Why didn't modernized Hi Powers ever catch on?

[Walt Sherrill]

If I recall correctly the CZ75 and variants has pretty good market penetration also.

CZ makes the same sort of claims as FN (if that's the firm making the claim) about their weapon being the most widely used... and they may be correct. But MOST WIDELY-USED SEMI-AUTO is different than he MOST USED SEMI-AUTO. The second part of that statement -- MOST USED -- is how most CZ enthusiasts interpret the CZ claim.

CZs are now in use in a lot of places, but still not in great numbers. It's only been in the past 8-9 years that any militaries have begun purchasing more than trivial quantities of CZs, and most of this seems to be in the Asian market.

Once Tanfoglio got into the "CZ-pattern gun" business with, by making, in effect, unlicensed copies, and later sold their own licenses to companies in Turkey and Israel, the number produced picked up. But only a fraction of the guns produced -- the earliest ones -- were true copies.

If there were as many as 11 million BHP/Hi-Powers in use by militaries or a large number of them in civilian hands around the world, I think we would have seen many more of them in the surplus (or used gun) markets than we've seen.​

I'll remain skeptical about the total numbr of BHPs in use, especially in civilian hands, around the world. The 11 million figure cited seems outrageously high -- being almost 5-times the number of 1911A1s the U.S. produced during WWII, needed for a very large standing army and allies! Where did all these BHPs go?

You must also appreciate that in parts of the world 9mm was (and in some cases, remains) a hard-to-get, tightly-controlled round that is military-use only, and not available to civilians.

That said, you (or the FN rep) may be right I'll try to be a bit more open-minded about how many were actually produced; while I'll remain skeptical, I will try to see if I can find better data, too.

 

[tipoc]

It's worth looking at, total figures I mean.

I was just looking at the book, "ARS Mechinica-The ultimate FN Book" for some figures. They do provide some for certain time periods. As FN says in the book...

Without violating the rule of discretion, which this type of business imposes, we list below the nations...

to which they provided a large quantity of arms and ammunition.

They do say that from 1950-1964 about 250,000 HP pistols were produced at the FN plant in Belguim (pg. 253). This does not count the licensed producers outside Belgium. Those producers must be counted if we look at how widespread the HP was as a military sidearm. This was a small number compared to the flood of machine guns, rifles, artillery, ammunition of all types that roared out of FN during that same period.

We can't guess how many handguns sold on the new and used commercial market. One example is that supposedly after the Falklands war, where both sides used the BHP, thousands of HPs were confiscated by the British from the Argentines and many made there way to the commercial market. A long standing rumor but possibly true where "the rule of discretion" is common in this industry.

CZ's claims were always questionable. So are Glock's.

I've heard and read that Glock produced over 10 million guns by 2015. But I found no claim for that number at Glock's website when I went looking for it a couple of years ago. I did see on their time line a claim for 7 million at a certain point and they were proud of that, but no claim for 10 million. If true I assume they would trumpet it all over.

I just looked at the Glock Magazine for 2017 "One World-One Pistol" (is that a promise or a threat?) and they say in roughly translated English...

"For the first 10 years (meaning '92-'82) it was produced and sold in 45 states (countries) around 350,000 units, of which 250,000 in the U.S. Then the real boom happened and at present it is more than 7,000,000 pieces and for example in the U.S.A. Glock has a 65% market share of the armed forces."

By "the armed forces" they mean the leo market and some military. The 65% likely means that 65% of law enforcement has some Glocks and is not that 65% of all leos or enlisted men and National Guard are armed with Glocks. Two different things.

If anyone has a solid figure on what they have produced, a statement or press release from Glock for example, I'd like to see it.

FN is a giant conglomerate. A dominant figure in the production of war material. They have been that for a long time and are still. They are less likely to be nimble in the handgun market place and they have not been.

By comparison CZ is small and nimble in the production of commercial pistols and rifles. So is Kimber...tiny. Ruger? small.

tipoc

 

[Walt Sherrill]

They do say that from 1950-1964 about 250,000 HP pistols were produced at the FN plant in Belguim (pg. 253). This does not count the licensed producers outside Belgium. Those producers must be counted if we look at how widespread the HP was as a military sidearm. This was a small number compared to the flood of machine guns, rifles, artillery, ammunition of all types that roared out of FN during that same period.

FM-built BHPs under license, for the Argentine military. Argentina didn't then and still doesn't have a gigantic military. the UK, Canada and Belgium used BHPs (including some Inglis-made versions) for their militaries. Again, none of those countries had large militaries. Were there some other licensed producers? (India might be one, and they would have used a lot of BHPs., but they haven't been mentioned by anyone but me in this discussion.)

If the totals cited above are correct and FNH made 250,000 BHPs from 1950 thru 1964, that could mean they were making as few as 15,000 BHPs a year; but maybe they started slow and ramped it up?

Let us also generously assume that various producers MIGHT have made up to a million BHPs through WWII (i.e., before 1950)! That may be stretching it.

If so, FNH would still have had to produce produce almost 200,000 BHPs a year for the next 50+ years (from '64 - '17) to come close to the 11 million gun production totals. (The figures cited seemed to imply a much earlier date for that 11M figure.)

That seems like an almost-impossible jump in production capabilities and sales. I'm trying to be open-minded, but I remain skeptical.

None of this is meant to suggest that the BHP isn't a fine weapon, especially if the trigger and action have been tuned. My BHP (a T-series 9mm) has been.

 

[falnovice]

I tend to agree regarding total production, though without knowing the amount manufactured during wartime and the amount made under license throughout its history it becomes a very difficult number to nail down. I seem to recall that FN made something over 300,000 during the Nazi Occupation, but I have no idea how many were made by Inglis.

Regarding the surplus market, I really don't have an answer for that. I seem to recall that the BHP was officially adopted by something like 93 militaries at it's height. I understand most of these purchases are tiny compared to our military, but still I haven't seen them on the surplus market. To some degree one would expect to. Of course there is the possibility that a large number of them are still in use in these countries and haven't yet been cashed out.

I believe, as I stated before, that the largest share was the LEO market outside the US.....but I have no idea how to quantify that with anything resembling accuracy.

In terms of manufacturing capability I have no doubt that FN could do that if they wanted to and had the demand. FN isn't like GLOCK; there are a huge manufacturer.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember reading that besides millions of FALs, FNCs and M16s FN also manufactured the majority of the UZIs in existence under license from IMI. Something to the tune of 6-7 Million? Then there is the MAG which has been going since the 50s and the M2, though I have no idea what the production numbers are.

FN could definitely crank out enough BHPs if the demand was there, I have no doubt of that. Whether there was demand and where it came from, that I cannot confidently answer.

Great discussion guys.

 

[tipoc]

I agree with you Walt. I think that 11 million BHPs is too high a figure for production of Hi-powers and their clones.

The source I cited previously, Stevens, says there were only 4 countries that produced the BHP under license from FN. Canada, Argentina, Venezuela and Nigeria. All the others I mentioned produced unauthorized clones, that includes India (though they may have had an unofficial assist from the Canadians and British).

I think falnovice makes an error in his estimates of how many BHPs were produced and how many are or were on the commercial market. 11 million is too high.

We don't know how many were produced. More research will tell some. But a good deal of that information, particularly regarding some military contracts, is, or was secret.

I think for this discussion they are also kinda irrelevant.

The BHP developed a reputation during WWII but I think it's biggest role was after the war, from the 1950s till the early 80s. It wasn't the numbers that were important but who had them and what they did with them.

tipoc

 

[tipoc]

The Turkish gunmaker Tisas is producing a clone.

They are getting them in Canada.

http://tandtarms.com/canuck-pistols-in-stock/

tipoc

 

[ammo.crafter]

Hi Power

Novack, Nighthawk, Robar, Cylinder & Slide, Jim Garthwaite Custom, and many others perform customization on the Hi-Power.

Perhaps it's the look of the Hi-Power; some find it like an ugly duckling compared to the 1911.
Perhaps it's the 9mm; I wonder where the HP would be if originally offered in 45.

The trigger is completely different from a 1911...more like a revolver feel too it.

Don't get me wrong, I am a die hard 1911 fan and have several but once you get use to the HP it's a joy to shoot.

 

[WVsig]

The Turkish gunmaker Tisas is producing a clone.

They are getting them in Canada.

http://tandtarms.com/canuck-pistols-in-stock/

tipoc

Yeah I wish they had gone with a MKIII+ sort of clone instead of a C Series clone. Of course they are not coming with Nighthawk grips. LOL I like the ring hammer but wish they had redone the safety.

I replace the safeties on a lot of my BHPs. Pretty much anything that might be called into defensive roll. One argument for the older style nub safety is that most US shooters use it incorrectly. We are used the 1911 style thumb safties where you use the meat of your thumb to lower the lever.

I once read that the BHPs original thumb safety was designed to be swiped off more with the first joint in your thumb. The small safety fits right into that joint. I have tried that with my older BHPs and it works better than trying to use the meaty part of the thumb past that first joint. That said if I could get Mr. Garthwaite to make me 10 of his safeties I would replace every single one of mine with one of his.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

If the price quoted for the Turkish gun is a street price, I think I'd go for a good, used BHP before I'd spend that much for a new clone. It might be available for less in the future.

 

[tipoc]

The link to the Tisas is from a Canadian site so Canadian dollars, exchange rate, 1 Can. about .76 cent usd. an exchange rate calculator says a bit less than $560. msrp or maybe that is the street price, I don't know.

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...hange+rate+canadian+dollars+to+u.s.+dollars&*

WV is right though no significant customization to it, older sights, etc.

Poking around FN did make alloy framed versions of the, as did the Argentines. They also made a cut down version similar to the FM Detective. But they did not continue with these or push them much. I'm not sure that either one was marketed in the U.S. by FN or Browning out of Utah.

tipoc

 

[HankC1]

Tisas 1911 is sub $400 and they want this much for a BHP! I have a few Hi Power clones, Arcus, FEG, FM and CD, none of them cost me over $250. When CDNN had those $400 FN BHPs on clearance sale, I thought it is expensive!

 

[WVsig]

Poking around FN did make alloy framed versions of the, as did the Argentines. They also made a cut down version similar to the FM Detective. But they did not continue with these or push them much. I'm not sure that either one was marketed in the U.S. by FN or Browning out of Utah.

Alloys were Austrian LEO contract guns.

Here is mine after it went to Don Williams of the Action Works.

 

[tipoc]

Tisas 1911 is sub $400 and they want this much for a BHP!

I don't know what they're selling for anywhere else other than that one place in Canada. I posted that place cuz it had a picture. Note their selling the 1911 for about the same. If CDNN gets them they'll be less.

tipoc