cool hand luke 22:36
New member
Time to buy poutine futures. There's definitely going to be a run on it now that the Canuckleheads north of the border are flush with their funny money.
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When will the decline of America reach the point of no return?
- Thread starter grymster2007
- Start date
Time to buy poutine futures. There's definitely going to be a run on it now that the Canuckleheads north of the border are flush with their funny money.
Wildalaska
This thread is premature, as we haven’t reached an accord that America is in decline at all.
Actually I do think America is in real trouble and past the point of no return. Primarily because we now have a generation that has no idea of why America came to be “The” world power in the first place. In fact I think we are at least two generations gone.
Further more I think that because America is slipping the future for the rest of the world isn’t too bright. Be that as it may I suspect that other events may overtake this course of decline. I think that the same interest that are moving our country towards socialism will have a big hand in bringing about a full scale global war that will ultimately supersede any decline of our country.
But if you stick with the majority of qualified scientists
There it is again. Well I guess if you’re selective enough in your criteria you can find a “majority” behind every tree.
Between the choice of believing scientist that use the words 'direct evidence that correlates" and those that use words like "very likely based on apparent" I will go with the guys presenting hard evidence over presumptive hypothesis. The difference is one group has facts and has come to a conclusion based on them and the other group has a conclusion and is looking for facts to support it.
I don't believe NOAA has presented any leprechaun theories. But I do think I heard that cow's methane emissions are a factor. Credibility?
I don't believe NOAA has presented any leprechaun theories. But I do think I heard that cow's methane emissions are a factor. Credibility?
Unregistered
Moderator
The whole global warming thing is very difficult to sort out. Most scientists who say it is caused by man are liberals funded by liberal groups. Most scientist that say it is not caused by man are funded by oil and energy companies.
There is so much bias involved, it is hard to sort fact from fiction. My opinion is that global warming is happening, and it is probably mostly not the result of man, but certainly we have to be contributing to it some.
There are plenty of good reasons why alternative fuels need to be developed, and global warming may or may not be a significant reason. I think any scientist who feels very strongly one way or the other should be ignored. He is probably in somebody's pocket.
There is so much bias involved, it is hard to sort fact from fiction. My opinion is that global warming is happening, and it is probably mostly not the result of man, but certainly we have to be contributing to it some.
There are plenty of good reasons why alternative fuels need to be developed, and global warming may or may not be a significant reason. I think any scientist who feels very strongly one way or the other should be ignored. He is probably in somebody's pocket.
The earth has been lots warmer than it is now:
- age of dinosaurs for millions of years, hot, steamy, swampy, odorous, and noisey....
The earth has been lots colder than it is now:
- ice ages, multiple and recurrent (20 plus, and counting) over at least 500 - 750 million years - the most recent ice age ended ~15,000 years ago when the earth went into a global warming cycle again (imagine that)
Yes, man's production of CO2 has speeded up the current global warming cycle - by roughly 100 years ahead of where it would have been without us... To us that 100 years on 'fast forward' is a steaming political issue - in geothermal cycles it is not even a blink of the eye...
Are we in decline (the USA, that is)? Well, that depends on what you measure..
In technology?
Nope, we are Numero Uno, The Big Cahuna, the 800 Pound Gorilla, and the biggest Parrot that ever said, "Polly wants a cracker, N O W!"
We have immigrated many of the best minds of the world for the past 5 generations... We supplied them with the incentives of a capitalist society whereby they reap the rewards of their creative intellects. What an engine of science, industry, and commerce we have created...
In stature per the other nations?
Yup, in decline in how we are perceived... In decline in our ability to influence other nations through the President's Bully Pulpit... In decline in our ability to shape future events... Britain went through the same cycle and lost its empire, so will we eventually... China is the up and comer for the next heavyweight title of World Superpower...
In military power?
Nope, not at the moment.. We are The Super Power militarily... However that title takes lots and lots and lots of money to keep it polished and shiny... Our dollar is in decline currently, and much depends on how that plays out... We saw what happened to the USSR when it ran out of money AND the will to persue power - which are the same thing...
As a country?
I think we are not in decline... The hispanics who flood this country are desperate to achieve the american dream, the good life, La Dolce Vita... In two generations they will be just like us, ugly americans all... (God help em)
We are still the best society in history to live in, we have a responsive political system, the courts have procedures to protect the rights and interests of even the weak, the helpless, and, yes, the criminal among us...
We have the best medical system in the history of man...
(don't get sidetracked into who gets it free and who pays - those are political issues, not science)
World leaders who get ill, and the merely wealthy and well connected, rush to the USA the minute they get a disease... No medical system in the world is better suited to treat cancer, and a host of other complex diseases... Even the pampered citizens of Canada and Britain hot foot it here when they need to bypass the waiting lists and ques of their countries - which is THEIR form of rationing...
Lots to be positive about... Not much will change in our lifetimes... Energy will cost more and it will be harder to achieve the American Dream, but no flat out collapse....
cheers ... denny
- age of dinosaurs for millions of years, hot, steamy, swampy, odorous, and noisey....
The earth has been lots colder than it is now:
- ice ages, multiple and recurrent (20 plus, and counting) over at least 500 - 750 million years - the most recent ice age ended ~15,000 years ago when the earth went into a global warming cycle again (imagine that)
Yes, man's production of CO2 has speeded up the current global warming cycle - by roughly 100 years ahead of where it would have been without us... To us that 100 years on 'fast forward' is a steaming political issue - in geothermal cycles it is not even a blink of the eye...
Are we in decline (the USA, that is)? Well, that depends on what you measure..
In technology?
Nope, we are Numero Uno, The Big Cahuna, the 800 Pound Gorilla, and the biggest Parrot that ever said, "Polly wants a cracker, N O W!"
We have immigrated many of the best minds of the world for the past 5 generations... We supplied them with the incentives of a capitalist society whereby they reap the rewards of their creative intellects. What an engine of science, industry, and commerce we have created...
In stature per the other nations?
Yup, in decline in how we are perceived... In decline in our ability to influence other nations through the President's Bully Pulpit... In decline in our ability to shape future events... Britain went through the same cycle and lost its empire, so will we eventually... China is the up and comer for the next heavyweight title of World Superpower...
In military power?
Nope, not at the moment.. We are The Super Power militarily... However that title takes lots and lots and lots of money to keep it polished and shiny... Our dollar is in decline currently, and much depends on how that plays out... We saw what happened to the USSR when it ran out of money AND the will to persue power - which are the same thing...
As a country?
I think we are not in decline... The hispanics who flood this country are desperate to achieve the american dream, the good life, La Dolce Vita... In two generations they will be just like us, ugly americans all... (God help em)
We are still the best society in history to live in, we have a responsive political system, the courts have procedures to protect the rights and interests of even the weak, the helpless, and, yes, the criminal among us...
We have the best medical system in the history of man...
(don't get sidetracked into who gets it free and who pays - those are political issues, not science)
World leaders who get ill, and the merely wealthy and well connected, rush to the USA the minute they get a disease... No medical system in the world is better suited to treat cancer, and a host of other complex diseases... Even the pampered citizens of Canada and Britain hot foot it here when they need to bypass the waiting lists and ques of their countries - which is THEIR form of rationing...
Lots to be positive about... Not much will change in our lifetimes... Energy will cost more and it will be harder to achieve the American Dream, but no flat out collapse....
cheers ... denny
Unregistered
Moderator
Has a nation in decline ever realized it was in decline before it was too late?
Has a nation in decline ever realized it was in decline before it was too late?
Probably not but then I don’t think any nation had the wealth of information at it’s fingertips that we do. On the other hand I think the cry that the end was near was present in other nations in the past but just like today it got lost and/or ignored in the public dialogue such as that dialogue may have existed at the time.
Britain went through the same cycle and lost its empire, so will we eventually...
Actually I don’t think we have an empire as such. The countries that we have taken in like Puerto Rico weren’t conquered or won. As far as I know all the countries that would be considered U.S. possessions are so by choice.
When I speak of the decline of America I’m speaking mostly of the type of government system we have. I see our country moving towards socialism which the history of socialism as far back as it can be found is dismal (can you say bankrupt?) and usually bloody. Secondly I think that once the U.S. is gone the rest of the world is pretty much over with. We just closed out a 40 year fight with the Soviet Union which if we had not been here all of Europe would now be standing in bread lines. Just the most obvious example. There is a very, very long list of things that didn’t happen just because the U.S. existed in the world. It would only take some very subtle changes to change all that. For instance as long as the press is in the pocket of any one particular political party, once the internet gets locked down and regulated… Really it wouldn’t take that much to completely change the face of this country.
We have at least two generation who have no idea why this country survived long enough to become THE world super power. Once the Constitution became a “Living Breathing Document” we were in trouble. It was at that time that our rights became negotiable. Once God was dead we were in trouble because if your rights don’t issue forth from God but instead are given to you by your government then your government has the “Right” to revoke those rights whether it’s for the children or the common good or what ever hype the government regulated press is spinning out that week.
Nope, we are definitely in trouble and I think the cause is far bigger and pervasive that anyone realizes. Two generations, we are definitely past the point of no return.
I'm not sure I understand your response. Could you expand on it.Probably not but then I don’t think any nation had the wealth of information at it’s fingertips that we do. On the other hand I think the cry that the end was near was present in other nations in the past but just like today it got lost and/or ignored in the public dialogue such as that dialogue may have existed at the time.Has a nation in decline ever realized it was in decline before it was too late?
Hawaii was forced to assume protectorate status and eventually became a state after vested economic interests affiliated with the US government dominated their territory. There is a healthy secessionist movement in Hawaii. The Philipines were conquered outright and held as a colony for a long time, true, they're an independant country now, but it took a while. Panama remains more or less bound to the US government by the fact that the official currency of Panama is the US dollar.Actually I don’t think we have an empire as such. The countries that we have taken in like Puerto Rico weren’t conquered or won. As far as I know all the countries that would be considered U.S. possessions are so by choice.Britain went through the same cycle and lost its empire, so will we eventually...
I agree that the US government as it exists is in trouble, but by and large, the people will physically remain in America just like many people remained in Italy after the Collapse of Rome. A huge leviathan state has a momentum of its own that continues after its demise. As you've seen, there are those that cling to the US government no matter how unhealthy that activity is. It's their security blanket I suppose.When I speak of the decline of America I’m speaking mostly of the type of government system we have. I see our country moving towards socialism which the history of socialism as far back as it can be found is dismal (can you say bankrupt?) and usually bloody. Secondly I think that once the U.S. is gone the rest of the world is pretty much over with. We just closed out a 40 year fight with the Soviet Union which if we had not been here all of Europe would now be standing in bread lines. Just the most obvious example. There is a very, very long list of things that didn’t happen just because the U.S. existed in the world. It would only take some very subtle changes to change all that. For instance as long as the press is in the pocket of any one particular political party, once the internet gets locked down and regulated… Really it wouldn’t take that much to completely change the face of this country.
We have at least two generation who have no idea why this country survived long enough to become THE world super power. Once the Constitution became a “Living Breathing Document” we were in trouble. It was at that time that our rights became negotiable. Once God was dead we were in trouble because if your rights don’t issue forth from God but instead are given to you by your government then your government has the “Right” to revoke those rights whether it’s for the children or the common good or what ever hype the government regulated press is spinning out that week.
Nope, we are definitely in trouble and I think the cause is far bigger and pervasive that anyone realizes. Two generations, we are definitely past the point of no return.
Wildalaska
Moderator
It's their security blanket I suppose.
Better that than the alternative.
WildandcriticalthinkersknowwhatthatisAlaska TM
I'm not sure I understand your response. Could you expand on it.
Well I can’t cite actual comments or letters or newspaper opinions but I have seen and heard of these comments and opinions over the years when the subject of the decline of other countries or governments have been the topic of discussion. It’s one of those things where “Well I know I heard references to such” but it would take more time than I’m prepared to invest in order to track down. It seems to me that at least some of these references were attributed to poets and other such people.
In any event I think there are people today who understand at some level that we are in trouble and to some extent that message is getting out but it is competing with a very leftwing academic community i.e. teachers and a very leftwing media. So the message tends to get lost or worse, deliberately obfuscated or swept aside.
I see. Yes, I agree, government schools, responsible for educating the majority of American children, do teach obedience to government and that we'd be well off if only the right folks were in change of said government. The neoconservatives support the same philosophy, not surprising since they're direct descendants of Marxist Trotskyists. The issue with government schools was addressed very thoroughly by Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling by John Taylor Gatto. It helps to know the origins of compulsory government schooling, Google Horrace Mann for more information.Well I can’t cite actual comments or letters or newspaper opinions but I have seen and heard of these comments and opinions over the years when the subject of the decline of other countries or governments have been the topic of discussion. It’s one of those things where “Well I know I heard references to such” but it would take more time than I’m prepared to invest in order to track down. It seems to me that at least some of these references were attributed to poets and other such people.
In any event I think there are people today who understand at some level that we are in trouble and to some extent that message is getting out but it is competing with a very leftwing academic community i.e. teachers and a very leftwing media. So the message tends to get lost or worse, deliberately obfuscated or swept aside.
Actually I was thinking more of what you find at the collage level. It seems to me that many of the anti war/hippy generation pursued careers in either academia or politics. And so now we find them in collages and the democrat party. Mind you, I am of that generation and was once one of the kool-aid drinkers myself. Somewhere along the way I suppose I got impatient being part of the glee club cheering squad and started looking into things my self and started doing the math myself. And guess what, when I added things up I came up with completely different answers.
You know, I used to work at Hughs Tool Company which was a union plant and I remember all the time when I would drive into the lot for work there would be these people at the gate passing out flyers as part of a membership drive for some socialist organization or another. This was a very long time ago, 20 years at least. At the time I didn’t really care who they were or what they wanted. I have since come to realize that many of these people’s contemporaries went into academia or politics and now pretty much hold a controlling interest in both endeavors. Though in politics it is kind of touch and go and I believe that is largely due to the internet.
The scary thing is that the generation who remembers all the underpinning of the cold war is on its way out and the torch is being passed to a generation who thinks socialism sounds like a fair and equitable system while having no knowledge of the millions upon millions of deaths that rest firmly at the feet of socialism. And that is just the deaths that can be attributed to executions. It doesn’t even begin to address the deaths caused by poverty, bankrupt economies, lack of medicines, lack of medical machines, lack of
refrigeration, lack of…, lack of…, lack of.
Yep, no doubt about it, capitalism is the bane of man kind. (That was sarcasm by the way)
Gezzzz we’re in big trouble.
You know, I used to work at Hughs Tool Company which was a union plant and I remember all the time when I would drive into the lot for work there would be these people at the gate passing out flyers as part of a membership drive for some socialist organization or another. This was a very long time ago, 20 years at least. At the time I didn’t really care who they were or what they wanted. I have since come to realize that many of these people’s contemporaries went into academia or politics and now pretty much hold a controlling interest in both endeavors. Though in politics it is kind of touch and go and I believe that is largely due to the internet.
The scary thing is that the generation who remembers all the underpinning of the cold war is on its way out and the torch is being passed to a generation who thinks socialism sounds like a fair and equitable system while having no knowledge of the millions upon millions of deaths that rest firmly at the feet of socialism. And that is just the deaths that can be attributed to executions. It doesn’t even begin to address the deaths caused by poverty, bankrupt economies, lack of medicines, lack of medical machines, lack of
refrigeration, lack of…, lack of…, lack of.
Yep, no doubt about it, capitalism is the bane of man kind. (That was sarcasm by the way)
Gezzzz we’re in big trouble.
You've posted several truths, without doubt. Deaths from socialism are fortunately, documented on a very good web site:
1. 20th Century Democide*
2. The rest of the above site.
*Democide is defined as deaths due to government other than war.
1. 20th Century Democide*
2. The rest of the above site.
*Democide is defined as deaths due to government other than war.
Wildalaska
Moderator
Deaths from socialism are fortunately, documented on a very good web sit
That comment presupposes that Stalins USSR and Maos China were "socialist", which I reckon could be true if one looks at history in a shallow, agenda driven way
But hey, I digress, back to the doom and gloomfest at hand.
WildsomanyproblemssofewrealsolutionsAlaska TM
Unregistered
Moderator
How many people here have written their Congressman or Senator in the last year on any issue?
If you believe we are in decline and you haven't written a letter to your elected officials about something, then you are part of the problem.
Ambivalence and apathy are two factors that will contribute to decline.
If you believe we are in decline and you haven't written a letter to your elected officials about something, then you are part of the problem.
Ambivalence and apathy are two factors that will contribute to decline.
That comment presupposes that Stalins USSR and Maos China were "socialist", which I reckon could be true if one looks at history in a shallow, agenda driven way
As I recall, “communism”, a peoples utopia, was the stated goal of the USSR but it was deemed necessary to first establish a socialist government as a transitional system in order to usher in this peoples utopia.
So it seems to me that splitting hairs about definitions is a bit like rearranging the chairs on the Titanic. Whether it fits the definition of “socialism” doesn’t seem to mater since it was sold as “socialism”. It’s that old adage, “The devil is in the details”.
It's an indication of the inadequecy of public education that people equate socialism to communism and central control. You can have centrally controlled capitalism also, but nobody suggest that because some capitalism is fascist that all capitalism is fascist.
The problem is that a democracy is predicated a great deal on the literacy and education of the citizens. Alas, US economic literacy is embrassing, knowledge of political history is even worse.
It could be argued that the populace's indifference to learning about economics and politics is a good indication that they are happy with the way things are. Things like consumer confidence support this theory. If things get bad enough for enough people they will "get educated" real quickly, and then do something about it.
So how many of you guys bought Ford on the heels of GM pretty much breaking the UAW? Mark my words, there is money to be made there, since Ford is the next company who gets to take a big ole bite out of the UAW's power. What does this have to do with the thread in question? Only that it contradicts virtually every tenent on the list. Labor unions have less power than they have had any time in the last 75 - 100 years.
The problem is that a democracy is predicated a great deal on the literacy and education of the citizens. Alas, US economic literacy is embrassing, knowledge of political history is even worse.
It could be argued that the populace's indifference to learning about economics and politics is a good indication that they are happy with the way things are. Things like consumer confidence support this theory. If things get bad enough for enough people they will "get educated" real quickly, and then do something about it.
So how many of you guys bought Ford on the heels of GM pretty much breaking the UAW? Mark my words, there is money to be made there, since Ford is the next company who gets to take a big ole bite out of the UAW's power. What does this have to do with the thread in question? Only that it contradicts virtually every tenent on the list. Labor unions have less power than they have had any time in the last 75 - 100 years.