Who will US Army pick

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My take on things is give the people who USE pistols the best tool for the job and honestly I think that tool is probably the Glock 19, which seems to be making its way through the various military special operations circles into the hands of the guys who train and use handguns fairly often.
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Geezzzz , don't you know there's no common sense allowed in these arguements?

Ok , now Glocks aren't my cup of tea.........that said give folks a choice between Glock platforms and SIGs for the guys who don't like striker fired and the vast majority of guys will be quite satisfied.

Either platform earned their reputation for good reason and based upon *performance in field conditions.*..........
 
Freethought, I'm with you 100% on this one.

There are tons of "in theory" and "they do XYZ" when in fact, nothing is in stone.

I have a friend who was with Group 7 SF. He carried his own personal Glock 21.

People who revolve their carry weapon choice around what others carry make no sense to me whatsoever.
 
A Dose of Realism

Posted by Freethought:
Ok , now Glocks aren't my cup of tea.........that said give folks a choice between Glock platforms and SIGs for the guys who don't like striker fired and the vast majority of guys will be quite satisfied.
The Army is not going to issue, to the same units, firearms with magazines that are not interchangeable, or that do not use the same holsters, or that require different parts and tools for maintenance.
 
The Army is not going to issue, to the same units, firearms with magazines that are not interchangeable, or that do not use the same holsters, or that require different parts and tools for maintenance.
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Beg to differ , at least in the aspect of the various SF organisations. Been there already seen it done and experienced it.

As far as " rank and file" yes you are correct , but the the brass being the recto-cranially impacted entity that it is they're not going to have the common sense to just go to something easily serviced ,easily maintained , economical and reliable such as the Glock.

And I'm quite cognisant of realities , SIG will never meet price point for rank and file usage.
 
What is OFTEN decided by pistols is the longevity of the individual fighting man (or woman), so equipped. If I was incapable of no other feeling in the matter, I would want the sidearm carefully selected, so as to increase the longevity of the combatant so equipped.

If I was a soldier looking to preserve my longevity, I'd leave the stupid pistol back in the tent and just carry two more magazines.
 
And I'm quite cognisant of realities , SIG will never meet price point for rank and file usage.

I believe they plan to enter the P320. In that case I don't see why they can't meet the price point.
 
Freethought said:
And I'm quite cognisant of realities , SIG will never meet price point for rank and file usage.

They did with the P226 when the Beretta 92F/M9 won. The cost of the gun was less than the Beretta 92F IIRC but Beretta won because of the overall total cost.

The cost of the P320 is much lower than the P226. The P320 in 9mm sells for less than $450 all the time to the general public.
 
I believe they plan to enter the P320. In that case I don't see why they can't meet the price point.
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I'll believe that striker fired *anything* will compete for the contract when I actually see it and not before.

The brass doesn't have that much common sense........Bruce Gray thinks very highly of the 320 , convinced me to give one a try or two , overall I think it's a better unit than the Glock. But IF striker pistols compete for the contract I'd hazard a guess that the Glocks will come in lower pricewise than the 320 will.

In reality I'd bet that what's going to happen is going to amount to a lot of jawing and nothing done , at least not in a timely manner if at all.
 
I'll believe that striker fired *anything* will compete for the contract when I actually see it and not before.

The brass doesn't have that much common sense........Bruce Gray thinks very highly of the 320 , convinced me to give one a try or two , overall I think it's a better unit than the Glock. But IF striker pistols compete for the contract I'd hazard a guess that the Glocks will come in lower pricewise than the 320 will.

In reality I'd bet that what's going to happen is going to amount to a lot of jawing and nothing done , at least not in a timely manner if at all.

Which is why this is a total waste of time and money.
 
I am not totally convinced the 320 will cut the mustard when the real hard testing starts. The SIG of today isn't what it used to be IMO.

Now most everything I have seen of the 320 to this point has been good and I am not saying it sucks I just am curious what will happen once hard military trials or large agency trials begin.

SF seems to be whole 'nother beast in regards to this. This is for a general duty sidearm and frankly there are plenty of options that have good history, are fairly inexpensive, made by large reputable companies and would be as good as anything as the average soldier will probably never make real use or get lots of training on a handgun. (I am not saying issue crap or unproven arms mind you. I realize for that one dude during the worst day of his life it needs to work and work well) I am just saying the selection process is likely different and needs to be different from what the high speed low drag guys need/use.

SF does so very many different jobs that require so many different tools that my guess is even if they were to more or less to standardize on an arm (Glock 19 for example) they will still have lockers of different tools for different jobs. I mean how often does a soldier need deep concealment vs. say somebody in the SF community and that's just one example. not to mention suppressors, etc. etc.

I do think they are wasting more money by not just pushing forward and getting it over with so to speak.
 
If I was a soldier looking to preserve my longevity, I'd leave the stupid pistol back in the tent and just carry two more magazines.
That would depend upon what you were supposed to be doing.

If you were in an enclosed vehicle operating remotely operated devices with special mission systems and looking at screens showing data and images from sensors on them, someone just might reasonably conclude that a pistol would suit you better than an M4.
 
Ahh hell why not .500 magnum revolvers for everybody. If nothing else it might very well give pause to our enemies as we must surely be crazy and nobody likes to fight crazy. :D
 
They did with the P226 when the Beretta 92F/M9 won. The cost of the gun was less than the Beretta 92F IIRC but Beretta won because of the overall total cost.

The cost of the P320 is much lower than the P226. The P320 in 9mm sells for less than $450 all the time to the general public.
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Of course the 320 is a lower price point than the 226. As for why the 226 wasn't chosen instead of the M9, there's quite a bit more to it than that and a lot of it is political and contract asskissing by brass in certain places.

1) The Sig scored slightly higher than the Beretta.

2) Beretta dropped it's price 18% at the last minute, presumably because it may have obtained leaked price info from the Sig bid. Originally the total cost for the Beretta contract was $84 Million, and the Sig bid was $75 Million.

3) Only the Sig and Beretta passed the technical and reliability standards. The HK P7M13, S&W 459M, Walther P88, Colt SSP, FN-Herstal BDA, and Steyr GB all failed or were withdrawn voluntarily.

4) The Sig pistol was cheaper even after the 18% price drop. The difference in cost on the final contract was only $3 Million, all in the cost of magazines and spare parts.

5) The choice to adopt 9mm was solely on the basis of NATO and domestic caliber standardization. Congress denied funding for a continuation of the M1911A1 and any .45 ACP related programs to force the JSO to make this decision.

6) Testing consisted of a field trial of 275,000 rounds done to test the performance of 30 guns (sometimes as few as 2 of each make) in dust, mud, sand, and salt water. Further testing included temperature variables (hot / cold) and testing by personnel of differing size, gender, and experience.

7) The Army stated quite clearly that .38 caliber revolvers; "have inadequate overall effectiveness; poor maintainability and life expectancy in combat conditions, low-lethality, poor reliability, lack of rapid reloading ability, and small ammunition capacity."

8) HK's P7M13 lowest score on the conditional reliability testing was 99%. It blew the doors off of the Sig P226 and Beretta 92. It scored a 100% on the dust test.

9) The Sig suffered in the dry mud environment, but scored more than 50% higher on the standard reliability testing than the Beretta. The Sig P226 scored a 2,877 to the Beretta's 1,750 to the Colt M1911A1s 162. The numbers reflect the average number of rounds fired between stoppages.

10) Two of the five pistols submitted in 1981 for reliability testing by Beretta accounted for two-thirds of the malfunctions.

11) Reliability between each lot of guns and the individual guns in the lot varied on a factor of 300 - 1400%; that's just comparing Sig to Sig, Beretta to Beretta.

12) The Sig P226 originally in 1981 had a significant issue with the shape of it's firing pin causing a large number of failures to fire. It was reshaped (sharpened) for the 1984 trial and eliminated the issue.

13) You can fire approximately 6,253 rounds through a Sig P226 before the frame cracks with no maintenance. In comparison, the M1911A1 control frame failed at around 3,500 rounds.

14) Sig originally had no frame failures in the 7,000 round testing in 1981. The frame was milled out to improve mud and debris performance, and the resulting hollow sections are where the cracks propagated. Thus, pre-1981 Sigs are certainly more reliable in a long term environment.

15) In the 1984 reliability testing, the Sig P226 had only one malfunction that required an armorer and finished with a total of 12 stoppages. The Beretta had 20 stoppages, with 9 of them requiring an armorer. Thus, you have a near 50% chance that within 1,700 rounds your Beretta 92 will suffer a complete malfunction and require significant maintenance. I can attest from personal experience that this is true of the commercial 92FS from a hard use perspective. The predominance is frame cracking.

16) The M1911A1 had a mean round count of 162 between stoppages, and had a total of 220 stoppages; only 25 required an armorer. I suspect frame cracking was a large part of the issue with the M1911 due to their reliance upon the recoil spring to provide sufficient dampening to the slide during the recoil phase.

17) The Sig P226's firing pin invariably caused roughly 70% of the failures in the 1981 trial.

18) Beretta USA at the time purchased the pistols from Italy for $178.50, and sold them at a retail price of $515.

19) There was significant posturing and lobbying from the Italian government in favor of awarding the contract to Beretta. It was seen that this could be averted by awarding the contract to Beretta USA on the notion that eventually the pistols would be made in Accucreek, MD.

20) The trials were done half-assed and with numerous holes in the methods of testing. The Army and Air Force did not have a standardized method for testing the guns, and relied upon "better than M1911" performance standards as the basis of the testing. As a result, some of the testing numbers were overlooked such as the Sig dry mud testing due to testing methodology shortcomings.

21) Sig sued the US on the basis that the number of replacement parts was not aligned with reliability figures. The significantly more reliable P226 required no replacement parts in 5,000 rounds, yet the pricing quotations stipulated a set number of parts, and in some instances those parts were double counted due to being difficult to field fit, small in size (easily lost), and other variables. The trial was thrown out.

In the end, the US Army should have awarded Sig (SACO) the contract on the basis that it was a more reliable and more cost effective gun. It would seem that the SEALs chose the wiser option in the long run.
 
In comparison, the M1911A1 control frame failed at around 3,500 rounds.
Wow really??? The forged steel frame failed that early? Fluke????? I am just shocked the steel frame failed before the alloy SIG frame especially with abuse.

You mentioned the P7M13, are you saying it was the LEAST reliable or most reliable. (99% good or 99% of the time bad?) Just curious.

Chris
 
Wow really??? The forged steel frame failed that early? Fluke????? I am just shocked the steel frame failed before the alloy SIG frame especially with abuse.

You mentioned the P7M13, are you saying it was the LEAST reliable or most reliable. (99% good or 99% of the time bad?) Just curious.
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99 percent good , in the end it should have come down to the HK or the Sig.

As a long time 1911 enthusiast I'm not actually surprised at the frame failures.
 
Cutting and pasting info that someone else wrote as if it was yours is a bit disingenuous don't you think or do you also go by the handle Texas1911?
 
Ahh hell why not .500 magnum revolvers for everybody. If nothing else it might very well give pause to our enemies as we must surely be crazy and nobody likes to fight crazy.

Sounds good to me but those might be considered portable artillary pieces rather than side arms.:D
 
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