Who has actually had to "draw" on a potential BG?

Here's a story or two for ya:

My two best friends of many years have trouble being resposible with credit, and have found themselves living in basically some slum apartments in the middle of a decent part of town. The apartments allow people to rent with no credit check, so you can imagine what kind of people live there. This place is a hell hole. The local cops tell me they would not live there for free, which is no wonder because the cops are always on scene there for some warrant or disturbance.
My friends and I, just being simple white boys, stick out like the marshmellows in Rocky Road ice cream in those apartments. But, we have never felt threatened because we always pack big guns, polite demeanors and acute awareness.
Simple story though, one of many:
One of my buddies and I are walking out to our car from the apartment and it is late at night. There is not very good lighting in these apartments, so the idiots that started this obviously did not look closely at us, because my friend was carrying his sidearm in his hands, out to the car, not wanting to strap it on yet.
A few of the typical disadvantaged minority youths (the nutty part of the Rocky Road ice cream) that cause trouble in that area approached and mumbled something from behind us from an angle. We were aware of them, but we had by far the upper hand, though they did not know it. I glanced to the side to get a number on them as they approached and mumbled something. I saw metallic objects glistening from the ambient light all over the group of thugs. I have no idea what the objects were, as I could not discern them in the dark, and one was on a bike, which added to the confusion of metal. As we turned fully away from them to continue to our cars one of them said, "I am going to shoot you muther****er!".

Let me tell you something: everyone has their own responses to this kind of thing, but having been there I can tell you that I was highly pissed off and full or righteous anger at someone taking advantage (5 against 2) of my friend and I who were simply walking to our car. I have no patience for predators like that. My heart jumped, but it was not fear, it was anger that they would attack us like this. My friend was even more angry than I was.

Funny thing is, right as they said that they were going to shoot us, we walked under a street light, so we were no longer in the dark. We turned to look at them, and still could not discern the shiny objects among them, but must assume they had a gun because they just walked up behind us and told us they were going to shoot us.
My buddy turned quicker than I did. I have known him a long time and I could FEEL the anger coming off of him as we turned. I am sure that our eyes were quite a sight full of flames at those guys.
I turned and reached for my concealed Glock 30 on my hip under my shirt, and my friend drew his Stainless Steel Colt 1911 Commander, which must have glistened brightly under that street lamp. My buddy drew the Colt Commander .45 before I could draw my Glock .45, because it was in his hand.
One hand full of holster and one full of .45, my buddy faces them and says
"Oh Yeah...?"

Needless to say, those perps beat feet as fast as they could run and ride, apoligizing as they ran away, if you can imagine that :D.

I can't say I was shaky. My heart jumped for a minute, a very little bit of adrenaline, but mostly afterward I was real happy they got what they deserved. Hope they think twice next time when they choose to victimize some innocent people. But then again, I was not facing off an AK-47 with nothing more than a handgun, like someone was in a previous story. That is a really bad situation.

I have more stories.....

How about the time that the same friend and I were cruising down the freeway when a lowered beatup Honda full of four disadvantaged minority youths came up behind us as tried to ram us off the road. That time, the closest gun that I could reach was my friend's Anaconda .44 Mag. I displayed the gun, and they immediatly drove off to pick another target.

I have no idea what they planned, but I am glad I did not find out the hard way.

Of course, none of this gets reported to Police because there is no real crime commited and it would be a waste of my time and the Police's time.

I have heard people say that carrying a gun is like wearing a seat belt - you put it on even though you never know if you will need it. Many people wear seatbelts but no gun. Tell you what: my gun has saved my butt a WHOLE lot more times that my seatbelt has.





[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited December 10, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited December 10, 1999).]
 
Chuck - Thats a very good point. Restraint should be the Gunners strongest skill. In my mentioned case here - I feel I was justified. The guy was caught in the commision of a crime and failed to comply with my commands and kept coming at me... That was threatening to me. I didnt go out looking for a fight. Picking fights is in no way justifiable.

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
We, the people, are tired of being taxed, penalized, supervised, harassed,
and subjugated by a federal government which exceeds the powers
enumerated in the U.S. Constitution.
 
I'm glad this post came up because something happened to me the other night that really woke me up.

I was driving home at about 8:30PM the other night, doing about 65 in a 55mph, with cruise control set and my 3 kids in the back seat. As I approached a small pick-up in the passing lane he abruptly swung into my lane with no signal and then hit his brakes. I almost had to lock mine up before I swung my car out to the left. As I passed his left I flashed my lights and honked my horn and continued on my way.

When I arrived home while my kids were walking to our house door and I was locking my car I saw his pick-up driving towards our house. The kids were at the door by now but I froze and kept my eye on him the whole time.
He passed the house, made a U turn and and stopped in front of my house in the road.

It was dark and I couldn't see what he was doing as he stood up out of his car. As soon as I could see his hands I made a B-line straight to him. This kind of suprised him as he started yelling "you drive like that with kids in the car". I told him in a tone matching his what I thought about his driving and instructed him to leave. At this point my wife comes out (big mistake) wondering whats going on. Now he starts yelling at her what he thinks about me. I started thinking that he must be on something to follow me to my property and accuse me of something he did. I had positioned myself with the front of his truck between us. In between his tirades I saw him move his hand to his car seat in order to prop the seat forward. He kept glancing in behind the seat as if he was trying to passively find something. At this point my hand moved to front pocket, just in front of the 45 ACP I carried IWB. What pissed me off was I couldn't see in his truck so I didn't know what was going on. I guess after he realized I wasn't backing down he decided to re-enter his truck and leave. I stayed there, watching him until his truck was out of sight. Afterwards I had a long talk with my wife about not coming out when there is a confrontation like that.

Lessons learned:
-Talk to your significant other about situations like this so you both know what to do in case of emergency.
-At night, always carry your flashlight. I ussualy do but got lazy that night. If I had it I could have blinded him and seen what his hands were doing.
-Stand your ground until the threat is gone. Hearing this crap about trying to leave and running away comes from those who have never experienced a spineless crook. This happened in Ga but I was born and raised in NYC. I know from experience that when these guy's see fear in your eye's it's like fuel for them. They feed on instilling fear and will pounce when they smell it. They are like dog's, they don't want a fight, they just want to feel superior. The phraise " I don't want any trouble so please leave me alone" to a hoodlum translates to "I'm afraid of you, please don't beat me up".
I've been the hoodlum before and this was an invitation to show what a bad ass I was.
If the guy could take the above phrase and say to himself "hmmm, this guy is nice, how about I just leave him alone" he would have had the sense not to start a conflict in the firt place.

My wife asked me why didn't I just ignore him and come inside. I told her it's not my job to come in the house with the kids. What if he followed and came to the door of our house. Know he would have had me and my family togethor. He followed me to my property so what would have kept him from doing approaching the house.

I know what turned him away was my approaching him and standing my ground.

I did have to pull my weapon once but it was on a dog..lol.
Again. next to my house I was returning from my neighbors when I heard a growl in the darkness across the road. I stopped and put my flashlight in the growls direction and saw a large black stray dog. He growled again showing his teeth. I immediatly pulled my 45 and sited him in. I slowly back stepped toward my house and the dog started to walk away.
I shared this because I experienced something I had only heard of till then. Tunnel vision and hearing. As soon as I drew my gun the world around me closed down into a tight beem between the dog and I. Nothing else existed.
Has anyone else experienced that?

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"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
 
leedesert,
About the tunnel vision, I think its normal... but dangerous. When you're in a situation like that, you want to know EVERYTHING that is going on around you.

For me, when that happens, I shake my head once or twice VERY quickly in a short arc sideways and it goes away... but its mostly practice...

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Stand against evil, lest evil have its way...
 
One afternoon I was asleep in the back bedroom. One of the local punks decided that then was a good time to do a burglery. I had my .380 Makarov under my pillow. The Gobblin didn't notice me through the window screen,and the sound of him trying to force it woke me up.You should have seen the look on his face when he found himself looking down the barrel of a gun. He bolted away,screaming "don't shoot me,don't shoot me!" The Cops found him hiding at home,and hauled him off to the pokey. He never bothered us again.
 
Had to draw once. Guy came in my coin shop
in August with an overcoat on. He dashed
his hand into his coat very quickly and I
drew a Commander from a belt loop holster.
I held gun at low angle and told him to take
his hand out of his coat very slowly. He
protested that he wanted to call the cops and
made many silly remarks. Then his buddy stepped in from just behind the door jamb
asking what was wrong. And they both left.
I told him that he would not have to call
police as I would be doing so with license
# as soon as they were out. I am sure that
he would have drawn a gun as he was dressed
wrong and was very nervous and the buddy
clinched it. Not a good time.
I had been robbed at gunpoint shortly before
and it was almost a carbon copy of the 1st
incident.
 
I tried to draw on a BG once, but my felt-tip had gone dry.

What can I say? Bad puns are my weakness, along with firearms.
DAL

P.S. I've never had to draw a gun on anyone, and I hope I never have to, although I have encountered a few belligerent jerks in my time, as have most people.

------------------
Reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," by Ayn Rand, should be required of every politician and in every high school.
 
George,

I'm with you. I made my mind up long ago that I am not a victim, period. As an able bodied citizen, I feel that you have the duty to challenge criminal behavior. It is the cost, if you will, of living in our society because the next victim is going to be the equivalent of your mother, sister, or grandmother.

Police are great when they are there, or can be there soon enough to make a difference.

Now I would never shoot someone walking out with my microwave- I would pay that amount not to shoot someone.

However, to not challenge someone breaking into my car is also irresponsible as a citizen- IMHO.

When the goblin walks at you with gun drawn he is armed, with the most dangerous weapon devised, his brain. I have seen my share of death/disablement without the use of knives and guns.

I have never had to draw a gun. I have had to draw a machete twice in Mexico however. Both times I was outnumbered. Both times the chicken #$%&*'s mistook me for a victim. Both times they were suprised to see an able bodied citizen willing to go to the "mat" and decided there were easier targets elsewhere.

My .02

Olazul
 
Lavan,
Good post... I believe that many incidents can be avoided by proper tactical moves...

You watched him when he came in, you reacted to a suspicious move, you DIDN'T point your weapon at him - from a legal point of view that was an EXCELLENT move.

I believe that if you rehearse possible situations and scenarios that when, or if, something happens, you will be better prepared...

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Stand against evil, lest evil have its way...
 
NOw this isn't ment as a flame....But most of your incidents esp with automobiles would have been major trouble in court if you had to use your gun. IMHO.. When you chose to carry a firearm you lose the right to be macho. You can NEVER esculate ANY situation. You MUST do everything that a reasonable person could do to prevent esculation.. Just the act of blowing your horn/flipping the bird makes you a WILLING PARTICIPANT. "not good when trying to prove self defense."
I was taught if I would have to shoot someone plan on spending at least $10.000 to stay out of jail. That is if I have done everything right. I will prob lose the gun used and it will cost more $$ to try and get it back. When in a car and not blocked in. "threat is not imminent" draw your cell phone. Even if cops don't get there in time you have tried to prevent/reasonable person etc. Please check with local attorney about this. Don't lose your freedom, life savings, firearms ownership privilages, seeing your kids X birthday , etc just to remove a piece of human trash. It just ain't worth it. IMHO
Now on to Missile cop. I would have/have done the same thing. I know that if any BG is there and hears me so he "hides" and waits odds are I will be dead! I have cleared many houses/apts with local LEO and a second pair of eyes to catch what you miss and watch your 6 is great. But just think that most people would go into that same situation empty handed....
Chuck many good points. Thank you.

Sorry if I offend some of you but if I was on the jury "and the prosecution didn't disqualify me knowing I am pro gun" I would have to say many of you "under the law" as I know it. I would have to vote you as guilty. As I understand the law. "which isn't near what it should."
Will tell you about what happened to me maybe at a later date....
Keep safe, keep aware, and keep powder dry.
 
Good post, last. I never am so polite (& a wimp ;-) than when I am carrying. Nobody needs the hassle of shooting someone & if you do, you must be seen as absolutely blameless (before & during the event) by all witnesses. Will be a big enough hassle as it is.

Get cut off in traffic? Smile & curse them silently. Even though an aggessive traffic move can be life-threatening, once it's happened to no advesre consequence, let it go.
 
#1. At a customer's house collecting early one Saturday morning. Customer is a 60 year old woman with a brand spanking new arm cast and a large pressure bandage on the side of her neck. Said her boyfriend had cut her throat and broke her arm last night and the police were still looking for him. About that time I hear a loud drunk voice yelling,"So your the #%$$ been screwing my gal! I'm gonna shoot your ass!" I look around and there is this extremely drunk individual weaving back and forth with his hand in the pocket of his field jacket and what looks like the barrel of a gun inside the pocket (might have been his finger) Well, my employee is in the passenger seat of the truck a few feet from him. I take cover behind the engine of the truck, and draw my revolver, prepared to shoot. After some more threats, the man falls down. While he's trying to recover, I'm in the truck and burning rubber to the police station.

#2 I'm going to a local convenience store and a local drunk wants me to drink with him in the parking lot (I know the man). I politely refuse and go into the convenience store. When I come out, he's worked himself into a red faced rage because I would not drink with him and wants to fight. I politely refuse and begin to walk to my vehicle. This yoyo reaches into his field jacket and yells,"Go on and get your gun, I've got mine. I'm going to kill you!" (What is it with field jackets and the hand in the pocket deal, anyway? This crap has happened to me twice.)
Well, the guy was to my left and I had already reached under my coat with my right hand and hit the thumb release of the Browning Hipower. As I related earlier, the man was known to me and I had never heard of him carrying a gun-a knife was more his style. I continued to my car prepared to draw and fire if necessary. If I had not known this individual and his armament proclivities, I would have drawn and fired in this situation. This man was shot and killed by a good friend of mine several months later.

#3 On a collection call, I was talking with a customer about his badly pastdue account in his workshop. The conversation was completely amicable in content and tone. We were about 4 to 5 feet apart. Suddenly he grabbed a sledge hammer handle and swung it up to hit me in the head. I took a large step to my right oblique rear to get off his line of attack while hitting the thumb release of my pistol. He released the hammer handle and let it fly as he realized I was drawing a handgun. We continued our amicable discussion, my employees loaded up my merchandise, and I left.

#4 One spring morning, I was in my living room with the door open, when a bloody faced man knocked on the door and asked to use the phone to report an assault. I said sure come on in, the phone's right there. Well, as he was dialing, his assailant (his lover as it turned out) flew through my front door and started beating the tar out of him in my living room. In the process, endangering several thousand dollars worth of electronics. I requested that they leave and was ignored. I drew my Browning Hipower, held it at low ready, and roared,"HEY, I'VE GOT SOMETHING Y'ALL WANT TO SEE!" That got their attention and they looked and SAW. They were out the door in about a second flat.

Some thoughts about the level of threat. I have received four serious concussions in my life. Two from the fists of teenage boys when I was a teenager. The effects of concussions can be cumulative and not show up for many years. The most serious complication of a brain concussion is death. As a result of this, I consider any threat to hit me with anything including bare fists to be a threat of serious bodily harm or death.
In consequence, I am prepared to use deadly force against an unarmed assault. I'll let my medical records and expert neurological witnesses testify at the trial.

------------------
Byron Quick
 
In a situtaion where you house is invaded, and it's a shoot first and ask questions later scenario, what happens if you shoot (and kill) the perp, and it turns out the perp is not carrying a firearm?
.
I think having a unregistered Saturday night special(wiped clean) sort of gun could be used in this situtation, placing it in the perps hands, to avoid the legal hassles of deadly force being used on an unarmed or underarmed robber. I feel like others that once my house is invaded, it's no holds barred against the intruder, regardless of his level of armament.

Any comments?
 
Almost forgot this one. I was nineteen or twenty (1973). Hair down past my shoulders and a scraggly beard. With a good friend and his girlfriend at McMillan's Diner in Millen, Georgia. Three bikers started making explicit lewd remarks about the girl. Well, my friends were typical pacifist hippies and wanted to leave, so I was settling the tab when one of the bikers slammed his heavy coffee mug on my left hand resting on the bar. I've got a high pain tolerance so I just looked at him expressionless which kinda disconcerted him. My friends walked out with me bringing up the rear. We had gotten in the car when the three bikers came out and approached us while laughing about the fun they were about to have. The laughter died when they saw the Llama .38 Super Auto pointed at them. They decided to go away and we drove home. My left hand looked like some deformed species of squash the next day.

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Byron Quick
 
Here in Georgia, at least outside of Atlanta which has been subverted by the liberal influx from the Northeast, you don't really have to worry about them being armed or not if they invade your home.

The throwaway deal is generally a very, very bad idea. The results of this being discovered by the police would turn what was a potentially justified shooting into an almost undefendable murder charge.

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Byron Quick
 
Here's the law about an intruder in North Carolina. It's basically a "Person's Home is their Castle". Check your state. Maybe this should be another thread, for the education of all.

14-51.1 Use of deadly physical force against an intruder.

(a) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence is justified in using any degree of force that the occupant reasonably believes is necessary, including deadly force, against an intruder to prevent a forcible entry into the home or residence or to terminate the intruder's unlawful entry

(i) if the occupant reasonably apprehends that the intruder may kill or inflict serious bodily harm to the occupant or others in the home or residence, or

(ii) if the occupant reasonably believes that the intruder intends to commit a felony in the home or residence.

(b) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence does not have a duty to retreat from an intruder in the circumstances described in this section.

[This message has been edited by Joseph (edited December 14, 1999).]
 
Lucky, I wouldn't try it. You don't sound like the prison sort to me. The way I understand it, even if your shoot was perfectly justified and you did nothing wrong except planting the gun, it ain't hard to convict you of whatever the prosecutor wants once they find out you tried to fake it.
Don't kid yourself. Everyone's heard stories that so-and-so did this, but the odds are still that you will get caught. Better odds than the old "drag him inside" thing, but not pretty.

------------------
Don

"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
 
First off DON'T plant a gun. If you thought the person was a threat...and a reasonable person would think he was a threat. "You must be able to verbilize this" No weapon is needed. As was said if it is found out that you planted a gun you will go to jail. Everything you say will be considered a lie. "do you trust our president??? Why not?? Because he lied" Odds are the police will figure it out or you will make another dumb mistake and give it away. "If you tell a lie you have to remember..."
 
I agree with the numerous comments to the effect that this is a VERY helpful thread.

It reminds me of reading survival-at-sea stories before going on off-shore sails. Everyone who has lived through a sea disaster attributes survival to having been mentally prepared -- not on the basis of experience, per se, but on the basis of vicarious experiences from others, i.e., reading.

My only close encounter was as follows, and I have had wildly different reactions to it. I had just purchased a Kimber Ultra Carry and had it on my right front pants pocket (IWB holster not yet purchased), and I had also just THAT DAY installed a motion triggered flood light in my driveway.

I drive down my otherwise dark and very narrow driveway at 10:30 PM, park my car in a dark garage and am about to head back to the house when a gentleman in his early twenties, much taller than me but fairly slightly built, speaks up out of nowhere and says something absolutely bonkers -- "Will I tow his car twenty miles to a garage in a nearby city?"

Fortunately for me my 1 year old black lab on the other side of a fence by the driveway starts barking like hell. This guy does not know whether the dog can get to him or not. He is very restrained. Begins to start explaining that he doesn't have the money for a tow, that he's really a good guy, and that I shouldn't be worried about him.

In addition to the 45 in my pocket (it may as well have been on the moon for all of its retrievability) I have a pretty serious knife on my key chain which I now have my thumb on ready to open. And I am returning from a skeet shoot and have the rear of my four wheel drive vehicle open -- of course, the 12 ga is in a case and unloaded.

The bottom line is I did not draw (or try to because I was afraid he might panic and I still wouldn't be able to get the damn 45 out). After I firmly repeated NO to all of his requests for a twenty mile tow at 10:30 and NO to his requests for money to hire a tow truck, he slowly backed down the driveway and left.

You need to understand in assessing this that the guy had to follow me down a then dark driveway -- the lights didn't go on til I was already back there -- and there was no other way in or out for him or me. This was a direct confrontation, and I just decided to play it firm but cool.

If I had been wearing an IWB holster that night, I have no doubt I would have pulled the gun out of it. Whether I would have brandished it or let him see it, I don't know. But I now carry cocked and locked all the time.

My friends the next morning said I should have drawn regardless of the effect on him and regardless of how clumsy it might have been.

My reaction was that the guy was lucky my lights went on, if I'd had to go thru this in the darkness there would have been a lot more panic and a lot less cool.

What would you have done??????
 
Any altering of evidence at a homicide scene could be prosecuted as a felony. A post above mentioned the "drag 'em inside" bit. Never do it & good advice above. Any of you big game hunters have followed a blood trail upon a time. The forensic guys have too & the science/art of their trade is quiet astounding these days. Even picking up your brass at such an event may be taken as fouling the evidence.

Best advice is to never, ever be seen as the aggresor, shoot 'em soundly (so sad) & then call for an amublance & render 1st aid to the perp.

When checking the neck pulse on the perp, just a bit of extra pressure should cut off all brain blood flow & hence eliminate one of the witnesses. (most certainly, tongue in cheek)
 
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