Who has actually had to "draw" on a potential BG?

Let me mention one time...
Actually the first time I drew down on some one here in Salt Lake with my PPK/S:

My family was sound asleep one night and I was still up watching Conan O'brian with the sound way low so as not to disturb them.
I thought I heard something outside - I had a window open... It was dark outside, so I grabbed my flashlight, and as an after thought - my Walther.
I went outside and circled the house. Once I got to the back - I saw someone getting into my car. I turned the light on him - and he looked at me for a sec - then started walking to me.
I put the light in hi seyes and ordered him to stop.
He didnt.
I raised the little auto. The way I held the light, weak hand over the shoulder - it cast light on the gun so he could see it. When he did - he stopped. He was about 8 feet away.
I told him I was going to ventilate him if he didn't get the @*&@%@*!! Outta here NOW - or if I ever saw him again. He ran. I checked out my car - nothing was amis that I noted... Next morning I realized he got away with my SOG Multitool that I had left on the center console. I miss that SOG.

You can read about my other incident here in Salt Lake... Just do a search on Tongans...


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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey - have you seen the new Ultimate Super Tactical Match Gun?
 
Maybe because I live in the City of Miami or maybe unbeknownst to me I have a sign that reads "mark" on my forehead but I seem to have encountered more bad guys than most of my friends.
My first experience with BGs and guns was rather traumatic and gave me the discipline to control myself latter in life. When I was 14 my family use to live across the street from a guy that I always suspected was a drug dealer due to the high number of cars visiting his house after hours. I used to get all my High School friends to come and work-out with me at home since I had nice gym set up in the back of the house. One morning during the summer while Mom and Dad were away I hear a Knock on the door...It was the guy from across the street ( 40-45, medium built, Hispanic ) I open the door and he starts shouting that next time that I look at his girlfriend he is going to kill me ( paranoid drug induced jealousy ) I reply that he must be mistaken as I do not look at his girlfriend nor do I care about his life and do not want anything to do with him. All of the sudden he pulls out a Smirth and Wesson autoloader which I was to nervous to remember the model but by the size of the barrel it looked like a nine. He puts the gun to my chest and threatens to kill me the next time and leaves like a bat out of hell. I was shocked to say the least. My options were several at the time but I did not tell my family, suspended the guy coming over to my gym as found that they had been the ones saying things to his girlfriend and kept a Gun that a friend of my Dad gave to me as a present for when I grew up( an old nickel plating worn off Browning Hi power that I had shot several times ) condition one at all times and made a promise to myself never to be intimidated by a gun again.The bad guy move away after his tires were slashed and his front door cylinder crazy glued a few times and other mysterious things kept on happening such as anonymous TIPS calls made to his house. Hey I was only 14 and did not want to compromised my freedom just wanted to make him feel unwelcome.
Then about 5 years ago I had an experience similar to MusclesMcGee's one in the above post. As I was driving north bound on US1 an average guy ( fair complexion medium built ) overtakes me and nearly causes me to get into a crash. I get upset and do not honk but flash my lights for a second just to let him know what an ass he was. He changes lanes and as the lights turns to red we end up side by side having him on my Fiance's side ( no good ). He all of the sudden threatens to shoot me and calls me a MOTHERF*cking F*G. Gridlock in traffic there was no way to avoid confrontation, I told my fiancee to reclined her seat all the way back and by the time the other guy gets his glove box open he I had my P - 228 sights on him. He looked at me ****ted himself and being his lucky day as "Harry" will say the lights went to green. He sped off and I followed him, we were doing at least 80 on a 40 miles an hour Zone! Red again, I pulled up next to him again on his passenger side he sped of and took the light I simply chose to let him go.
A few more have happened some are better left in the dark to avoid problems some are just insignificant but all in all I am glad that God has protected me and that my State has allowed me to exercise my God given right to protect myself and family

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I recently read a letter in the editorial page of a large newspaper that got me thinking "Does concealed carry make one paranoid?" The author felt she was less trusting and more fearful of other people when she was armed. Since it is illegal for me to carry concealed in public I cannot speak from much ...AHEM...personal experience. However, when I've felt most threatened, I've been unarmed. We tend to think that when a threat presents itself, it will be obvious with ample warning. We imagine hords of crazed bikers riding in circles around our house, shooting their guns in the air, threatening to "burn you out" if you don't give them your wife, daughter, favorite beer stein, whatever. From my own viewpoint, when the potential for violence appears, it will be far less dramatic and much more confusing. People will seem to become enraged over the most trivial of things ( like a parking place). Logic doesn't seem to apply anymore( The parking lot is mostly vacant, but you took their parking place). Disbelief heightens the tension( Did I park in a handicap or reserved space by mistake?) Whether you are armed or not (legal or illegally) the best choice is to apologize and drive away, perhaps completely away. Misunderstandings will get you fined, imprisoned, killed. Law enforcement officers know how drugs, alcohol, inbreeding, whathaveyou affect behavior on a daily basis. A close LEO friend of mine does exactly what I have suggested (offduty) when possible. I have witnessed it on more than one occasion. He is not a wimp and he ALWAYS carries a badge and gun. Sorry for the long reply, but the post by damiano concerning the bra reinforced what I have already found true. Often violent encounters don't make no sense. :) I have been reading lately, however, that before an attack a BG will usually give verbal or nonverbal clues which a trained person can interpret and use to his/her advantage. Who would have thought there could be so much to know about self defense? Thank goodness for forums like this. :)
 
Wow! Some interesting incidents from you folks. In the civilian world, there was one night that I was walking over to my friends house to drop off some auto parts, when I heard a car slow down behind me. Thinking that it was turning into a driveway behind me, I kept walking. Out of the corner of my eye, I could see that the vehicle was still following me. I walked on for about another 50 feet, and still found the vehicle following me. I put my hand on my Sig, which was covering my family jewels. The auto parts in my right hand prevented the driver from seeing what I was doing. Tired of playing cat and mouse, I stopped, looked down at my Sig, then looked over at the car, staring. I couldn't see inside the car, and it stayed there for probably 15-20 seconds, then took off. Apparently, they went to look for easier pickings.
The only other time I've been on total alert was when I stopped at my Gram's one day. I rang the door bell twice, and no one answered. I checked the screen door, and it was unlocked (not unusual, if she had gone out), then I checked the front door. It was unlocked (not at ALL normal!). I went into full alert, drawing my Sig. I slowly opened the door partway, and listened. Not hearing anything, I opened it a bit further. Taking a step inside, I could partially survey 4 rooms and the staircase. I started to head in and clear the rooms, when I saw my grandmother in my peripheral vision. Before she had a chance to see me, I reholstered the Sig. When she saw me, I thanked her for scaring me to death, and gently reminded her to keep the front door locked. I'm still trying to figure out how she was able to be so flippin' quiet. I didn't hear her at all.
Must have been those stealth slippers! :)
 
George,

A couple of things went through my mind as I read your approach to the guy trying to steal your car.

1. You approached with a weapon drawn. Since you had no idea of whether the other guy was armed and/or dangerous, it was within your rights to fear the worst. Hence, if a shooting, you would have been protected legally. Make sense?

2. If you suspected the guy was armed and/or dangerous, wouldn't walking up to him, without cover, and giving him a target (your flashlight) to shoot at, put you at unnecessary risk? (I've thought about those ads where the little woman is hiding behind her big man who has a light attached to his gun. If I was the BG intent on doing harm, I'd shoot for the light, seems to me.)

3. What would you have done if the guy didn't stop and run off, but kept persuing you. "What are you gonna do, man. Shoot me?". (I was an Armed Forces Policeman in Subic Bay in 1967. It has happened to me.)

I'm not trying to second-guess you, George. I'm sure I probably would have done much the same thing as you. But now that we have the freedom to go over our battle plans in group discussion, maybe some plans might change. And this is exactly the kind of threat we all could encounter.

Thoughts/comments?

LOVE THIS FORUM!!
Roon
 
MissleCop,
Your comment about being on "total alert", reminded me of an incident while in the military.

While I was talking to a guy at a check-point, two guys started walking toward the gateshack. I glanced at them, and a HUGE feeling of apprehension came over me. Of course, I had left my '16 in the jeep, so I casually walked over and picked it up and carried it back to the gateshack.

Of course, the two guys saw me do this and ... nothing happened. They just gave me a hard stare, asked some questions, then left.

But I've always wondered what would have happened if I hadn't gone to pick up my weapon.

Bottom line is... if your instincts tell you something is wrong... GO TO FULL ALERT!

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Stand against evil, lest evil have its way...
 
Dad2Jane,
I, too, had an M-16 incident while in the military. We were on alert one night when two maintenance folks drove into a cordoned off restricted area. Their first clue that something was wrong was when the stanchions hit the ground because their truck snagged the rope. The second clue that they were in deep S*** was when both myself and another SP yelled "HALT!" and politely pointed our M-16's in their general direction. I don't consider it very polite to be trying to come into MY restricted area when it's cold and after midnight! I'm not in the mood. All ended well, and they lived. I bet they had to go change their pants, though!! :)
 
Gizmo,
please let me clarify. My point was not to tell people to engage in a fist fight, or even give up their gun. It was to make people understand that a true deadly force situation very rarely happens. Physical confrontations happen quite frequently. Dont get caught in a physical fight with your gun drawn, when deadly force is not an option. Like i said, you may end up dead or in jail.
And, If you get caught in a fist fight, two hands are better than one.
EK
 
I've been carrying concealed for well over 15 years and I've never had to draw down on a bad guy. However, when I was an LEO there were many occasions wherein I drew down on bad guys with both handgun and shotgun.

For those of you who are seeking guidance about when you should and can draw your weapon in self-defense, I invite you to visit http://www.firearmstactical.com and review our Five Rules for Concealed Carry. We get frequent requests from firearms instructors and law enforcement agencies requesting authorization to reproduce these rules as a handout to students and concealed handgun license applicants.

I'm presently working on an article that deals with "gray area" issues about armed self-defense.

------------------
/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
 
I've had to draw "for real" twice off-duty and several times "on the job" in the past twenty years.
Sometimes, you get the shakes afterward and sometimes you don't.The point should be for you to "Monday morning quarterback" yourself on your response, so you'll be MORE prepared next time.Tactics are never perfect and Mr. Murphy is always out there.
I know guys who have killed in self defense who have had some symptoms of traumatic stress, and others who were quite indifferent to it or even "ecstatic" for surviving it. Everybody is different and none are "right or wrong."
Ayoob makes some good points,but remember, he is only a "part-time cop" and always has been. He has such a body of work in the gunwriting field, tactical training, police bookshelf, etc., I can't imagine him having spent much time on the street. And, I agree, he is kind of pompous and self serving.
Anyway, BE CAREFUL OUT THERE, PRACTICE, TRAIN HARD, and THINK!
 
I've never had to draw on anyone, but came close twice. A guy was approaching my car as I was finishing a conversation with my wife outside our apt. building. I saw a man approaching out of the corner of my eye at a 45 degree angle, and I don't know how, but I new he was going to make contact. I exited my vehicle and met him as he came around to the driver side, which appeared to throw him off. He gave me some line about me needing to take him somewhere because his friend owed him $40, and he had gas money (a $5 bill in his hand). I calmly told him "I don't know you, I'd like to help, but no." He gave me a little crap, but appeared unnerved and left. That was the only time I have ever felt calm when faced with a potential threat. I was carrying a concealed weapon and knew that if he did anything he was going down. It was a very surreal experience, and I don't mean to contradict Damien at all, either. I get pumped up when we train on the FATS machine, and my heart rate skyrockets, but for some strange reason, it didn't happen that time.

The other time was while waiting for my wife outside immigration (kick the Brits out, and they keep coming back :)). I wasn't paying attention (big mistake in Seattle) and was reading a book. A man was "crossing" the street, but approaching my driver's side door. I saw him when he was much too close for comfort, 4-6 meters. Without even realizing it, I dropped the book and began to reach for my weapon. I didn't have the chance to complete the draw, because he suddenly veered off, and went behind the car and left the area. The odd thing was that he never flinched, just smoothly changed his course when he saw me moving. Did I know he was a threat, no, but I believed him to be. I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm crossing a busy street, I make a straight line for the sidewalk (path of least resistance being between the cars parked at the side of the road), not for the door of an occupied vehicle. I was lucky, stupid, but lucky. They say the Lord looks after drunks and fools and I don't drink :).

While training on the FATS machine, though, I noticed a lot of our guys didn't pick up threat cues. Like the guy whose hand was in his pocket, not necessarily a threat, but it does mean moving into condition orange.

The biggest thing I've learned, is be aware of what's going on, both from my own good and bad experiences and that of various teachers and friends. The good Colonel's (Lieutenant Colonel Jeff Cooper, USMC, retired for anyone not familiar) color code is one of the most important tools we have, because if we ignore it, we may never get to use our secondary weapon (the primary is the mind).

Chuck
 
Joseph,
What I wrote was pretty much abridged.
I aint got the time to fill in every freaking detail.

1. You approached with a weapon drawn. Since you had no idea of whether the other guy was armed and/or dangerous, it was within your rights to fear the worst. Hence, if a shooting, you would have been protected legally.
I had the Walther tucked inside the waist band of the sweats I was wearing. - So I wasnt carrying it in my hand.

2. If you suspected the guy was armed and/or dangerous, wouldn't walking up to him, without cover, and giving him a target (your flashlight) to shoot at, put you at unnecessary risk? (I've thought about those ads where the little woman is hiding behind her big man who has a light attached to his gun. If I was the BG intent on doing harm, I'd shoot for the light, seems to me.)
Tactical Lights are a whole other ball of wax... Thats a dicusion for another time. No - I didnt know if he was armed or not. I just knew he was f***ing with my car - and I dont like that. I didnt draw untill he started to approach me. I initiated contact at about 30 feet.

3. What would you have done if the guy didn't stop and run off, but kept persuing you. "What are you gonna do, man. Shoot me?". (I was an Armed Forces Policeman in Subic Bay in 1967. It has happened to me.)
Had he taken another step I would have unloaded 6 Magsafe Agent rounds into his T-shirt clad chest. I was already holding the trigger back - only had about 3 pounds worth left to pull. This guy was about to go down. Hey - I felt threatened. I dont get warm fuzzy feelings from burglers. But he stopped in time. I could have taken him down hand to hand from his looks... but I dont know if he had weapons or not. I caught him in the commision of a crime - every cop I have talked to about this HERE IN UTAH have said they would have done the same thing. Well - they would have gone outside with a shotgun... but hey - I didn't have one Okay?

------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey - have you seen the new Ultimate Super Tactical Match Gun?
 
Chuck,
You said, "The biggest thing I've learned, is be aware of what's going on,..."

That is EXCELLENT advice... to many people just "drift" through life...

Through years of practice NOONE, and I mean NO ONE, gets within 5 feet of me without me being aware of them. And usually, I'm aware of people around me out to 30 feet or more. Not that I'm paranoid, but I've made a practice of being aware of what's going on around me.

I also play "what if" games with myself...
"what if" a guy trys to carjack me... what would I do? "what if" something happens to me like what I just saw in the news, what would I do?

If you practice - in your mind - the situations that could possibly happen.. you'll be better prepared. You won't get all rattled, because you would have already "done it", in your mind.

For example: "what if" someone comes up behind you RIGHT NOW while you are typing? What if that person wants to harm you?

Me? I would be able to see them because of their relection in the glass just to the right of my computer monitor. I would brace my fingers/hands on the keyboard, and push back HARD with my hips, sending the chair (with wheels) spinning back toward them, throwing them off balance. I'd grab the stapler to my right, spin, crash the stapler against their temple... end of story.

What would YOU do? (You don't have to answer... just think about it...)

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Stand against evil, lest evil have its way...
 
Dad2Jane, just admit what we've all suspected for months now. You're Jackie Chan, aren't you? :) But I'll play.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>For example: "what if" someone comes up behind you RIGHT NOW while you are typing? What if that person wants to harm you?[/quote]

I'm in a dorm room. It has two doors and a plate glass window. Both doors are locked. To get in they have to defeat the lock or break the window. I have my knife sitting on the monitor ready to deploy and a bokken next to me. (No guns allowed at my college, so my lone gun--a Ruger .22--is locked up unloaded.) If they break in, I hear them and beat them senseless with the bokken. Knife is backup. If they knock, I answer the door with knife in hand. My friends are used to this and don't take offense though they think I'm nuts. . . . :)

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Don

"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
 
Pulled up to make a lefthand turn next to a car with four disadvantage minority youths (~15-18yrs old). I allowed my car to slip back some so I could watch out better. One youth jumped out of their car & started tugging on my locked pasenger side door. I drew the BHP, wiped the safety & pointed at the (now) perp's forehead. His eyes turned to saucers, scooted oh so fast back into the car & they blew the light with squealing tires.

Totally calm through the incident, almost disbelieving, but had the shakes big-time afterwards. BTW, I wouldn't have shot unless he attempted to break the window.

Somebody mentioned Situational Awareness, which in my book is one of the most important aspects of personal defense. You must be aware of your surroundings at all times. Almost all threats to you will come so unexpectedly that you will be disbelieving which may cause total inaction.

Too, MissleCop, clearing your Grandma's house was a mistake. I can understand so, please, no flames, but even paired professionals hate house clearing because it is (can be) so dangerous. Better to call the LEOs & have them do their job.

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we gladly feast on those who would subdue us


[Edited by labgrade on 05-18-2001 at 10:42 AM]
 
Something I did want to add in last post but spaced it.

When performing a dynamic entry or similar effort, you are the "agressor," if you will, and have the initiative. You are doing it to someone else & that situation is totally different than if you, yourself are accosted unawares.

The initiative is so hugely pyschologically important that it can never be underestimated.
 
New lister here, but a regular a Gunspot. Here's my story. Several months ago, my wife and I left the local arena after watching a pro hockey game. I slipped my SA Champion into my holster when I got into the car (beer is sold in the arena, so no weapons) I did not partake. As we're driving home, a guy swerves in front of me and puts on the brakes fairly hard, but I'm not sure why. I give him my brights for 2-3 seonds and back off. Eventually through the interchanges he gets beside me and he and his obviously drunk girlfriend start yelling at us. I've never been much of an aggressor anyway, so we just ignore them, realizing the danger that could come out of this. He took a different turn, and I thought it was over, I pulled into the grocery store to pick up a few things, and lo and behold, guess who pulls in the parking lot and gets between me and the store (we're already out of the car and walking). I got close enough to his car door so that if he opened it, I could slam it back on his leg in an instant, and began to calmly state what had happened, (I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to grovel when I've done nothing). After I'd told him what he'd done wrong and reinforced my innocence, he obviously saw the confidence in my eyes, and drove away. Neither he nor the rent-a-cop watching from 50 yds. away ever new that I had a .45 on my hip and new how to use it well. This goes to show how stupid it is to try to get agressive with people you don't know...you never know what the other guy can do to you. That dumb___ never knew what he was looking at...but I'm sure glad nothing ever escalated.
 
Labgrade,
You underestimate me. I'm not the flamin' kind of guy. My family raised me better than that. Some would say my actions were a mistake. That's fine. All I ask is that you consider the following:

1. With what little information I had at the time (both doors unlocked, no answer from two bells, both HIGHLY unusual, no sound from within), not knowing whether there was a BG in the house, I can't use her phone. Nothing like letting the BG know you're in the house!

2. If my grandmother had been injured by a BG or merely had a stroke or heart attack, medical attention would have been a priority. The time wasted in going to another home to call and await an LEO's response might have, in a worst case situation, been a fatal one.

3. I know my grandmother's house better than any LEO, and like you, were trained in house clearing through the military. NO LEO knows the placement of furniture and possible hiding spots better than I do. Hence, the advantage is to my favor. The risk to an LEO would be exponential, considering that he is not familiar with the room layout, furniture placement or the odd sounds of an old house. Unfamiliarity breeds hesitation, which in the LEO's line of work can get him or her killed. Having worn the badge, I can't ask someone else to take the risk. My family, my responsibility.

Had I been someone who had never had any formal training in firearms tactics and house clearing, I would agree that it was a mistake. But I have, and in an instant, I had to make a decision based on instinct. Would I have liked to have an extra set of eyes and ears to work with me? Absolutely! But sometimes what we would like to have is not always an available option.

Hope this gives you a better understanding of why I did what I did. Best wishes for a safe and happy holiday.
 
Now this isn't directed to anyone in particular, just something for all of us to think about, because I have done it, too.

Before we respond to someone, who is a complete and utter idiot, the question to ask yourself is, "is this worth killing someone over." As an armed citizen (or is that redundant :)), are you willing to allow a situation to escalate to the level of deadly force by responding to stupidity? When we respond, we are escalating rather than deescalating, and that may not be the most responsible thing to do.

How do fights start? Stupid action/comment/gesture, a response to same, another response to same, and what... At the best a fistfight, even though you are armed, or do you pull your weapon? Maybe he has a weapon and the Gods aren't smiling on you today. Over a dirty word? A weapon gives us power, but with power comes responsibility, at least that's what my Dad always taught me.

Gentlemen, when we pick up our weapons, we may think about locking our egos up in the gunsafe.

Chuck
 
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