Why didn't modernized Hi Powers ever catch on?

Sports like IPSC and USPSA have diminished the desire for a 9 mm gun since there is Major and Minor Scoring and the .45 was King. Now the desire is a 1911 in .38 Super. For production the 9 is still used.

The 1911 frame offers a great trigger platform and many modifications for the shooter. One shooter I remember in the 80s was National Champion. He shot the .45 like no one else at the time but when it came to shooting steel targets he shot his High Power for the extra rounds it had.

In many of the sports now where Major is not needed the 9 mm has taken over. Look at Steel Challenge.
 
HisSoldier,

The trigger and its design mechanics and heaviness are often brought up.
But the design has proven itself around the world (as has the 1911's to be sure) and even in copying it the heavy trigger and mag disconnect were retained. Why? Because it's a military gun to be used under stress. The British, its commonwealth nations and dozens of other countries found these aspects no hindrance.

Which leads me to AZShooter's comments.

The gaming aspects of handgunning are pointed out. But the BHP was not
reworked for games. It stayed exactly as it has always been because, again,
it's truly a military and police pistol. And that's how most of the world saw it and the reason it was purchased or copied.

As for a lighter trigger today, gunsmiths and home tinkerers accomplish that on the BHP all the time if so wished.
 
JM Browning died shortly after making the first prototype(s?). The finished pistol is different from the original prototype in many ways, external and internal. FN, successfully banked on the market popularity of Browning's name, and kept it attached to the gun. Rumor has it that the magazine disconnect was designed at the request of the French, who then declined to buy...

It was as much out of respect for "le maître" or the master as it was for marketing purposes that FN named the new gun The Browning High Power.

The magazine disconnect was part of the French contract requirements much like the thumb safety on the 1911. With contract guns like the 1911 JMB and other designers did what the contract specified. If they had ask for a beavertail it would have had a beavertail or pink grips if that was the spec.

Sports like IPSC and USPSA have diminished the desire for a 9 mm gun since there is Major and Minor Scoring and the .45 was King. Now the desire is a 1911 in .38 Super. For production the 9 is still used.

The 1911 frame offers a great trigger platform and many modifications for the shooter. One shooter I remember in the 80s was National Champion. He shot the .45 like no one else at the time but when it came to shooting steel targets he shot his High Power for the extra rounds it had.

In many of the sports now where Major is not needed the 9 mm has taken over. Look at Steel Challenge.

Too much emphasis is being placed on gun games in this discussion. 99% of 1911s or really any handgun purchased in the USA is never going to see gun game. The sports are very popular with people on gun boards and are growing but they are not as far reaching as people in this thread make them. The are sort of a version of inside baseball. If you stood at the big retailer like Buds gun in Lexington KY and asked 100 people who where buying guns what is IPSC or USPSA they vast majority I would estimate 90% would have no idea what you are talking about let alone know the difference between Major and Minor scoring.

People here think the gun games works is what drives manufacturers to make this vs that but really it is about what is avg joe who shoots less than 500 rounds a year going to think is cool that drives the manufacturers. Marketing and creating then feed consumers desires are what drive production not gun games or even performance for the mass market.

Thread seems lacking without pics:

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WVsig,

I've already told you hold much I like the BHP you show. Now stop it!

It makes the Nighthawk BHP look downright....well, downright......it could
at least have something like the stippling you have, not cat scratches.

One thing I've noted on the Nighthawk is that the pivot pin for the sear lever
is moved back a couple millimeters to gain better leverage. Your BHP
pivot pin location seems to be in the original spot. I don't know that it
helps a lot or not but I've seen the newer location done by some smiths.
Question ever come up on your gun?
 
One thing I've noted on the Nighthawk is that the pivot pin for the sear lever
is moved back a couple millimeters to gain better leverage. Your BHP
pivot pin location seems to be in the original spot. I don't know that it
helps a lot or not but I've seen the newer location done by some smiths.
Question ever come up on your gun?

I am not sure who is making the trigger for Nighthawk but mine is a Garthwaite trigger. The Nighthawk looks the same and uses the same terminology. "Competition". My trigger pin is in the stock location. I can't speak to if a change would get you better leverage.

http://garthwaite.myshopify.com/cart
 
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But by the 1980s, talk emerged that FN was going to drop the BHP. I found some quality issues with them at that time but then FN started having the BHPs assembled in Portugal and the quality and finish of them immediately improved. Portugal still had and apparently still does old-time craftsmen who could finish the pistols in the gun's time-honored tradition.

FN has been assembling BHPs in Portugal since about 1971. Prior to that small runs or batches were finished there is small shops. I agree 100% that FN was making use of lower production cost in Portugal but still getting old-time hand craftsmanship.

The confusion often arises from the birth of the assembled in Portugal rollmark which appeared in on guns destined for the US marking in the early 80's. This rollmark is not found on guns not intended to be shipped to the US market. The only exception being the FN rollmarked guns which were imported in the late 90's through Coumbia, SC and Fredericskburg, VA. These do not have the Portugal markings but were still assembled in Portugal.

The old wife's tale surrounding the rollmark is that FN misinterpreted the import rollmark rules and stamped US import guns "Assembled in Portugal" even though they did not have to but once it was done simply left it. This has never been confirmed.
 
WvSig & Uncle Ed, great discussion...I've learned a few things about that venerable old war-horse of a pistol. Not withstanding its 9mm caliber for the most part, my .40 is apple of my eye, far and away the best .40 I've owned. Accuracy with good hand loads is on the order of 2" or less at 25 yds...'bout all my 70 yo eyes can do anymore.

With the deactivation of the magazine disconnect, my trigger improved 100%. I'd estimate that it's in the 4.5 lb. range...perfect for my use since that's the same weight I have on my 1911's and a good CC weight too...ie. not to light for every day carry.

WvSig, is that a tritium front sight dot on your HP in the pic? I've wanted to improve the sights on my .40 (they're adj. now); and would prefer a lower to the bore pairing, but still retain a more ramped front (with the tritium dot) than yours and an adj. rear. Any suggestions?

Thanks for a good discussion, Rod
 
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I'm interested in picking one up to either build up or just to shoot.....

How do you recommend getting into a Hi Power? I see them for:

$400 - well used surplus

$600 - slightly improved surplus

$800 ish new in box


Any preference? I would like to end up with a BHP under $1000 with a good trigger, extended safety, some grip treatment and decent sights
 
WvSig, is that a tritium front sight dot on your HP in the pic? I've wanted to improve the sights on my .40 (they're adj. now); and would prefer a lower to the bore pairing, but still retain a more ramped front (with the tritium dot) than yours and an adj. rear. Any suggestions?

It is a gold bead. I find it to be faster than the tritium or white dot. If you want something that is adjustable and lower to the bore I would go with one of these two options.

This is a S&W revolver sight which has been installed into the slide. Don Williams of The Action Works can do that for you.

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The other way I would look to go would be a Bomar type sight like on this one. This one is actually a older Bomar sight but there are tons of 1911 versions that are currently available. Again a smith like Don Williams can install just about anything you want.

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If you have a particular 1911 adjustable sight setup I would call him and see what he can do for you.
 
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I'm interested in picking one up to either build up or just to shoot.....

How do you recommend getting into a Hi Power? I see them for:

$400 - well used surplus

$600 - slightly improved surplus

$800 ish new in box

Any preference? I would like to end up with a BHP under $1000 with a good trigger, extended safety, some grip treatment and decent sights

Used pistols are the way to go. Be patient. The best days for VG Israeli surplus guns is sadly over. Mach1 and CDI on Gunbroker have some but they are not the best examples. They have stayed in the same price range but what you are getting for the $$$ has gone down IMHO.

This is a decent MKII which has been reparked and would make a great candidate for a reblue. It is all original and matching in VG condition. $475

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You could send this to Don Williams and get his street package + one of his custom thumb safeties for $475 + $475 + $ 65 for the thumb safety but you are not going to get a full trigger job or a front strap stippling.

In order to get that you can step up to the Tactical Package which will get you everything you want but it would cost you $475 + $1180.

http://www.theactionworks.com/browning-hi-power/

The best route is to be patient keep cash on hand to pounce on the gun you really want and buy a VG to LNIB commercial BHP for $450 to $600. From there do the work. If it is going to be a high round count shooter get a MKIII because it will hold up better to high round counts, 25,000+. Early BHPs might or might not last that long.
 
"...the BHP was one of (albeit the main) wonder-nine..." The BHP is the original "wonder-nine". Suffered from "Cooperism" and NIH.
It doesn't need all the daft "modern" crappola.
"...magazine disconnect was part of the French contract..." Was a European police requirement. Not just French. Wasn't called a Browning anything anywhere but North America either. P-35 in Europe.
 
"...the BHP was one of (albeit the main) wonder-nine..." The BHP is the original "wonder-nine". Suffered from "Cooperism" and NIH.
It doesn't need all the daft "modern" crappola.
"...magazine disconnect was part of the French contract..." Was a European police requirement. Not just French. Wasn't called a Browning anything anywhere but North America either. P-35 in Europe.

Yes many in Europe referred to the BHP as the P-35 but the Browning Hi Power Automatic Pistol as not just a name for North America. They did not carry the Browning Arms rollmark because Browning Arms Co was the importer for North American not Europe but Brownings name was certainly attached to the pistol.

The FN pistols in Europe did have the "Browning Patent Depose" rollmark. Another thing to remember is that every JMB pistol design had been a leap forward for the automatic pistol. FN and Colt understood this. As someone else mentioned by the time of JMBs death FN and Colt had divided the world into 2 markets where each has exclusive rights to manufacture and market JMB design and patented pistols. Each would honor and protect the others patents.

Colt passed on the BHP design which is why they were hard to get in the US until Browning Arms Co became the importer in the 50s. Prior to that the BHPs in the US were European bring backs from WWII.

Another cool fact is that the BHP has the distinction of being the only service pistol issued by both Axis and Allied forces in WWII. The Germans took over the factory at Herstal and started pumping out pistols using the occupied labor. They removed the mag disconnect to help speed production. These guns are among the worst examples ever made. Some people claim the occupied workers sabotaged the pistols with poor workmanship others believe that the speed of production cause poor results. I assume a little of both is most likely true.

The Browning name had a long standing history in Europe attached to pistols and other long arms. FN understood it and certainly marketed to it with the BHP and other pistols.
 
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Actually, it was the other way around. FN had sold millions of "Browning" pistols, starting with the highly popular Model 1900, and the Browning name was well known and recognized in Europe and world-wide.

The first new pistol was basically the pistol of Browning's patent; that pistol, tested by the French in 1922, had the "Browning's Patent" markings, and so did the later pistols (until fairly recent times, when the U..S. marking was changed to "Browning Arms Co." and the second use of the name was dropped), even ones made under German occupation and ones made in Canada. So the idea that the pistol was called a "Browning" only in the U.S. is not true. In fact, even though the pistol was given different official names in various countries, the users generally called it "the Browning:". That was certainly the case with both the British and the Germans. The German official nomenclature was the P.640(b) (for Belgium), but the troops ignored officialdom and called it the "Browning".

Jim
 
The flood of double action wunder nines from Europe made the HP less special, and there wasn't a Browning or American cultural campaign behind it to make up for it. The HP also can't compare to the ultra-secure feeling that the 1911 has when cocked and locked. The HP would benefit from a heftier/more solid lever, which would make it a more attractive CCW option. Having said this, I love shooting my HP as much as anything, and have fired more rounds through it than any other pistol I've ever owned. It does require the most effort to rack the slide of any pistol I own however, including my .45s! :eek: I think of it as a built-in safety of sorts. Someone who is either very young or very old, or simply weak for whatever reason, couldn't rack the slide to save their lives. Or take mine.

The 1911 was unique, and there weren't many other highly regarded semi-auto .45s for a looong time. The benefit of forging its legend in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam cannot be overstated. The HP has no such legacy in the US.
 
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leaders

I think likely because the gun culture, and the many proponents of the 1911 at it's heyday, led us down that path. Cooper, Seyfried, Chuck Taylor, all shot 1911's, and the pistol was prevalent in the competitions of the day. The custom 'smiths and accessory people responded....and we all shot Colt's instead of Brownings.
 
A good complex question.

First, before the 1980s the U.S. was a nation of revolver shooters. Among those who shot handguns the wheelgun dominated. Semis were a smaller section of the market. Small back up semis were arguably more popular than bigger semis till late into the post war period.

Colt was the only American manufacturer to produce semis in a military caliber and that was the 1911A1 in 45 acp and 38 Super. The American public in general considered the 1911 a military sidearm. The gun in either caliber did not see widespread use in law enforcement in the U.S. That market was dominated by revolvers.

The pistol that most impressed the U.S. Army coming out of the war was the Walther P-38. So impressed were they that in 1946 when they drew up plans for a sidearm to replace the 1911 it was essentially for a gun based on features of the P-38. DA/SA guns began to be seen as much safer and modern.

Colt was the first American manufacturer to chamber a pistol in 9mm and that was with the Commander in 1948.

S&W produced and sold it's first semi-auto pistol in a military caliber in 1954. It had many of the desirable features of the P-38. Slide mounted safety/decocker, da/sa, 9mm, etc.

Other than a few war trophys few BHPs had been seen in the U.S. till the post war period.

In 1954 FN began importing the BHP into the U.S. in limited numbers.

During the 1950s and 60s war surplus rifles and handguns flooded the U.S. market. P-38s, Lugers, fine Spanish pistols, etc. most in 9mm and many times cheaper than the U.S. made products. Guns from Argentina, and Brazil, many based on the 1911 in 45 acp, also made a showing. Many of these were perfectly fine and excellent guns. If you wanted a 9mm you could get one for less than a weeks wages, often for less than the weekly grocery bill. These guns sold like hotcakes!

The BHP sold slowly but well over the years.

I'll skip a few things here, some already mentioned.

By the time the transition in law enforcement began in earnest in the 1980s the accepted doctrine on gunhandling for leos was that single action handguns were passe. The safest way and preferred way for law enforcement was da/sa, the long heavy first shot trigger pull, followed by easier single action trigger pulls, with a slide mounted decocker/safety. Firearms instructors taught this and it was almost universally accepted. The idea that a single action pistol like the 1911 or bhp was fit for police work only in elite units began to take hold. S&W semis ruled the roost till the M9 was adopted by the U.S. military than that gun began showing up in large numbers in cops holsters. The Sig too after a bit.

In a few years though the doctrine that weighed against the 1911 and the BHP, so solid, professional and sacrosanct, was overturned by the arrival of Glocks.

These guns don't need much. Improve on the trigger, better sights when needed, a better thumb safety. Over the decades there have been good smiths who can provide the features that are desired. FN itself never responded to the market as well as it could have I think. But their contracts have always been heavy on the military side.

tipoc
 
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