Who will check Bush's alleged abuses of power, and what of the future?
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Ilovemyak47
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The similarities are startling.
Rimrock,
My argument is not really about your father. It is obvious that he was one who was willing to sacrifice for his nation. It was men like him who made this nation free, and has kept it free.
My argument with you is that you seem unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to fight this kind of war, and I do not believe your father would feel the same way.
You like so many others seem quick to criticize the President, but you have not alternate plan to win the war on terror, and prefer to blame GWB.
The points you attempt to make regarding the Katrina sitution, and others indicate to me that you hate the president and nothing he could do would please you except to resign.
Frankly, it is largely nonsense.
I do not normally make these personal, and so I am withdrawing from this discussion. Make any comment you desire.
Jerry
My argument is not really about your father. It is obvious that he was one who was willing to sacrifice for his nation. It was men like him who made this nation free, and has kept it free.
My argument with you is that you seem unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to fight this kind of war, and I do not believe your father would feel the same way.
You like so many others seem quick to criticize the President, but you have not alternate plan to win the war on terror, and prefer to blame GWB.
The points you attempt to make regarding the Katrina sitution, and others indicate to me that you hate the president and nothing he could do would please you except to resign.
Frankly, it is largely nonsense.
I do not normally make these personal, and so I am withdrawing from this discussion. Make any comment you desire.
Jerry
I'm not a Republican
I'm not a Democrat either. But our President George Bush is the best president I've seen.
No! I saw no torure at Abu Ghraib. And I think this is one of the Bushophobes most grievious lies.
Yes there was collaboration, cooperation, agreement, financial and moral support by Saddam of terrorism and Al Quida. Saddam also had WMDs. This saddens the Bushophobes and that's okay.
Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, Communists, Socialists are trying to make the USA out to be the baddie once again and by doing so hope to lose us another war that we need desparately to when. Just like Vietnam. And that's the only accurate comparison between Vietnam and the war on terrorism that I can see.
I'm not a Democrat either. But our President George Bush is the best president I've seen.
No! I saw no torure at Abu Ghraib. And I think this is one of the Bushophobes most grievious lies.
Yes there was collaboration, cooperation, agreement, financial and moral support by Saddam of terrorism and Al Quida. Saddam also had WMDs. This saddens the Bushophobes and that's okay.
Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, Communists, Socialists are trying to make the USA out to be the baddie once again and by doing so hope to lose us another war that we need desparately to when. Just like Vietnam. And that's the only accurate comparison between Vietnam and the war on terrorism that I can see.
Originally posted by JerryM
Thank You, JerryM. You're obviously a gentleman and you are passionate in your beliefs. For that I tip my hat!
Approximately four days after 911 I wrote a letter to the President with words of encouragement and praise.
It's sadly the opinion of an overwhelming majority in this great land that our support was grossly misused. In a world of real threats like trade deficits with China, N.Korean and Iranian wackos with nukes, we grossly misused are reputation, financial resources and human treasures to topple a dictator who the world had in check. I believe history will record this accurately.
In the meantime this great forum provides us with a chance to articulate, vent in our own style and inject our own slant on the World.
I do find it fascinating that each of us are capable of so identifying with our own "guy" that it can quickly degenerate to the "US & Them" which I've referred to in other posts.
Was Clinton a choir boy? Hardly, nor was GWHB 41, or Reagan. My point is that GWB was so uniquely unequipped for the job and has cost this country dearly by his mismanagement. Somehow we were manipulated to our own detriment. It wasn't the American electorates finest hour. History tells us that fear and insecurity are ugly but effective motivators.
My hope for the future is we elect someone based on their managerial skills, talents, intellect, understanding of the world, love for America and her citizens.
My fear is we won't learn and future elections will be based on such nonsense as who we wish to marry and the reproductive functions of our bodies.
Let's hope I'm wrong!
Rimrock
Thank You, JerryM. You're obviously a gentleman and you are passionate in your beliefs. For that I tip my hat!
Approximately four days after 911 I wrote a letter to the President with words of encouragement and praise.
It's sadly the opinion of an overwhelming majority in this great land that our support was grossly misused. In a world of real threats like trade deficits with China, N.Korean and Iranian wackos with nukes, we grossly misused are reputation, financial resources and human treasures to topple a dictator who the world had in check. I believe history will record this accurately.
In the meantime this great forum provides us with a chance to articulate, vent in our own style and inject our own slant on the World.
I do find it fascinating that each of us are capable of so identifying with our own "guy" that it can quickly degenerate to the "US & Them" which I've referred to in other posts.
Was Clinton a choir boy? Hardly, nor was GWHB 41, or Reagan. My point is that GWB was so uniquely unequipped for the job and has cost this country dearly by his mismanagement. Somehow we were manipulated to our own detriment. It wasn't the American electorates finest hour. History tells us that fear and insecurity are ugly but effective motivators.
My hope for the future is we elect someone based on their managerial skills, talents, intellect, understanding of the world, love for America and her citizens.
My fear is we won't learn and future elections will be based on such nonsense as who we wish to marry and the reproductive functions of our bodies.
Let's hope I'm wrong!
Rimrock
Ilovemyak47
Moderator
okiejack, lets go down the list...
so no degrading/humiliating/wrong treatment at abu ghraib? umm...ok, i suppose none of that in cuba either (cuba of all places?!).
Support of al queda from saddam? where? As for him having wmd's?? not since the first gulf war. where are they now? getting to them? c'mon. There were no traces of al queda in iraq until we came in and set up shop, not before.
I love how it's always 'those other ______ (liberals, progressives, etc)' bastards trying to put america down and make us lose another war'...What part about the 'war on terror' have you not realized to be BS? War on terror, please, you don't fight terror, you fool, you grow up and stop waging a war against fear. You've been poisoned, yet you still drink the koolaid, why? You want another vietnam/iraq comparison? They're both needless wars in which the president starting it is too afraid to visit the wartorn country he started with. Saddam didn't start this war, and if he had, it should have been dealt with decades ago, any new 'wmd's' or 'nationbuilding' excuses are just that, excuses. Wake up people.
so no degrading/humiliating/wrong treatment at abu ghraib? umm...ok, i suppose none of that in cuba either (cuba of all places?!).
Support of al queda from saddam? where? As for him having wmd's?? not since the first gulf war. where are they now? getting to them? c'mon. There were no traces of al queda in iraq until we came in and set up shop, not before.
I love how it's always 'those other ______ (liberals, progressives, etc)' bastards trying to put america down and make us lose another war'...What part about the 'war on terror' have you not realized to be BS? War on terror, please, you don't fight terror, you fool, you grow up and stop waging a war against fear. You've been poisoned, yet you still drink the koolaid, why? You want another vietnam/iraq comparison? They're both needless wars in which the president starting it is too afraid to visit the wartorn country he started with. Saddam didn't start this war, and if he had, it should have been dealt with decades ago, any new 'wmd's' or 'nationbuilding' excuses are just that, excuses. Wake up people.
Just because the treatment was degrading, humiliating, and very VERY wrong does not mean that it qualifies as torture. Torture is a completely different level of abuse. Torture is the removal of fingernails and eyelids. Torture is having jolts of electricity directed at internal organs. Torture is having every bone in your hands and feet broken, one by one, every day. Torture is whippings so bad that your back is left showing more muscle than skin.
What happened at Abu Ghraib was wrong, very wrong. But it was not torture.
Ilovemyak47
Moderator
I'll question the actions, but I will not question the torturing because it's not torture. I have no idea why some soldiers did what they did. It was unprofessional and unnecessary, as I don't believe making these prisoners strip and pose for pictures was involved in interrogation in any way. Was it a sophomoric prank? Probably. Was it wrong and a black mark for our servicemen and women? Absolutely. Should we allow it? No. Should we equate our soldiers who did this with the *&^%bags who cut off living people's heads? Never.
Under what definition does "torture" actually fall? Does it only apply to purely physical pain or abuse? Or does it also apply to mental abuse?
In my mind, anything which takes advantage of a cultural taboo and uses it to cause physical and/or mental anguish IS torture. Even if no physical scars are left, what about the mental scars? Mental scars which can totally destroy a person's self esteem to the point you should have just killed that person when done as it would be more humane.
Soldiers kill and capture people. They don't take photographs of them after forcing them to act like trained dogs. They don't pose in pictures while people stand blindfolded in fear of being eletrocuted if they moved. A soldiers job is to kill and capture. Nothing more or less is required of a soldier.
Was it torture? Certainly. And those who dismiss it as equal to the B.S. that plebe's have to go through miss the point. Even PLEBE's have a right not to be tormented to the point of public humiliation. Yet they volunteered for that treatment while the "prisoners" had no such choice.
If you think it wasn't torture, think again and examine why YOU fail to see it.
Ilovemyak47
Moderator
but wait a sec, you don't think that at some point some guy from langley comes in, orders the peon soldiers out, and starts hookin up the jumper cables? And how many iraqis imprisoned are getting the bejesus beat outta them probably pretty consitantly? The organization can only be a strong as it's leader and it appears that mr cheney sqooshed Geminy Cricket decades ago.
Ilovemyak47
Moderator
btw Why did Dick Cheney shoot his hunting partner? A. To impress Jodie Foster
supposedly she's his lewensky of some sort...
supposedly she's his lewensky of some sort...
Prove it. That's utter speculation on your part.
FYI, the holding areas of the US military were inspected, by the Red Cross IIRC, and the US was found guilty of "torture" according to them. Want to know what constituted torture?
1. force feeding prisoners who were choosing to starve themselves in protest
2. playing loud music so as to keep the inmates awake at night thereby depriving them of sleep.
That's it. That's all the report said (I'll look for it here in a few and try to post the link).
If you decide that YOU think it's torture, that's fine and dandy. You won't make me believe it.
Who do I see about filing torture charges against the Orange County Jail.
They made me strip naked and shower with other men.
(On that count I want to expand my suit to the US Army BCT camp at Ft Leonard Wood)
The jail would only let me go out side for one hour a day, subjected me to homophobia inducing violations of my personal cavities and fed me really bad food.
The army forced me to endure rigorous physical tasks all day and night with only six hours ofsleep per night if we were lucky, walk ungodly distances dressed in very hot charcoal suits and made me do humiliating physical tasks for the most minor offenses
The sergeants also called me really mean names.
And we all know what high school team locker rooms are like
It was torture I tell you, TORTURE
Those pictures coming under the definition of depicting torture or not may be secondary to the fact that they are one of the most effective tools in the oppostions recruitment. Nothing says "dirty infidel" like the forced BS in those pics. Also, I'm not sure many truly appreciate and understand the religious and cultural differences existing between our cultures. Regardless of your personal views on this stuff, they take their belief system much more seriously than is the case for much of the "west"
This wasn't towel snappin'!
Rimrock
This wasn't towel snappin'!
Rimrock
I believe Abu Ghraib redefined "torture". Until this if you asked nearly any person on the street "What is torture?" I would bet "strippin em naked and stackin em up" would have been....well.....not enough to count on Family Feud.
This is a war! This is not L.A. Central Booking, San Quentin, Florence CO or Leavenworth and the same rules do not apply.
Rob P., if you or I were being questioned by authorities as a suspect in a criminal matter under the laws in the US we would not talk to interrogators. We wouldn't because talking is a stupid thing to do without council, guilty or innocent.
If there is some moral or religious aspect to a persons actions, this will make it nearly impossible to get information.
The information possessed by these War Criminals could save hundreds of US Soldiers, Iraqi military, Iraqi government officials. Their information is good for a month or two at best. These guys will not talk without persuasion. If pulling their pants down and laughing at their privates helps to emotionally break them, which is an effective condition for talking, pull away. Sleep deprivation, fine. Water boarding, OK. If these types of conditions work more effectively than any other way short of physically harming them, so be it. This is warfare not US criminal law.
So he goes away humiliated, big deal. If 1 soldier comes home in one piece from inflicting humiliation stress on 50 enemy prisoners, inflict.
Alive Soldier/Iraqi Leader vs. Humiliated Enemies Not a difficult decision for me.
This reminds me of "a more sensitive, caring war".
Taking pictures, idiotic.
Just a reminder, this is a war.
It sure as hell wasn't torture by any reasonable definition.
And yes most here do recognize the religious and cultural differences, especially the families of the guys with their heads cut off by people whining about unflattering photos. At least we prosecuted those responsible for our embarrassment
If we must consider religion when defining torture then abusing a crucifix or crapping on the Virgin Mary should be considered torture
Now I want Mapelthorpe and Linda Blair indicted for torture.
But then I guess that isn't torture because the US government never endorsed or aided Mapelthorpe's work.
I understand that "this is war". What is missing in that equation is that the people in Abu Grabe are prisoners. That means they don't have a choice but to do what they're told to do...or be killed.
So, what value is it to have PFC Flunkybottoms take prisoners out of their cells and strip them, then make them lay on top of each other so they can take a pic of it? What information will be obtained that way? What counter intelligence will be discovered? Remember, these aren't interrogators. These are just grunts having fun & for what purpose?
Nothing. That's what. All that stuff was just to amuse the troopies.
So, in essence, these people abused, humiliated, and denigrated the prisoners for NO REASON AT ALL. They freely admit that they wouldn't treat a dog like they did these prisoners yet all that was done repeatedly just for funzies. Wow.
And now, some say: "Hey, it's war". Well, here's a harsh lesson bubba - it may be war but that doesn't mean it's anarchy. There are rules of engagement that are required to be followed. One of those rules is that you don't treat prisoners like animals just to amuse yourself.
The reason is because this time it's their side who is the prisoner....next time it may be you or your youngun's who have to stand for hours on a box blindfolded and in fear of impending death. And not just one time either - try doing that sort of thing every day for a week to one person and see what kind of mental mess you wind up with.
And remember, it's just for fun because these people didn't have any intel that we needed. Of course all this happened in some other country so the prisoners don't have the same rights as you and I. However, that doesn't mean that OUR TROOPS get to act as if they don't have to follow the rules of engagement. It doesn't mean that when our troops DO things like at Abu Grabe that it isn't "torture". And, of course, just because YOU happen to be "tough" and think you can withstand that sort of thing without any lasting harm doesn't mean that these prisoners are equally as tough as you are.
None of which means that the things that happened aren't "torture" just that some people would redefine the word to include an exception for the treatment of foreigners.
In our schools, teasing and hazing that gets out of control and becomes abuse results in Columbine type incidents. What do you think happens when you do the same thing to adults in a foreign land?
So, what value is it to have PFC Flunkybottoms take prisoners out of their cells and strip them, then make them lay on top of each other so they can take a pic of it? What information will be obtained that way? What counter intelligence will be discovered? Remember, these aren't interrogators. These are just grunts having fun & for what purpose?
Nothing. That's what. All that stuff was just to amuse the troopies.
So, in essence, these people abused, humiliated, and denigrated the prisoners for NO REASON AT ALL. They freely admit that they wouldn't treat a dog like they did these prisoners yet all that was done repeatedly just for funzies. Wow.
And now, some say: "Hey, it's war". Well, here's a harsh lesson bubba - it may be war but that doesn't mean it's anarchy. There are rules of engagement that are required to be followed. One of those rules is that you don't treat prisoners like animals just to amuse yourself.
The reason is because this time it's their side who is the prisoner....next time it may be you or your youngun's who have to stand for hours on a box blindfolded and in fear of impending death. And not just one time either - try doing that sort of thing every day for a week to one person and see what kind of mental mess you wind up with.
And remember, it's just for fun because these people didn't have any intel that we needed. Of course all this happened in some other country so the prisoners don't have the same rights as you and I. However, that doesn't mean that OUR TROOPS get to act as if they don't have to follow the rules of engagement. It doesn't mean that when our troops DO things like at Abu Grabe that it isn't "torture". And, of course, just because YOU happen to be "tough" and think you can withstand that sort of thing without any lasting harm doesn't mean that these prisoners are equally as tough as you are.
None of which means that the things that happened aren't "torture" just that some people would redefine the word to include an exception for the treatment of foreigners.
In our schools, teasing and hazing that gets out of control and becomes abuse results in Columbine type incidents. What do you think happens when you do the same thing to adults in a foreign land?
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