Why are the Republicans so worried about Ron Paul?

While other states say it's perfectly ok to get stoned and the federal government steps in and wags its finger. That is not in line with the constitution.


My dear Fremmer, you are mistaken. I have no desire to get high, nor to get drunk. It is merely that there is no constitutional authority for the federal government to prevent it if I chose to do so.

(Big sigh). O.K., I'll bite. From Gonzales v. Raich, 125 S. Ct. 2195 (2005):

GONZALES, ATTORNEY GENERAL, et al. v. RAICH et al.
No. 03-1454.
Argued November 29, 2004
Decided June 6, 2005

CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT

California's Compassionate Use Act authorizes limited marijuana use for medicinal purposes. Respondents Raich and Monson are California residents who both use doctor-recommended marijuana for serious medical conditions. After federal Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) agents seized and destroyed all six of Monson's cannabis plants, respondents brought this action seeking injunctive and declaratory relief prohibiting the enforcement of the federal Controlled Substances Act (CSA) to the extent it prevents them from possessing, obtaining, or manufacturing cannabis for their personal medical use. Respondents claim that enforcing the CSA against them would violate the Commerce Clause and other constitutional provisions. The District Court denied respondents' motion for a preliminary injunction, but the Ninth Circuit reversed, finding that they had demonstrated a strong likelihood of success on the claim that the CSA is an unconstitutional exercise of Congress' Commerce Clause authority as applied to the intrastate, noncommercial cultivation and possession of cannabis for personal medical purposes as recommended by a patient's physician pursuant to valid California state law. The court relied heavily on United States v. Lopez, 514 U. S. 549, and United States v. Morrison, 529 U. S. 598, to hold that this separate class of purely local activities was beyond the reach of federal power.

Held: Congress' Commerce Clause authority includes the power to prohibit the local cultivation and use of marijuana in compliance with California law. Pp. 6-31.

(a) For the purposes of consolidating various drug laws into a comprehensive statute, providing meaningful regulation over legitimate sources of drugs to prevent diversion into illegal channels, and strengthening law enforcement tools against international and interstate drug trafficking, Congress enacted the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970, Title II of which is the CSA. To effectuate the statutory goals, Congress devised a closed regulatory system making it unlawful to manufacture, distribute, dispense, or possess any controlled substance except as authorized by the CSA. 21 U. S. C. §§841(a)(1), 844(a). All controlled substances are classified into five schedules, §812, based on their accepted medical uses, their potential for abuse, and their psychological and physical effects on the body, §§811, 812. Marijuana is classified as a Schedule I substance, §812(c), based on its high potential for abuse, no accepted medical use, and no accepted safety for use in medically supervised treatment, §812(b)(1). This classification renders the manufacture, distribution, or possession of marijuana a criminal offense. §§841(a)(1), 844(a). Pp. 6-11.

(b) Congress' power to regulate purely local activities that are part of an economic "class of activities" that have a substantial effect on interstate commerce is firmly established. See, e.g., Perez v. United States, 402 U. S. 146, 151. If Congress decides that the " 'total incidence' " of a practice poses a threat to a national market, it may regulate the entire class. See, e.g., id., at 154-155. Of particular relevance here is Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U. S. 111, 127-128, where, in rejecting the appellee farmer's contention that Congress' admitted power to regulate the production of wheat for commerce did not authorize federal regulation of wheat production intended wholly for the appellee's own consumption, the Court established that Congress can regulate purely intrastate activity that is not itself "commercial," i.e., not produced for sale, if it concludes that failure to regulate that class of activity would undercut the regulation of the interstate market in that commodity. The similarities between this case and Wickard are striking. In both cases, the regulation is squarely within Congress' commerce power because production of the commodity meant for home consumption, be it wheat or marijuana, has a substantial effect on supply and demand in the national market for that commodity. In assessing the scope of Congress' Commerce Clause authority, the Court need not determine whether respondents' activities, taken in the aggregate, substantially affect interstate commerce in fact, but only whether a "rational basis" exists for so concluding. E.g., Lopez, 514 U. S., at 557. Given the enforcement difficulties that attend distinguishing between marijuana cultivated locally and marijuana grown elsewhere, 21 U. S. C. §801(5), and concerns about diversion into illicit channels, the Court has no difficulty concluding that Congress had a rational basis for believing that failure to regulate the intrastate manufacture and possession of marijuana would leave a gaping hole in the CSA. Pp. 12-20.

Congressional power to regulate interstate commerce grants congress the power to prohibit the possession of marijuana.

So I'm confused about all of the debate here. Your remedy to legally possess and consume marijuana lies with congress. Simply convince them to repeal the statutes prohibiting the possession of marijuana, and you can dull your mind with marijuana as much as you want. But the statutory prohibition against the possession of marijuana is certainly not unconstitutional.
 
Congressional power to regulate interstate commerce grants congress the power to prohibit the possession of marijuana.
And you don't see how that's wrong?

How do I affect interstate commerce by growing and smoking my own pot?
So I'm confused about all of the debate here. Your remedy to legally possess and consume marijuana lies with congress. Simply convince them to repeal the statutes prohibiting the possession of marijuana, and you can dull your mind with marijuana as much as you want. But the statutory prohibition against the possession of marijuana is certainly not unconstitutional.
Oh! Simply convince Congress. Right, it's so simple.
 
So when California says it's ok for a doctor to prescribe marijuana for a patient how exactly is the state deciding the issue here?

Oh right, commerce clause. Because Mrs Raich purchased her marijuana from a Californian that only grows in California and only sells to Californians that means she wouldn't be buying pot from someone in Arizona and thus taking herself out of interstate commerce which means the federal government has a say in it.

That really has nothing to do with states prohibiting drugs. In most cases state cannot pass a law that has a content based restriction on speech. That becuse it violates the fundamental right of freedom of speech, enumerated in the 1st amendment.

A state CAN pass an outright prohibition on narcotics. This doesn't run afoul of anything in the constitution. If you had a fundamental right to smoke dope, the state couldnt pass such a law.

I agree that the feds have no power to regulate things not in interstate commerce, and pot grown instate for personal use isn't in interstate commerce. All this means, however is that the feds cannot regulate it. It does not mean you have a fundmental right to smoke pot.
 
What the ****? Did you even read my post? :confused:

I gave you a clear example of a STATE allowing the use of marijuana and pointing out that it's the FEDERAL government's ban I have issue with.
I agree that the feds have no power to regulate things not in interstate commerce, and pot grown instate for personal use isn't in interstate commerce. All this means, however is that the feds cannot regulate it. It does not mean you have a fundmental right to smoke pot.
You were the one that suggested that in order to rally against it. I did not say that smoking pot is a fundamental right.
 
yuh huh :p post 106, in reply to me

While I don't want to get into another subject about drugs, suffice it to say that its perfectly constitutional for the feds to ban narcotics coming from outside the country. Its also perfectly fine for states to completely ban narcotics. If smoking dope were a fundamental right, no state could ban narcotics.
This was right after I pointed out that the federal government banning pot is not in line with the Constitution. The reason I gave was not that it's a "fundamental right" but that the states are the ones with the authority to regulate it in the first place.

Now if you and Fremmer agree with the courts that growing your own drugs and smoking them - without ever once affecting the market in any way, shape or form - is considered "interstate commerce", that's your choice.
 
And none of that is in conflict with anything you have said.

This was right after I pointed out that the federal government banning pot is not in line with the Constitution.

Sure it is. Anything coming from outside the country is clearly in interstate commerce. Like it or not, lots of pot come in from out of the country. I can't tell you what percentage or how much exactly, but it does. Hundreds of thousands pounds of pot are siezed at the border in San Diego every year.

While I don't doubt that lots of pot is grown here, lots of it comes from down south as well.

Its fully within the power of the feds to regulate or ban this.
 
Sure it is. Anything coming from outside the country is clearly in interstate commerce
Oh my god.

Once again, not all drugs come from outside the country in the first place. Also, growing my own pot would mean that I'm not getting it from outside of the country.
Like it or not, lots of pot come in from out of the country.
I quite like the pot that comes from Vancouver, as a matter of fact, but you'll have to qualify "a lot" because there is quite a bit of pot that's also grown here. It'd be interesting to know just how much falls into each category but you cannot continue to claim that all - or even most - the pot is coming from out of the country.

I can't tell you what percentage or how much exactly, but it does. Hundreds of thousands pounds of pot are siezed at the border in San Diego every year.
And how many millions of pounds are grown and consumed in the state of California alone?
While I don't doubt that lots of pot is grown here, lots of it comes from down south as well.

Its fully within the power of the feds to regulate or ban this.
No ****.

But that doesn't mean that regulating the stuff that I can grow IN MY OWN FRAKKING BASEMENT is under the federal government's authority to regulate.
 
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Redworm, I really don't know what your deal is. I completely agree with you that if you're growing weed in your basement for personal use, its not in interstate commerce. I havent said anything to suggest otherwise.

However, you've said several times that the feds can't regulate pot. Thats simply not true. They can regulate pot in interstate commerce. That includes stuff coming from out of the country, as well as stuff grown here thats crossing state lines. Forget about that as well?

At the end of the day however none of this matters because none of this has anything to do with Duncan Hunter, or whether he should have voted no on some needle exchange program.

And as an aside, I'm kind of surprised that no one has brought this up, but the vote was for needles and pot in DC. You know, that district that the feds have direct control of.
 
Congressional power to regulate interstate commerce grants congress the power to prohibit the possession of marijuana.

That is certainly the view of the entire left wing of the Supreme Court. The majority opinion was written by Justice Stevens.

Justice Stevens went out of his way in the Lopez case to write a separate dissent. He agreed with the primary dissent, but felt compelled to add this:

Guns are both articles of commerce and articles that can be used to restrain commerce. Their possession is the consequence, either directly or indirectly, of commercial activity. In my judgment, Congress' power to regulate commerce in firearms includes the power to prohibit possession of guns at any location because of their potentially harmful use; it necessarily follows that Congress may also prohibit their possession in particular markets. The market for the possession of handguns by school age children is, distressingly, substantial....

I don't think his view of the commerce clause is correct, and agree with Justice Thomas, who said this about it:

The majority’s rewriting of the Commerce Clause seems to be rooted in the belief that, unless the Commerce Clause covers the entire web of human activity, Congress will be left powerless to regulate the national economy effectively. ... The interconnectedness of economic activity is not a modern phenomenon unfamiliar to the Framers. ...Moreover, the Framers understood what the majority does not appear to fully appreciate: There is a danger to concentrating too much, as well as too little, power in the Federal Government. This Court has carefully avoided stripping Congress of its ability to regulate interstate commerce, but it has casually allowed the Federal Government to strip States of their ability to regulate intrastate commerce–not to mention a host of local activities, like mere drug possession, that are not commercial.

One searches the Court’s opinion in vain for any hint of what aspect of American life is reserved to the States. Yet this Court knows that “ ‘[t]he Constitution created a Federal Government of limited powers.’ ” .... That is why today’s decision will add no measure of stability to our Commerce Clause jurisprudence: This Court is willing neither to enforce limits on federal power, nor to declare the Tenth Amendment a dead letter. If stability is possible, it is only by discarding the stand-alone substantial effects test and revisiting our definition of “Commerce among the several States.”

While I agree that fighting prohibition laws in Congress is a fine approach, I won't stop questioning and fighting what I see as unconstitutional usurpation of power by the Congress until we "revisit our definition of 'Commerce among the several States.'" The two approaches are not mutually exclusive, and both should be pursued by anyone who does not agree with the way Justice Stevens would apply the commerce power to guns.
 
Now if you and Fremmer agree with the courts that growing your own drugs and smoking them - without ever once affecting the market in any way, shape or form - is considered "interstate commerce", that's your choice.

Like it or not, the majority of the United States Supreme Court has held that it is considered interstate commerce. That's the law. It doesn't matter what the minority/dissenting opinion thinks, what Ron Paul thinks, or what I think.

Now, if you're talking about an issue of legislative policy rather than a Constitutional right to smoke dope, then all you have to do is to convince a majority of congress to repeal the law.
 
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Just thought I'd change the tone of the debate a little bit.
 
the majority of the United States Supreme Court has held that it is considered interstate commerce
There is a difference between what is constitutional and what is upheld by a SC majority.
When deciding for oneself whether a SC decision is truly constitutional, it helps to look at how which justices decided what.
Sometimes they stick with precedence, even if the precedence did not look at the constitution itself to make the decision.
At least one justice has said that they should look to the laws of other countries to see if we are in line with them.
I'm inclined to attach more importance to the decisions of justices who are thought to be constructionists as they are more likely to actually consult the constitution in their decisions. (Justice Thomas re: Raich)

Let's relate this to another situation; basketball, for instance.
Fans tend to know most of the rules while those who don't care pobably only know that the rules exist.
Those directly involved (players and coaches and refs) know the rules more intimately.
The rules are created by a rules committee, then voted on by the teams' owners.
Sometimes teams take unfair advantage of the rules, or there is an honest dispute.
That's where the refs come in. They decide if what was done fits within the rules. They decide if the shooters foot was behind the 3-point line or not. It is not in their purview to decide that the 3-point rule no longer applies.
And sometimes, in their decisions, they are wrong, and the team and the fans have to live with that particular decision for that situation.

It does not change the actual rules nor people's understanding of the rules.
 
I've read that Al Gore's residential electricity usage is 10X what's normal for his area. It immediately occurred to my that he's growing marijuana indoors. How else could he use so much electricity?
 
Redworm, I really don't know what your deal is. I completely agree with you that if you're growing weed in your basement for personal use, its not in interstate commerce. I havent said anything to suggest otherwise.
Not directly but all of your posts make that very strong implication.

However, you've said several times that the feds can't regulate pot. [/quote]No, I said they can't regulate it within states. They're not supposed to be allowed to regulate how California deals with it. That's my point. That's always been my point.
Thats simply not true. They can regulate pot in interstate commerce. That includes stuff coming from out of the country, as well as stuff grown here thats crossing state lines. Forget about that as well?
No, and I pointed out that I have no issue with that. I have issue with them regulating the stuff that has absolutely zero to do with interstate commerce. If the flow of international drugs to America were to be suddenly cut off I wouldn't shed a tear nor would there be any significant impact on the amount of marijuana consumed in the country.

There are plenty of Americans that would be happy to take on the extra load.
At the end of the day however none of this matters because none of this has anything to do with Duncan Hunter, or whether he should have voted no on some needle exchange program.

And as an aside, I'm kind of surprised that no one has brought this up, but the vote was for needles and pot in DC. You know, that district that the feds have direct control of.
Correct on all counts. But I wasn't talking about that. :confused: I believe I originally replied to a sarcastic comment about having a right to get high.
 
It is impossible to regulate the right to get high. Take away all the drugs and people will just fast and then spin in circles in their back yard until they pass out and see "God". People like to get high, you can't make people not do something they like to do.
 
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