perspective and pretty damning to the "stay on defense" argument.
 
Enos

Thanks for your well written post on the topic of learning and practice.

First impressions on Enos as a newfer [me]: I think that your last paragraphs is having to do with knowing one's limitations is important. Also. the work with Enos goes on before the gun comes out. So far, just getting started in the book Enos stresses awareness. This awareness comes across as not being necessarily defensive. You are probably keenly aware of this from your martial arts experience. I'd rather concentrate on awareness versus old thinking.

You appear to be a person whose life is a process of learning. As that should be for all of us. Has the expert lost his "beginners mind?" Hubris can put one in the bone orchard. In my competitive experience real champs/experts have won the match before getting to the actual range. Thanks again.

Added: "An expert is somebody twenty miles from home with a brief case."
 
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I tend the think that it has a lot to do with statistics, both that you're very unlikely to have to ever use a gun to defend yourself and that most instances statistically are over in just 2-3 shots. There are other factors too, maybe the noir of carrying a snubbie around, who knows. By biggest gripe is the very slow reload, because even with practice, it's still slow comparatively, I hate to think of how bad it would be if your life was on the line.
 
Ruger45C

It's easy to punk people out on the net. I not sure ,but it looks like you contradicted yourself in the middle of the post. If it's two or three shots only why is reloading a concern? Round here we have a serious gang problem. These folks are generally armed with Glock's or similar. How would you defend yourself when a gangbanger is using a G17 opened fire? Your three shot statistics would tell me what? Give me the statistics on how that would go down. Remember, my carry gun is a G23.4. I'm shopping for a G29. No strips needed here:eek:

Added: You got lies, damn lies, then you got statistics
 
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If it two or three shots only...
There's a big difference between "two or three shots only" and "most instances statistically are over in just 2-3 shots".

You are correct that if it really could be limited to "two or three shots only" that reloading would not be a concern.

Of course it's not possible to limit things like that. In fact, most successful self-defense gun uses (about 4 out of 5) are resolved without a shot being fired. Again, the word "most" is critical, or we would all be justified in carrying unloaded guns.
 
"Statistics" and "Most of the time" plus "unlikely" do not warm the cockles of my heart. How about one solid reason the self-loader would not cover more ordinary situations than a revolver. Just one reason. Reliability? Many of us have shot hundreds if not thousands of rounds through our Glock's without a malfunction. I trust the ugly things.
 
J.G. Terry said:
It's easy to punk people out on the net. I not sure ,but it looks like you contradicted yourself in the middle of the post. If it's two or three shots only why is reloading a concern? Round here we have a serious gang problem. These folks are generally armed with Glock's or similar. How would you defend yourself when a gangbanger is using a G17 opened fire? Your three shot statistics would tell me what? Give me the statistics on how that would go down. Remember, my carry gun is a G23.4. I'm shopping for a G29. No strips needed here

Added: You got lies, damn lies, then you got statistics

I don't carry a revolver these days. I have at times in the past, mostly before the current crop of smaller semi autos showed up. I've carried a 642/442/SW360/SP101 because I do like revolvers in general for some things, but for carry, it's no longer for me. There are too many good small semi autos that are easier to shoot, weigh less, have better sights and hold 2x the ammo or more. I don't think it's smart to rely on statistics to determine your carry gun, because there's no way of knowing what's going to come your way, even if it is statistically unlikely in the first place.

Generally speaking I can agree that most people are fine, most of the time, carrying a 5 shot J-frame, but it's the what if's that kill the idea for me. Terribly slow reloads and another factor is that no matter how good of a shot we are at the range, in a chaotic situation where the adrenaline is pumping, it seems commonplace for accuracy to go out the window. When there's only 5 shots on tap and a potential for 50% or worse hit rate, that's awful and made worse by probably needing to do a very slow reload, assuming the person is even carrying a reload.

I have a G27 and a G42 I carry, I love the G23 but the G27 carries much better. I've had the G29 but it's just too damn thick and bulky, it looks close on paper to a G23 but it's not.
 
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By biggest gripe is the very slow reload, because even with practice, it's still slow comparatively, I hate to think of how bad it would be if your life was on the line.

That depends entirely on equipment and skill. I reload a revolver as fast or faster than most reload a semi.
 
How about one solid reason the self-loader would not cover more ordinary situations than a revolver. Just one reason.

Besides personal preference probably none. The only times I carry a wheel gun these days is its a 44 magnum loaded with 200 grain Gold dots or a 357 magnum J frame as a 2nd gun.
 
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