Who will check Bush's alleged abuses of power, and what of the future?

[joab]

next time it may be you or your youngun's who have to stand for hours on a box blindfolded and in fear of impending death

yeah they might start putting crying women prisoners on TV or show Asian prisoners begging for their lives. If they get real ticked off they may broadcast a man screaming while they saw his head off.
Why televised executions of non combatants could become almost common place.

 

[Rob P.]

yeah they might start putting crying women prisoners on TV or show Asian prisoners begging for their lives. If they get real ticked off they may broadcast a man screaming while they saw his head off.
Why televised executions of non combatants could become almost common place

So this justifies us doing the same? Because they do it, it's ok if WE do it too?

Aren't we supposed to be above that sort of thing? Especially since we're talking about "war" and not "terrorism".

In my mind I picture a Marine in full dress blues. Standing at attention that Marine epitomizes the essence of our country. Strength, courage, and honor. Tell me what Abu Grabe did to that image. Tell me that since the other guys can do horrible things to innocent civilians that our Marines in dress blues are justified in doing them also.

Tell me where the strength, courage and honor is in that.

 

[DonR101395]

Also, I'm not sure many truly appreciate and understand the religious and cultural differences existing between our cultures. Regardless of your personal views on this stuff, they take their belief system much more seriously than is the case for much of the "west"
This wasn't towel snappin'!

I've taught, fought, worked and lived in Muslim countries for the last eight years, I fully understand their culture, religion and personal views. I've made some very good aquaintances in some real sh&*hole parts of the world, but as an infidel I'm no better than a goat in their eyes. I accept this as part of their culture and really don't give a damn if a captured muslim finds rock and roll and sleep deprivation offensive. Your right this ain't no towl snappin', it's alot deeper than that. The way in which they butcher the prisoners is identical to the way they butcher goats. The knife they used on Berg and the others is a butcher shop knife used only for the slaughter of animals, mainly goats. So until we start butchering them like goats and really insulting them this ain't torture.

 

[joab]

So this justifies us doing the same? Because they do it, it's ok if WE do it too?

Who's head did we chop off what non combatant prisoners have we executed on international TV? Are you even trying to follow this conversation

Aren't we supposed to be above that sort of thing? Especially since we're talking about "war" and not "terrorism".

The incidents were investigated and people have been prosecuted over the incidents. You might have heard about that. Besides the fact that I already pointed it out, it was in all the papers

In my mind I picture a Marine in full dress blues. Standing at attention that Marine epitomizes the essence of our country. Strength, courage, and honor. Tell me what Abu Grabe did to that image. Tell me that since the other guys can do horrible things to innocent civilians that our Marines in dress blues are justified in doing them also.

Now why would I do that when I have already stated, in this thread, that the abuses constituted dereliction of duty, conduct unbecoming and criminal mistreatment of prisoners. I even used those same words.

Don't try the twisty-boy thing, it won't work my comments are still available for perusal.

And Abu Gharib was under the control of the army.
That an many other statements made about the intel and people involved at the prison tell me that you need to do further research on the matter

 

[joneb]

Quote:
Nobody cared to keep Hitler in check and look what happened.

The irony.

The irony of it is, how can the worst of human history be allowed to repeat
Our leaders on both sides at the start agreed with the entell. then as always the demacrats changed there minds.

 

[pipoman]

So, in essence, these people abused, humiliated, and denigrated the prisoners for NO REASON AT ALL.

I disagree, people become irrational and may talk when stressed over a period of time. The type of stress is irrelevant. Sleep deprivation works, that is why it is implemented. We can speculate how accurate the information is but without actual statistics I choose to trust the expert interrogators.

Rob P. have you ever had the opportunity to set in on an Army interrogation of one of our soldiers accused of a violation of CMJ? I have. If the same interrogation techniques were used on a civilian by LEO, with witnesses, the defense attorney would be turning cartwheels all over the courthouse.

I guess we really don't know how much usable intelligence has been gathered using emotional/psychological manipulation. But, if it works.....

 

[Rob P.]

Who's head did we chop off what non combatant prisoners have we executed on international TV? Are you even trying to follow this conversation

Yes I am. In fact I seem to be the only one keeping his facts straight.

Don't try the twisty-boy thing

I'm not the one trying to twist things to fit their own ideas.

Did I say that we had actually chopped someone's head off? No. Did I allude to that? Again, No. Did I say that we had executed anyone on international TV? No. Alledge it? NO one more time. So WHO is the one trying to twist things here. Not I.

And your argument smacks of "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" which ain't the way to run a war OR a nation.

More proof of spin:

And Abu Gharib was under the control of the army.

I guess that makes it all right since it was the ARMY and not the Marines? And if that's not your point with this statement, then why did you make it? It has no bearing on anything otherwise.

If people would actually READ the things I write and think about them before they started blasting off they'd understand that in this case it doesn't matter which branch of the service is involved. No matter which branch, it STILL reflects badly upon the country and the people here. I used the Marine example metaphorically because just about everyone can picture dress blues. Too bad the example was wasted on those who would rather piss on the towel heads than stand with dignity and honor while representing my country.

I disagree, people become irrational and may talk when stressed over a period of time. The type of stress is irrelevant.

Yeah, proper interrogation techniques are done by Pfc fluffynits in the corridor of the prison right? I mean afterall, we sure want all the other prisoners to know that Muhammed just gave it all up over being oogled by a woman in uniform. Tough guy that Muhhamed, took him all of 2 minutes before he was sweating bullets and ratting on his buddies. Oh wait, these guys were in low security cells because we already knew they had no useful intel. Mostly because they weren't even combatants.

"Nevermind Seargent, just put 'em back in their cells. Ok, AFTER we take the pictures put 'em back. Say cheese...."

Rob P. have you ever had the opportunity to set in on an Army interrogation of one of our soldiers accused of a violation of CMJ? I have

And this has relevance to the torture of the Abu Grabe prisoners in what way? They were't being "interrogated" as we knew they had no useful intel. They were't one of ours and there was no violation of the UCMJ by the prisoners (the soldiers certainly but not the prisoners since our UCMJ doesn't apply to their conduct). So, this comment is meaningless in this discussion.

The incidents were investigated and people have been prosecuted over the incidents. You might have heard about that. Besides the fact that I already pointed it out, it was in all the papers

Yeah, I think I remember hearing something about it. Seems to me that a courtsmartial for a few soldiers and 20 trillion people the world over calling it "torture" ought to give notice that people ought to wake the heck up because it probably WAS torture no matter what some backwater hick in this country says. We're just damn lucky that no one was able to prove it was a war crime. All it would have taken was ONE officer in charge to have been proven to have ordered the actions and it WOULD HAVE BEEN a war crime. This type of thing is so disgusting to the rest of the world it's still haunting us 2 years afterwards.

But hey, it's was just a little dereliction of duty. No harm, no foul. Right?

Wrong.

 

[joab]

Did I say that we had actually chopped someone's head off? No. Did I allude to that? Again, No. Did I say that we had executed anyone on international TV? No. Alledge it?

Lets see

So this justifies us doing the same? Because they do it, it's ok if WE do it too?

In response to this?

yeah they might start putting crying women prisoners on TV or show Asian prisoners begging for their lives. If they get real ticked off they may broadcast a man screaming while they saw his head off.
Why televised executions of non combatants could become almost common place.

What exactly were you alluding to?

I guess that makes it all right since it was the ARMY and not the Marines? And if that's not your point with this statement, then why did you make it? It has no bearing on anything otherwise.

Actually I pretty much explain that that and many other statements made about the intel and people involved at the prison tell me that you need to do further research on the matter I explained this by saying

That an many other statements made about the intel and people involved at the prison tell me that you need to do further research on the matter

'm not the one trying to twist things to fit their own ideas

.Actually yes you are. But as typical you are too caught up in your argument to see that you are arguing points that are not there. You are trying very hard to show that I condone the behavior of the soldiers when I have repeatedly condemned it.

Seems to me that a courtsmartial for a few soldiers and 20 trillion people the world over calling it "torture" ought to give notice that people ought to wake the heck up because it probably WAS torture no matter what some backwater hick in this country says.

20 trillion huh, that more of them metaphor thingies us hicks can't understand

We're just damn lucky that no one was able to prove it was a war crime. All it would have taken was ONE officer in charge to have been proven to have ordered the actions and it WOULD HAVE BEEN a war crime.

Thank you for proving that you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

Twisty-boys, twisty-boys
Not much signal
But a lot of noise

Thayt's one of them there diddies us hicks sing whilst we's diddlin our sisters

 

[pipoman]

And this has relevance to the torture of the Abu Grabe prisoners in what way? They were't being "interrogated" as we knew they had no useful intel. They were't one of ours and there was no violation of the UCMJ by the prisoners (the soldiers certainly but not the prisoners since our UCMJ doesn't apply to their conduct). So, this comment is meaningless in this discussion.

What is your source for this information? How do you know they didn't have any useful information?

The point of the interrogation techniques used while interrogating our soldiers is...The Rules Are Different For The Military...Application of Civil Rights enjoyed by our Citizens does not apply to War Criminals.

Yeah, I think I remember hearing something about it. Seems to me that a courtsmartial for a few soldiers and 20 trillion people the world over calling it "torture" ought to give notice that people ought to wake the heck up because it probably WAS torture no matter what some backwater hick in this country says. We're just damn lucky that no one was able to prove it was a war crime. All it would have taken was ONE officer in charge to have been proven to have ordered the actions and it WOULD HAVE BEEN a war crime. This type of thing is so disgusting to the rest of the world it's still haunting us 2 years afterwards.

Are these the same 20 trillion who were bilking the Oil For Food program? Who voted repeatedly for UN Resolution after resolution with no intention of enforcing the resolutions? Who had no reaction to the beheading of Americans and other Allies? Who burn US Flags and Effigies of our President? Who would rather placate Muslim extremists even though they continue to suffer terrorist attacks in their own countries? Who would love nothing more than for America to be defeated in The Mid East? Who probably would not enjoy the level of freedom they now enjoy if it were not for American bloodshed? Who cares what they think? They will be against the US no matter what we do, again Who Cares? This same cast of characters were against the US during The Cold War, against US occupation of Japan, in fact against the US at every opportunity unless they can somehow benefit from US bloodshed or tax payer dollars.

 

[okiejack]

Ilovemyak47,

The key word used by the topic poster was "Torture". I saw no evidence of torture at all.

I am well aware that terrrorists and terrorist supporters use propaganda as part of their statigy of divide and conquer.

Your last paragraph was very emotional but contained nothing that I would respond to reasonably. I am sure that Osama is thankful for your support.

Did you notice that the terrorists have not been able to attack us here in the USA since President George Bush started the war on terror? Maybe you should be more observant of the facts of this matter.

 

[Redworm]

Did you notice that the terrorists have not been able to attack us here in the USA since President George Bush started the war on terror? Maybe you should be more observant of the facts of this matter.

Indeed but another fact is that correlation does not indicate causation. For all we know Mr bin Laden's plan is working exactly how he wants it to; the nation is divided, we're losing civil liberties to a false sense of security, we're losing servicemen and women in combat, the rest of the world is looking down on us, and he doesn't have to worry about Bush being here in just a few more years.

Just because we haven't been attacked since Bush began his little Yeehad doesn't mean he's the reason for it.

 

[Ilovemyak47]

"I'm sure osama is thankful for your support"...that's the singlemost retarded yet played statement in history thanks to people like you...with that same quote attorney general gonzales justified NOT investigating whether or not bush in innapropriately using wiretaps (think it's just limited to terrorists? wait till it's onanyone not playin ball). Please, using such a line is insulting. STOP DRINKIN THE COOLAID!


fisa courts? we don't need no stinkin fisa courts, mang.

 

[Al Norris]

I caught myself up on this thread when I came home from work this morning at around 0630 MST. Figured I would go and get some shuteye and re-review it when I had a clearer mind...

It's now about 1200hrs. Nothing has changed. We disagree on even what torture might be. We're still slinging mud at anyone who disagrees with us...

This thread is serving no other purpose than as a pissing contest.

Closed.