Why all the Taurus hate?
- Thread starter PatrickBateman
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I am suggesting that if one wanted to they could compile the data from forums like this. I personally don't feel the need to. I have shot and handled enough Taurus pistols to know I do not care to own one. In the end without more scientific data anecodotes and personal experience is all we have to go on.
I think that you are misapplying logic here. No one is making statements of logical fact. The OP asked why are Taurus guns hated by so many. Many people have answered that question. He did not ask for scientific data. He did not ask for metallurgic analysis. He asked for opinion and he got opinions.
You however for some reason have decided to come into the discussion and try to make it into some sort of data analysis which it was never intended to be.
So take it for what it is worth. Peoples opinions on Taurus.
What I also find funny is that in the same post where you accuse people of being logical errors you commit a several classic logically fallacies.
Does one have to be an expert in one of those fields to form an opinion? If so, very few would be able to participate in these forums. What are your qualifications? Am I allowed to raise the bar to make your qualifications irrelevant?
NO. Thou I don't have the evidence, I'd bet S&W sells more guns than Taurus, and yet the claims of shoddy QC appear higher with Taurus. This is 100% anecdotal, so feel free to shoot holes in my theory.
I never said faultless. I feel better spending more money on something like a S&W. I think it's a better product, and if there is an issue, I know S&W will resolve it. This is how I feel. It's an emotion based purely on my own observations. I don't own a Colt, and I'm not an expert in one of the many fields you listed above, so I can't comment on them.
Thankfully we have people like you to correct another persons opinion.
Cheapshooter
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Just by the number of models, and availability of Taurus guns that claim is very doubtful.
Cheapshooter
New member
And experience with Taurus ownership?
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/09/26/brazilian-police-recall-98000-taurus-247-ds-pistols/
The São Paulo State Military Police (PMSP), a gendarmerie tasked with the state’s non-investigative police work, have recalled all of the 98,000 (no, not a typo) .40 S&W Taurus 24/7 DS pistols issued to their personnel after discovering that some of them could be discharged without the trigger being pulled. In the video below, from SBT.com.br, demonstrates how easily the faulty pistols can be discharged … - See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...0-taurus-247-ds-pistols/#sthash.T8n25kQ6.dpuf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9_YWNo1f-o
Defeito na PT 24/7 taurus faz arma disparar. Malfunction makes gun fires by itself
Not a scientific study or data analysis but it is an interesting internet anecdote. These are Taurus Brazil not Taurus USA guns but still.
The São Paulo State Military Police (PMSP), a gendarmerie tasked with the state’s non-investigative police work, have recalled all of the 98,000 (no, not a typo) .40 S&W Taurus 24/7 DS pistols issued to their personnel after discovering that some of them could be discharged without the trigger being pulled. In the video below, from SBT.com.br, demonstrates how easily the faulty pistols can be discharged … - See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...0-taurus-247-ds-pistols/#sthash.T8n25kQ6.dpuf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9_YWNo1f-o
Defeito na PT 24/7 taurus faz arma disparar. Malfunction makes gun fires by itself
Not a scientific study or data analysis but it is an interesting internet anecdote. These are Taurus Brazil not Taurus USA guns but still.
Evil Monkey
New member
^^^^^Potential Misinformation.
From what I have understood, those pistols were modified by retarded "gunsmiths".
I have a taurus 24/7 pistol and firing the weapon by shaking it is IMPOSSIBLE unless you did two things:
1. Remove the firing pin block safety.
and
2. Grotesquely file down either the sear or striker foot.
There's no other way.
From what I have understood, those pistols were modified by retarded "gunsmiths".
I have a taurus 24/7 pistol and firing the weapon by shaking it is IMPOSSIBLE unless you did two things:
1. Remove the firing pin block safety.
and
2. Grotesquely file down either the sear or striker foot.
There's no other way.
No need to guess, the BATF compiles statistics on manufacturing and imports.
In 2011 (the last year data is available), S&W manufactured 643,797 handguns.
https://www.atf.gov/files/statistic...inal-firearms-manufacturing-export-report.pdf
In the same year, 2011, the total number of handguns imported to the U.S. from Brazil was 359,846.
https://www.atf.gov/files/publicati...-in-the-us-annual-statistical-update-2012.pdf
Even if, for the sake of argument, we ignore Imbel (a Brazilian gunmaker who makes handguns that Springfield Armory imports) and Rossi (another Brazilian handgun maker whose products are available in the U.S.) and assume that all of the handguns imported from Brazil were made by Taurus that would still mean that S&W produced about twice as many handguns in 2011 as Taurus imported to the U.S. during the same timeframe.
All 98,000 were modified? If that's the case, why would Taurus recall them? A manufacturer has no responsibility to insure that their products function when modified by anyone, let alone by someone who is mentally impaired.
Evil Monkey
New member
Why wouldn't they recall all of them? There is no evidence that ALL of the pistols behaved that way and there was no mention of the gunsmiths. They took no risks, thus, recalling all of them.
These pistols that were recalled are built the same way the US versions of the 24/7 are. They are the same thing. And there is no way the pistol can fire like depicted in the video unless insane modifications are made to it like described in my earlier post.
I don't know exactly what taurus came up with in terms of an answer, but I read somewhere that unauthorized gunsmiths were to blame for some of these pistols malfunctions, in which tuarus did not know about.
I give Taurus enough credit that they would be able to do the same analysis you did to verify that the gun can't malfunction that way without "insane modifications". Which gets us back to the point that manufacturers don't recall items simply because some nut finds a way to screw them up.
Obviously the two concepts are contradictory.
If Taurus knows as much about the pistols they make as you do (and I think that's a given) then they know that the guns can't malfunction in that particular manner without being modified. If they know they are modified then they wouldn't recall them since recalls are to address manufacturing defects or design flaws, not "insane" user modifications.
Therefore, the fact of the recall (which is not in question) only makes sense if we assume that one or both of the following is true:
1. Taurus doesn't know how their pistols work.
2. The malfunctions are not the result of user modifications.
This is also problematic from a logical standpoint. If the U.S. guns are identical to the recalled guns, and Taurus believes that there's sufficient reason to recall the Brazilian guns, then what possible rationale could they have for not recalling the U.S. guns too?
This is a very interesting subject but a lot of the information seems to be contradictory--at least it doesn't make sense with only the currently available data.
Do you recall where you read that the malfunctions were user induced?
Also, where did you find the information indicating that the U.S. 24/7 pistols are identical to the pistols being recalled in Brazil?
I've only owned a couple over the years, both revolvers. One was a six shot 38 just slightly bigger than a J-frame and the other was a 7 shot .357 snubbie. Both shot okay and were not bad guns, but they were a bit heavy and while not what I would call cheap guns, they did have seem to be of a somewhat lesser quality to other more popular brands.
Although no experience with them, I would generally avoid their semi-auto pistols.
Although no experience with them, I would generally avoid their semi-auto pistols.
Evil Monkey
New member
They DIDN'T know they were potentially modified.
It was years ago. I can't find it. A link from a forum, to a blog, etc.
It never said the malfunctions were deliberately user induced. Just that there is history of local gunsmiths in Brazil servicing police weapons and trouble happening as a result.
From what I understand, the 24/7 series were designed for Brazlian Police forces predominately, then distributed them to the US. There is no evidence that shows the US variants being mechanically different than the brazilian police versions.
Cheapshooter
New member
You are also under the wrong assumption that every gun Taurus produces are sold in the United States.
Do you have world wide numbers for both companies?
You got me curious so I started poking around.
http://www.guns.com/2013/09/30/dont-shake-massive-recall-brazilian-mps-taurus-247-pistols-video/
"Thankfully this is an issue that only affects the pistols used by the São Paulo State Military Police (PMSP), not all 24/7 DS pistols and no American guns."
That would explain a lot.
So, in all likelihood, you are correct (based on your analysis of a U.S. pistol) that the U.S. pistols can't malfunction in this manner unless modified. That would explain why Taurus is behaving as if the pistols in question are defective (by recalling them) and also why they haven't recalled any U.S. pistols.
Here's a more recent article (mid 2014) indicating that Taurus has attempted to remedy the problem in the recalled guns by replacing parts but has not been fully successful. Given the circumstances, this also supports the idea that this is not a problem with the U.S. guns since Taurus Brazil does not appear to be claiming that this is a problem with unauthorized modifications. If the guns are defective and if the U.S. guns were identical then they would have to recall the U.S. guns or risk tremendous liability.
http://abordagempolicial.com/2014/08/promotor-alerta-sobre-defeito-em-pistola-usada-pela-pmesp/
"Some parts of the pistols were replaced by the manufacturer , according to the command of the Military Police in São Paulo, which confirmed the review. The fault , however , persisted and some guns fired unexpectedly . There were also shots in a row after the first shot .
The command , through the Media Center, said that the weapons had defects were collected and replaced. Also according to the command , the factory has pledged to solve the problem and waiting for a ' final and conclusive report ' . "
The command , through the Media Center, said that the weapons had defects were collected and replaced. Also according to the command , the factory has pledged to solve the problem and waiting for a ' final and conclusive report ' . "
I made no assumptions or claims about Taurus production. I provided S&W total handgun PRODUCTION figures but the figure relating to Taurus was the number of handguns IMPORTED to the U.S. from Brazil.
The only assumptions I made were:
1. That we were comparing sales of S&W and Taurus in the U.S. That seems reasonable given the overall context.
2. That the number of handguns imported to the U.S. annually from Brazil is approximately equal to the number of Taurus sold in the U.S. annually. That is a reasonable assumption given that Taurus is the largest gunmaker in Brazil.
3. That the annual production of S&W handguns is approximately equal to the annual sales of S&W handguns in the U.S. That is a reasonable assumption given that the report shows that S&W exported only about 37,000 handguns in 2011.
Cheapshooter
New member
So if Taurus sells as many guns in the rest of the world as they do in the U.S. their actual production, and therefore the potential for a problem is higher.
Are there more problems with Taurus guns? Probably. Are the problems with Taurus guns exaggerated? Most likely. Especially by those who don't like anything (except Glock) not made in the United States, and those who want to join in without ever having any experience with the product.
Are there more problems with Taurus guns? Probably. Are the problems with Taurus guns exaggerated? Most likely. Especially by those who don't like anything (except Glock) not made in the United States, and those who want to join in without ever having any experience with the product.
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