Which influences accuracy most?

Is it the condition of the case?
Is it the bullet used?
Is it the powder?
Or COAL?
Click to expand...

Based on what you actually asked, here are my meager thoughts:


1. Bullets - you can do everything else absolutely perfect, but if the barrel simply doesn't like the projectiles, you won't get good groups. Simple as that.

2. Powder selection and charge weight - consistency is really the key here, and I do not believe that it needs to be at a .02 grain accuracy level on the charge weight to get near identical performance. Some will argue that it does. Powder selection is also important, more because you need a rifle powder for a rifle load (safety), but some guns will prefer a type of powder over another.

(Not Listed) - Primers - the right type of primer for the powder can make a difference.

3. OAL - with the exception of specific types of bullets (VLD's, for example), really kind of overrated. Most shooters won't be able to tell the difference between .003" off the lands or .10" off the lands (assuming every other aspect is the same between rounds). The biggest factor is consistency between rounds.

4. Case prep - largely overrated metric. Some swear that you need to do X or Y or Z method of case prep to get acceptable accuracy, but it has been proven more times over than not that X or Y or Z aren't required (I still trim, chamfer, debur, neck turn and a few others personally because I like consistency). Will doing so make a difference? Sure it will, but I'd bet that you'd be hard pressed to find measurable differences between rounds that have perfectly prepped brass versus so-so prepped brass out of the vast majority of rifles.

The rest of the thread is opinion on a whole lot of other things, and basically arguments on the same thing from different angles and people justifying why the do X, Y or Z to their reloads. Yes, all of them will make some difference, but the degree of difference is significant between them.
 
I have been reloading for 25+ years, just for the sport of it. for the past 7 years I reload for accuracy. Learning different things along the way, changed my RCBS F/L die to F/L Redding S type bushing dies. will adjust neck tension & headspace, two important things in accuracy. Case prep to me is alittle more involved then most have stated. This is getting like, who cleans their barrels after shooting. I do
 
Let me ask this question

If you could only have one which would you rather have ,

1) the perfectly prepped cases for your rifle ?

2) the perfect bullet for your rifle ?
 
Metal- At 100 yards I dont think either matter to much. Every bullet no matter how bad,can be made to shoot so so accurate in every rifle. Staying in the right twist rate. So now this question, Best bullet you can get, Say 308 for ease.
You have 12 bullets, Cases were never done so you have 12 bullets with COAL of 2.65 to 2.91. Neck tension is all over the place. Now tell me how accurate those rounds are going to be. Your group is going to be as bad as the guy with bad bullets. Now having a good bullet to start with is very important, but so is case prep, rifle, shooter, rest,trigger control, primer,powder, col, ect,ect.
I don't say one is more important then the other, They all are very important.
Now Minute of deer would be less important for sure. They must all come together to shoot great. Case in point- Serria Match bullets. Berger are supposed to be better, Lapua are supposed to be better, 2 or 3 others I can not right now remember their names( you Probably know) But yet Serria bullets win more matches every year. Is it because more people use Serria?. Is it because of case prep, Is it because Serria is better?. I have e mailed Serria this year to see if they will sponsor my matches this year, Not holding my breath, but sure would be proud to get picked.
 
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4runnerman, good luck this year on your matches. You run with the big boys, I'm a good shooter but not in that class. From your posts we are on the same page. Again Good luck Chris
 
The bullet has the most impact on accuracy.

Ultimately, the ingredient from a reload that does the flying... will make the most difference.

A perfect example is Fed. 50gr Tipped Varmint.

Loaded in the same brass as Amer. Eagle XM / .223 55gr FMJ

Probably with the same type of propellant.

Sold for a dollar more then XM 193 per 20 .... yet will shoot 1 MOA all day long at 100 yds.
 
Practice!!! After ten years of 12 different calibers I've mastered them all!! And and a half million bullets to practice with
 
Metal god asked:


If you could only have one which would you rather have ,

1) the perfectly prepped cases for your rifle ?

2) the perfect bullet for your rifle ?
Click to expand...


Metal, IME (& both my posts have steered the thinking in this direction) that the issues you and James are asking about are so far down the accuracy foodchain that realistically you may seldom ever get down the list that far. Also on your question - Its really not and either or. I believe if there was such a thing as the perfect bullet and case any reloader would choose both.

Clark's accuracy list is a good example. There are so many factors regarding the rifle, the shooter and the consistency of all our reloads, that the 2 items your asking about come into play way down on any list of improved accuracy. Plus, Its not just an opinion - I read years of experience behind Clark's list and my experience is similar to that.

Since your comparing "perfects" Think of it this way:
The perfect bullet and case prep compared to
The perfectly accurate rifle.

I'd take the rifle every time and work-up (experiment , etc.) to produce a good reload that a "perfect rifle" will like.

Wouldn't you ?
 
I'd take the rifle every time and work-up (experiment , etc.) to produce a good reload that a "perfect rifle" will like.

Wouldn't you ?
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I choose the rifle, no matter what bullet etc. I choose time, time is a factor.

F. Guffey
 
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I'd take the rifle every time and work-up (experiment , etc.) to produce a good reload that a "perfect rifle" will like.

Wouldn't you ?
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I don't know how to put it any more simply than I already have... but let's try again.

All these posts regarding rifle and training above all else continue to miss the point.

Of course they're paramount. We reload to shoot and we usually shoot to improve so training is a given.

But... when a load doesn't shoot well in a rifle, let's say the best rifle we can afford, we don't run out and buy a new, better, rifle. We tweak our loads.

Hence why I'm focussing on reloading components and technique.

And, above all else, this was simply a questioning on the concept of reloading, not because I plan to somehow focus on one and only one component from now on.

However, I spend hours on case prep and charge weight and minutes on bullet seating so last time I just became curious as to whether the ratio of time spent on each was proportional to the benefits they each bring to the table.
 
Is it the condition of the case?
Is it the bullet used?
Is it the powder?
Or COAL?
Click to expand...

There are only 4 things on the chain to consider . That's all that was asked in the OP . Then later clarified not to include the rifle or shooter . 4runnerman brought up the point of having wildly different case prep and see how that goes . I believe the way he explained that case prep would cause problems . How ever the re-loader would need to use multiple neck bushings and change the seating die often as well as other things to have that inconsistent of case prep . That's not realistic for even the most noob of reloaders . That's why I said (I bet I can grab a once fired cases . wipe them down with a rag size them with a standard Redding die, prime and charge them . Then seat the best match bullets for my rifle in them ) Because that's about as minimum one can do . my point was to load them per the manuals specs . One standard die sizing them all and seated to what ever the book recommends .

I have the ability to do very different case prep from case to case pretty easy with my bushing dies , comp shell holders and micrometer seating dies . I even have a bunch of cheap Taiwan NATO stamped brass I can use . When I have some extra time I'll go ahead and do some testing . It may be awhile but I'll put it on the list :)
 
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Pond, James Pond, it is always something I do not understand, I accept that.

In the real world a builder of one very fine rifle called and said he had problems with a magnificent rifle. He explained he had taken the rifle to smiths with bore scopes and all the tools necessary to find the problem. And I listened.

When he finished he ask me where I would start when trouble shooting. I explained I would make test cases. I would start with drilling out the flash hold on at least 5 fired cases. I explained to him I would neck size the cases and then seat bullets of different weight. After seating the bullets 'short' I would remove the bolt then chamber a test case and with a cleaning rod I would push the bullet out to the rifling to determine free bore.

The rifle was a 7mm Wildcat, when I pushed a 170 grain bullet out of the case it came out of the case and traveled down the throat before contacting the rifling. The free bore could not be cleaned up with a 300 Weatherby length case. He wanted to know what caused the long throat. I said "I don't know".

What did the rifle like? We loaded 100 rounds with different powders and weight of bullets etc. We went to the range, to me, strange. The rifle had a small window of accuracy, more powder, less powder caused the groups to open up. Heavier bullets, lighter bullets the accuracy started spreading.

All he wanted from me was help in determining 'what happened', About the same time he built the rifle he built 4 others, the accuracy of the other 4 rifles shot anything, the owners had pet loads and could explain how they decided on 'their pet loads'.

F. Guffey
 
F. Guffey: I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say with the 7mm wildcat anecdote unless it is that in the case of that rifle bullet weight and charge weight had the greatest effect on accuracy.

Is that what you are saying?
 
7mm wildcat anecdote unless
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I understand some of this is over most reloaders head, if I miss someone so be it.

The rifle was screwed. the builder did not know how or when it happened. In an effort to try and determine what someone was thinking when the rifle was throated we loaded up 5 boxes of ammo. There was no advantage to the narrow window of ammo that was accurate, it was built for hunting with ammo that would shoot flat and long distance.

To fix, the barrel had to be set back .400" or the barrel had to be replaced. Then there was all gas cutting while the bullet was traveling threw the throat.

F. Guffey
 
This certainly isn't going over my head: you're writing about a screwed rifle issue and not about bullet weight and powder charge and so it doesn't actually relate to the points in the OP.

That is all well and good, and yes it shows that sometimes a rifle is at fault, but it is not dealing with what the OP and the thread was about.

I really would like to stick to the points in the OP or the thread gets side-tracked.
 
I understand that my question in the OP is and, therefore, should have been a simple issue to discuss.

Some have managed to with apparent ease, some not.
 
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