Which influences accuracy most?

4runnerman,

I could give you 20 loads from a 308 that will make one hole at 100 yards, but fall apart at 300 plus.
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I'd say any load in 308 that can make one hole at 100 yards is a group where one round hit and 19 misfired. Never seen any 308 Win shoot anywhere near that tight, with any load, especially at 100 yards.

Bull barrels while you can shoot more non stop are no more accurate than a skinny one.
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Except it is easier to make an consistent bull barrel than a consistent skinny barrel. The greater mass of a bull barrel also dampens internal recoil forces for more consistent accuracy from inconsistent shooters.

But technically it isn't the barrel that makes the hole in the target, that's the bullet. And the best barrel in the world will shoot like crap if fed crap ammo.

Accuracy means putting the bullet where you intend, consistency is how a given load performs in a given rifle. And it it easier to make a bull barrel that shoots consistently simply because you mess with it less during manufacturing.

Jimro
 
Jimro- 308's are very accurate. 100 yards is very close. One hole is very easy to do. See 308's doing it on a weekly basis at the range. Nothing special about that. My point being 100 yards is way to close to call a load for accuracy.
 
4runnerman,

I'd challenge you to more conclusively prove your hypothesis.

I'd also say that managing a "one hole group" at 100 is either a consistent thing for a load/rifle combination, or it's just the luck of circle error probability. Falling for the "Texas Rifleman Fallacy" of only highlighting the tightest groups isn't a true indicator of the rifles performance.

I have not yet experienced a load that shot well at 100 go to hell past 300. Except when the wind is blowing, then any load can perform poorly because the conditions are not consistent no matter how consistent the load.

Jimro
 
Jim- I do not fart around at 100 yards at all anymore. I shoot a min of 300 yards or more. I shoot with maybe 10 to 15 guys every weekend. Last year for the heck of it we did bring our rifles in to 100 to fart around-I shot a .151 group right off the bat with the 6BR. Now with a 308 to make a one hole group at 100 yards is not to hard time after time. I do not pretend that I do not have fliers now and then,Everyone does but 9 out of 10 times I will shoot one hole at 100 yards. I do not have hunting rifles, Most my rigs are Target Rifles ( I do not hunt anymore)but as I said 100 yards is way to close for anything other than a 22. I get out to the Bosses place maybe 2 times a month and I am shooting at 1000 to 1400 yards. The thrill of 100 yards is no thrill at all.

Again Jim-The point I am making is if a bullet(load) is going to go South on you 100 yards is not far enough for it to show up very well.
My 6MMBR- 107 gn Serria Match bullets- 30.5 gns RL-15- Solid one hole 100 yards- 300 yards opens up to 2 plus inches. Same load except 28.8 gns RL-15 solid one hole at 100 yards and 1 inch at 300. My 308- 168 gn Serria-42.0 gns RL15-one hole 100 yards-3 plus at 300 yards- same load 43.2 gns RL-15 , One hole 100 yards 1.5 inches at 300.
 
It's been a while since Mr. Pond got his Sig 400, but we still don't know for sure if he's had the thing really looked over as far as seeing if the bbl is torqued correctly or if there's a gross high spot on the receiver face.
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And I'm unlikely to ever know. I have absolutely zero gunsmith contacts here and I'd have no idea of their competence so I'm going to have to assume it is OK, or at least hope it is.

All the same, this thread is by no means focussed on my Sig's performance. It was just a general query.

The most influence is the shooter, accounting for 90% of all of it.
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True but I want to focus on the other 10%. Have a look at post #36: it clarifies what I'm trying to understand.
 
They say that accuracy is a 3 legged stool: shooter, rifle, and ammo.

In the mid 1990s I was not getting good groups with the 308 FAL rifles I was building. The gun forum answer was, "Your surplus ammo is inaccurate. You need 168 gr Sierra match king bullets."

I loaded up boxes of 168 gr Match kings, and I still got 6 moa.

So after a lifetime of being an internet gun nut, I can tell I am bitter about a couple of things:
1) SAAMI registered pressures and load books were brought down from the mountain by Moses.
2) Esoteric benchrest techniques suggested for 6 moa problems.
3) Sear polishing Mosin Nagants with a 12 pound trigger spring gets 100,000 youtube views.
4) Firing an AK while wearing a bikini gets 1,000,000 views. Everytime I watch it I get more bitter.
 
In the mid 1990s I was not getting good groups with the 308 FAL rifles I was building. The gun forum answer was, "Your surplus ammo is inaccurate. You need 168 gr Sierra match king bullets."

I loaded up boxes of 168 gr Match kings, and I still got 6 moa.
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OK I totally get where your coming from . How ever with out knowing all that was being said in your gun forum . I'd think changing bullets would be one of the first things I tried to fix the problem .

If My rifle was shooting 6 moa ,my first choice to fix the problem would not be to change the barrel or take some shooting lessons .

It also would not be to start

deburring the flash hole
or
setting the shoulders back a couple more thou
or
turning the neck
or
switching dies
or
changing powders
or
changing primers


None of those would be the first thing I checked but lower on the list would be a couple things I'd try next . Only after trying quite a few things would I start to look at the rifle . Now during that whole process something may jump out at ya that says it's the rifle or the shooter but for me that's not where I'd start .

If you go back to Pond's OP you will see he was clear on the question .

which aspect of reloading had the greatest effect on accuracy in a given rifle.
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He's talking reloading and you only get one rifle to to shoot those loads from .
 
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4runnerman,

Now with a 308 to make a one hole group at 100 yards is not to hard time after time. I do not pretend that I do not have fliers now and then,Everyone does but 9 out of 10 times I will shoot one hole at 100 yards. I do not have hunting rifles, Most my rigs are Target Rifles ( I do not hunt anymore)but as I said 100 yards is way to close for anything other than a 22. I get out to the Bosses place maybe 2 times a month and I am shooting at 1000 to 1400 yards. The thrill of 100 yards is no thrill at all.
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If 9 out of 10 times is one hole, then over 20 shots you should have two flyers.... Unless you meant that 9 out of 10 times you shoot a 20 shot group at 100 you make one hole, in which case your flyer rate is about 0.5%.

But 100 yards doesn't make sense for you, with your rifles, with your handloads. Of course maybe you should think about it from Pond's point of view, as a relatively new shooter, in Estonia, trying to get the most accuracy he can from the rifle he has and components available.

I'd say that since 1 hole groups are so easy you should try it with a rack grade rifle and commercial ammo. Just some random 308 you pull off the shelf some where and winchester white box. And then if you can do it, try handing it to your wife, or some random stranger and have them repeat it.

If the 308 is so inherently accurate, should be no problem right? Well not so much. Hand crafted ammo to a hand cut match chamber in an 18 pound rifle is a whole different story compared to commercial chamber and commercial or untuned handloaded ammo in an 8 pound rifle.

Jimro
 
Jim you are right. I do not shoot store ammo, never have. I also have no regular hunting rifles per say. I buy a rifle,I buy a die set the same day. I have 9 rifles now and none have ever seen a store round fired down them. That is the reason I got into reloading. I do maybe :D get to0 carried away with the accuracy part of shooting,but that is what I shoot for. I do not plink. Now rethinking-I do have a Savage in 223 and 243 that are the Axis. Both will shoot one hole at 100 yards also.
 
Those Axis rifles are a very good buy, and Savage makes very good barrels for a commercial company.

I know one guy who couldn't get his Hog Hunter to group with anything heavier than 165gr bullets though. 155 and under and sub MOA easy for 5 shot groups.

Jimro
 
The question is, Which influences accuracy the most? You can work up a load for any distance from 100-1000 4runnerman and I, I feel answered the question without going off the subject.
 
I feel each one will effect accuracy. Most attention will be in case prep, if your sloppy with any one of them it will effect your group size.
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I disagree :

I bet I can grab a once fired cases . wipe them down with a rag size them with a standard Redding die, prime and charge them . Then seat the best match bullets for my rifle in them . I'll shoot circles around you at distance with you using the best prepped case in the world shooting light crappy soft point flat based bullets . Now don't for get you say case prep is most important so you don't get to pick the bullet you use , any bullet should do fine . After all case prep has more to do with accuracy then Bullet or powder after rifle and shooter . Right ? ( NOT ! ) :)

Do me a favor . Take those best prepped cases you guys have been using that are shooting those .100 moa groups at 100yards and throw a crappy Remington FMJ on the top of those and let's see if you keep shooting those little tiny groups . haha
 
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That is all true Metal, but then again you can have the best bullet and if you dont trim and pay attention to your neck tension, oal, you are going to have some very large groups also. Now maybe not at 100 yards, as I have always stayed with 100 yards is no good for working up a load that you might be shooting at 600 or more. I think what is trying to be said here is-All stages of loading are important, including bullet choice,powder and primer. Most any bullet good or bad can be made to shoot half way good in any rifle with the right work up and detail. It is only smart to grab good components to start with, but not a requirement. Not sure about you, but for me-I never got into reloading for the cost savings. I got into it for the accuracy part of it. I like to shoot extreme distances and when I get good at that distance-I move it back another 100 yards and start all over. I am very confident in my ability to shoot 1000 yards now.
Have dabbled at 1400 already.
 
I read an article in Handloader magazine a few years back where the guy did some testing with match prepped brass and brass with no special prepping at all....After a substantial amount of testing his conclusions and data showed that there was no statistical difference....nada

I have tried all the little tricks with the brass too trying to improve accuracy and never noticed any measurable difference either.....So I quit doing it and have never looked back.

The bullet plays the biggest role in accuracy in my experience.
 
Damon- That could be very true for all me and you know, But when you go talk to the best shooters around they will tell you a much different story. They all use Lapua Brass, they all keep .002 neck tension, They weigh their brass. I guarantee you they don't do it because they have extra money to spend. I also read a article that showed that each step of brass prep could add 2% accuracy to your load. Now 2% is not that much but when you add all those 2% up it comes to something. I want every 2% i can gain when I go to a Match.
 
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I would not doubt that there are accuracy rituals that yield 2%, that I will never be able to detect the difference with 5 shot groups at 100y.
With a big game rifle that is the difference between 1.50" and 1.53"?
No, that 2% is on some tiny 1/2 moa competitor or varmint rifle. So to my big game rifle, it would be the difference between 1.50" and 1.51".
If I shoot two groups and one is 1.25" and one is 1.75", I average them and say it is a 1.5" rifle. That 0.010" improvement from pixie dust on the brass will never be detected by such a crude instrument as me.
I would really love to, before I die, get my effective no wind hunting range out from 500 yards to 600 yards. That is my dream is to get the bullets consistently inside the 12" ring at 600 yards.
There may be one thing holding me back I will find, or I may have to take on a laundry list of additional accuracy rituals.
 
Even M118, the original 173gr FMJBT with IMR4895, could hold 2 MOA at 600 from an accuracy rest in no wind.

I stopped worrying about getting one hole groups from a rested rifle a long time ago. I've never seen anyone make one hole groups from a sling (with iron sights). Bipod (with scope) yes, for three shots, but never for 20. Humans just can't hold a rifle consistently enough, which is why the benchrest game is used from a benchrest.

There exists a point of diminishing return on accuracy, and a good powder charge with a good bullet and a consistent primer seem to be the most important. Once you've got that, then I'd go through the whole brass prep ritual.

Jimro
 
#1 factor is the barrel. A bad barrel will not produce good accuracy no matter what you put through it while a great barrel can give ok accuracy with below-the-best components.

#2 is the projectile. The best projectiles can produce great accuracy with different powders and different charge weights. Substandard bullets will significantly drag down accuracy no matter how good a barrel.

#3 is determining a good powder / charge weight combination for a given projectile, in your rifle.

Brass prep, bullet pointing, tweaking seating depths, weight sorting bullets and brass, base-to-ogive sorting bullets etc. does make a difference too but the return is much smaller than for the 3 above and also makes more difference at longer distances (600 - 1000 yards depending on cartridge).

In terms of shooter vs rifle, the rifle is more important than the shooter, within reason. If shooting for score, an OK shooter with a .75 MOA capable rifle / load will likely beat a great shooter with a 2 MOA rifle /load in calm conditions.
 
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