Why didn't modernized Hi Powers ever catch on?
- Thread starter DMK
- Start date
Some of you guys mention the fact that 1911s are made by so many manufacturers, but it wasn't too long ago when there were only a few companies that made true 1911s in mass production (Colt, Springfield, etc) along with a few custom makers that produced nearly hand made high end guns (Les Baer, Ed Brown, etc).
Maybe it was the fact that the BHP never really had those Les Baer, Ed Brown, Wilson Combat types making the dream guns?
It just surprises me that it never got the same production custom treatment being the BHP is a John Moses Browning creation much like the 1911, where the CZ75 and all the other Wondernines are not.
Maybe it was the fact that the BHP never really had those Les Baer, Ed Brown, Wilson Combat types making the dream guns?
It just surprises me that it never got the same production custom treatment being the BHP is a John Moses Browning creation much like the 1911, where the CZ75 and all the other Wondernines are not.
I was thinking that very thing as well. While 9mm has made an upturn in popularity and respect (starting in the 80s and ramping up sharply quite recently), historically it was not well respected in the US. First impression being lasting and all that, I thought that the prejudice against 9mm may have played some part in the BHP not being as popular as in might have been if it was originally chambered in "a real man's caliber". Chambering it in 40S&W seems like it came along a little too late.
scroadkill
New member
CZ75 = similar feel, less $, larger mags, more options. Once you try a CZ SA / Shadow / Cajunized / Sphinx / Tanfo etc the idea of a BHP just looses its appeal for most action shooters who prefer a heavy 9mm.
Bill DeShivs
New member
Until decent 9mm expanding ammunition was available in the 1980s, no one wanted a 9mm.
Agreed, "no one wanted a 9 mm" but with the proviso that is here, in the US.
The rest of the world, with a few exceptions, considered the 9 mm the standard/universal pistol caliber.
The writer/sometimes body guard Leroy Thompson wrote decades ago that he carried a BHP because it was easy to service and feed except perhaps in the U.S. and his clients were mostly overseas. His BHPs were supplied by Cylinder & Slide which still caters to that pistol.
The rest of the world, with a few exceptions, considered the 9 mm the standard/universal pistol caliber.
The writer/sometimes body guard Leroy Thompson wrote decades ago that he carried a BHP because it was easy to service and feed except perhaps in the U.S. and his clients were mostly overseas. His BHPs were supplied by Cylinder & Slide which still caters to that pistol.
rickmelear
New member
I would say next to perhaps thinner grips, the HP is perfect as is. Well, once the mag safety is removed. But that's a simple at home remedy.
scoobysnacker
New member
Yep. 9mm's just weren't a part of our culture until recently. My memory of handguns in movies/TV were: S&W revolvers for police, 1911's (we used to just call them Colt 45's) for military stuff. 9mm's were what the Germans used in WW2 movies, in Lugers and P38s; and they were 'bad guy' guns.
My memory of the 9 becoming popular was 3 models: the Beretta 92 (Die Hard, Lethal Weapon, and the US Military), the Glock wave, and the mysterious CZ 75, the "best gun nobody could get". Seems like the Sig craze is a lot more recent, and now we see Sigs everywhere on TV too; and they do look better than a Glock to me.
The Hi Power, undeniably a nice gun, was still mostly just a niche pistol, an older model that happened to be hi-cap.
noonesshowmonkey
New member
This is provincial question.
The BHP is probably the most manufactured western bloc pistol in the world, up until Glocks.
Just because the US market chose the 1911 due to a band of kool aide drinking Cooper wannabees doesn't mean that the BHP didn't proliferate. It in fact eclipsed the 1911.
The question is better phrased, 'why don't US manufacturer's build BHPs [instead of 1911s]?'
And the answer is because the alternative to the 1911 is the Sig or the Glock in the US market.
The BHP is probably the most manufactured western bloc pistol in the world, up until Glocks.
Just because the US market chose the 1911 due to a band of kool aide drinking Cooper wannabees doesn't mean that the BHP didn't proliferate. It in fact eclipsed the 1911.
The question is better phrased, 'why don't US manufacturer's build BHPs [instead of 1911s]?'
And the answer is because the alternative to the 1911 is the Sig or the Glock in the US market.
Sgt Pepper
New member
Quote:
I would say next to perhaps thinner grips, the HP is perfect as is. Well, once the mag safety is removed.
Hell yes. Rod
^^^
That x1000. Removing the mag safety is really the only mod needed. The black plastic thumb rest grips work well and feel good, but Spegel's thin delrin grips are incredible. The Navidrex grips that are available are similar to the Spegel's and also worth the purchase. If you have meaty hands like me, you may also want to install a C&S type II hammer for no bite. That is a much better option than adding a beavertail in my opinion.
I would say next to perhaps thinner grips, the HP is perfect as is. Well, once the mag safety is removed.
Hell yes. Rod
^^^
That x1000. Removing the mag safety is really the only mod needed. The black plastic thumb rest grips work well and feel good, but Spegel's thin delrin grips are incredible. The Navidrex grips that are available are similar to the Spegel's and also worth the purchase. If you have meaty hands like me, you may also want to install a C&S type II hammer for no bite. That is a much better option than adding a beavertail in my opinion.
Lots of bad info in this thread. So many misstatements it is hard to know where to start. noonesshowmonkey has it correct in that the FN/BHP is the most likely the #1 Western Bloc pistol ever produced in terms of the number of units produced. So many people in this thread are treating what is popular among shooting enthusiast as something universally true for the general public and the rest of the world.
There are a lot of people who purchase 1911s in this country but their overall numbers are small compared to guns like a Glocks or S&Ws M&P models. Look at the numbers from 2012. Kimber the #1 seller of 1911s produced 120,152 guns. Glocks US production topped that at 130,000 and most Glocks are made in Austria. The ones made here are mainly for export. Compare that to Ruger who made 865,671. In 2012 they had just released their 1911 and certainly did not sell as many as Kimber. https://www.shootingindustry.com/u-s-firearms-industry-today-2014/
1911s get a lot of play on the forums, gun rags, in movies and on TV but in reality they account for a small percentage of guns sales in the USA. They are popular but not as popular as the gun enthusiast crowd would have you believe.
The 1911 is popular primarily in the USA. It has not been adopted by many other countries as a service pistol. In fact the 45 ACP round is a very American caliber again not really all that popular outside the USA. The FN/BHP on the other hand has been used or adopted by by over 50 countries around the world as a duty side arm. So the idea that the 1911 is more popular only applies to the US.
The gun we shoot today is not the gun that JMB designed. It is much more Dieudonné Saive design than JMBs which also did not help its popularity in the USA.
There are a lot of BHP clones. There are FM Hi powers, Acurus, FEG & Kareens. They have been produced in varying numbers. They are not at the same level as CZ clones but the fact that CZs were a communist bloc pistol, which could not be imported, helped create their clones in the West more than anything else.
The real reason that the FN/BHP is not more popular here is because FN did not need it to be. They has contracts all over the world for the pistol and to this day they sell everyone that they produce. They concentrated on Military contracts not the US sporting market because they already had massive demand for the pistol. IMHO
There are a lot of people who purchase 1911s in this country but their overall numbers are small compared to guns like a Glocks or S&Ws M&P models. Look at the numbers from 2012. Kimber the #1 seller of 1911s produced 120,152 guns. Glocks US production topped that at 130,000 and most Glocks are made in Austria. The ones made here are mainly for export. Compare that to Ruger who made 865,671. In 2012 they had just released their 1911 and certainly did not sell as many as Kimber. https://www.shootingindustry.com/u-s-firearms-industry-today-2014/
1911s get a lot of play on the forums, gun rags, in movies and on TV but in reality they account for a small percentage of guns sales in the USA. They are popular but not as popular as the gun enthusiast crowd would have you believe.
The 1911 is popular primarily in the USA. It has not been adopted by many other countries as a service pistol. In fact the 45 ACP round is a very American caliber again not really all that popular outside the USA. The FN/BHP on the other hand has been used or adopted by by over 50 countries around the world as a duty side arm. So the idea that the 1911 is more popular only applies to the US.
The gun we shoot today is not the gun that JMB designed. It is much more Dieudonné Saive design than JMBs which also did not help its popularity in the USA.
There are a lot of BHP clones. There are FM Hi powers, Acurus, FEG & Kareens. They have been produced in varying numbers. They are not at the same level as CZ clones but the fact that CZs were a communist bloc pistol, which could not be imported, helped create their clones in the West more than anything else.
The real reason that the FN/BHP is not more popular here is because FN did not need it to be. They has contracts all over the world for the pistol and to this day they sell everyone that they produce. They concentrated on Military contracts not the US sporting market because they already had massive demand for the pistol. IMHO
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tahunua001
New member
the 1911 is kindof an odd example, from what I've noticed most steel/metal framed handgun designs change very little over time. usually the major changes are as new companies copy the designs they try and incorporate plastic and change rounds to angles and angles to rounds to make it look like it's not a complete copy.
larryh1108
New member
I am a BHP fan and think it is a great pistol.
Why hasn't it taken off like the 1911?
IMO,
1) Price. It has always been pricey compared to other offerings
2) It is "only" a 9mm. In America, .45ACP is king.
3) A company that had no interest in taking it to the next level.
Why hasn't it taken off like the 1911?
IMO,
1) Price. It has always been pricey compared to other offerings
2) It is "only" a 9mm. In America, .45ACP is king.
3) A company that had no interest in taking it to the next level.
Larry,
Your No. 3 I think is correct but Colt didn't take the 1911 to "the next level" until the mid 1980s. Prior to then, better sights, more open ejection ports,
beaver tail grip safeties all pretty much came from talented gunsmiths and
competitors who liked the 1911 as popularized by Jeff Cooper, among others.
I remember always reading about the Bianchi Cup and its champions and their latest 1911 upgrades.
It took forever for Colt to modestly respond. I remember its first "beaver tail" grip safety was a slender rod that did nothing to cushion recoil. It was worse, I thought, than the traditional tang safety that existed since the 1911A1.
Your No. 3 I think is correct but Colt didn't take the 1911 to "the next level" until the mid 1980s. Prior to then, better sights, more open ejection ports,
beaver tail grip safeties all pretty much came from talented gunsmiths and
competitors who liked the 1911 as popularized by Jeff Cooper, among others.
I remember always reading about the Bianchi Cup and its champions and their latest 1911 upgrades.
It took forever for Colt to modestly respond. I remember its first "beaver tail" grip safety was a slender rod that did nothing to cushion recoil. It was worse, I thought, than the traditional tang safety that existed since the 1911A1.
I don't see mention of the obvious reason, though I might have missed it. There were NO (again, NO) BHP's in the US prior to WWII, due to the Colt/FN agreement to stay out of each others' knickers. And until the agreement expired in the early 1950's the only FN pistols in the U.S. were those captured from the Germans and a few purchased in Belgium by travelers or (later) U.S. soldiers.
Plus, at that time, the idea of American troops and police being armed with a 9mm anything would have evoked loud laughter. Americans armed with a German caliber? What is the next joke? Americans driving Japanese cars? Too silly to even think about!
Jim
Plus, at that time, the idea of American troops and police being armed with a 9mm anything would have evoked loud laughter. Americans armed with a German caliber? What is the next joke? Americans driving Japanese cars? Too silly to even think about!
Jim
You beat me to it!
JM Browning died shortly after making the first prototype(s?). The finished pistol is different from the original prototype in many ways, external and internal. FN, successfully banked on the market popularity of Browning's name, and kept it attached to the gun. Rumor has it that the magazine disconnect was designed at the request of the French, who then declined to buy...
Actual numbers produced, as a reflection of CIVILIAN popularity is a red herring, when the manufacturer is supplying military contracts (of several nations) as well as the civilian market.
And yes, the 1911 and .45ACP were not adopted by many other countries, I can only think of Argentina and Norway. (countries equipped by the US don't count).
But consider this, FN marketed to the world, like Mauser and other European gunmakers. That was their business, and they were good at it. Until WWII, the only maker of 1911s was Colt, and Colt wasn't trying to arm the world as their primary business.
Don't know how anyone could not at least have seen a Hi Power, but I guess we've been living under different rocks.
I had a commercial Hi Power in the 80s, it was a sweet gun, with a couple of disgusting (to my 1911 trained self) features.
The grip felt wonderful. A nice plus. The safety was small, and felt mushy to me. A minus. You couldn't lower the hammer without a mag in the gun (unless you had long and strong fingers) and it too the proverbial 3 men and a boy to pull the trigger!! HUGE negative to me. (and another reason to dislike the French!
)Not deal breakers, just things about the gun that I felt should have been done better (safety) and done without (mag disconnector).
The main things that kept the Hi Power from being very popular in the US were, #1) it was a 9mm, #2) it was expensive. #3) not very common (see #1) kept it there, and by the time those things were being addressed, it had competition that was DA, and held even more rounds of 9mm, with lower retail prices.
HisSoldier
New member
After buying a BHP and working to lighten the trigger I know why the 1911 is so popular. What a weird mechanical ignition train! It's not a bad gun but it's no 1911.