ok folks, per David if you need to dispatch a 15 lb feral cat use a naa .22. if you need to shoot a 20 lb possum or coon, again naa. consider that bad guys weigh 200+ lbs more than that...you are placing confidence in a weapon that is a ballistic dwarf to a .223 and they don't even work all the time on men that size. the coffee is brewing dark and strong and some of us aren't smelling it.
When a NAA Mini would be appropriate
- Thread starter saskuach
- Start date
Bill DeShivs
New member
ANY gun is better than no gun-period.
I hade this one http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z161/tomh1426/naa.jpg
It was the only one that I could hold with my hand and I like how it folded up like a knife.
I always thought of it as a novelty
It was the only one that I could hold with my hand and I like how it folded up like a knife.
I always thought of it as a novelty
281 Quad Cam
New member
The NAA rivals much more acceptable alternatives in both size and weight. That in mind I'm wondering why you'd want a few .22lr over 7 or 8 .32 ACP?
Last time I checked, the NAA isn't that small, and it isn't that light. I suppose if you are trying to fit it into body cavities the NAA would prove more comfortable.... But considering it's just going into a pocket - its not going anywhere a .32 semi auto wouldn't fit.
Last time I checked, the NAA isn't that small, and it isn't that light. I suppose if you are trying to fit it into body cavities the NAA would prove more comfortable.... But considering it's just going into a pocket - its not going anywhere a .32 semi auto wouldn't fit.
281 Quad Cam
New member
Bill I hate to contend with you on this point, because I've said that myself when defending mouse guns, and I do believe it. But when were talking about a firearm that is going to take several moments if not seconds to make ready to fire, before getting off one clumsy shot before having to manually cock the single action cylinder... whilst being attacked. I mean imagine the pit-bull tearing at your left arm while your trying to cock that little hammer with your right, and the entire piece is trying to slip out of your hands during the process?
At that point would it be better to fight with the weapons god gave you?
Bill DeShivs
New member
Efficient use of any gun takes practice. The NAA is not too slow or difficult for the first shot-with practice.
I did replace my NAA with a Keltec P32, BTW.
I did replace my NAA with a Keltec P32, BTW.
I read of one instance where a .22 SHORT NAA saved a man's life- not against one bad guy, but several. It was during the first Gulf War and one of our soldiers was taken as a P.O.W. Of course he was disarmed, but his captors overlooked the NAA sewn into his coat collar by his wife before he left. A piece of velcro kept the little pocket/holster closed until needed. Without firing a shot, he escaped from his captors and got back safe.
I read of WWII agents, male and female, who sometimes actually "hid" weapons, including single-shot rimfires, in the body's natural, uhh-emm, "holster". These agents (and the soldier above) of course relied on larger, more powerfull weapons most of the time, but I bet when they actually needed them, they were glad they had those little pipsquecks.
I read of WWII agents, male and female, who sometimes actually "hid" weapons, including single-shot rimfires, in the body's natural, uhh-emm, "holster". These agents (and the soldier above) of course relied on larger, more powerfull weapons most of the time, but I bet when they actually needed them, they were glad they had those little pipsquecks.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Any documentation on this great Gulf War amazing self rescue? No doubt NAA would love to have a verified story like that for promoting their product. There were not that many American soldiers taken prisoner in the Gulf war.
See http://www.aiipowmia.com/pgw/pgwpwmia.html
So the story seems far fetched. Let's see, it is a love story (wife did the sewing) about an underdog (American soldier) who was taken prisoner but who was able to outsmart his multiple captors via his preplanning and then was able to retrieve his terribly underpowered little .22 short revolver and hold off multiple captors so as to be able to effect an escape at gun point, but being the underdog hero, never fired a shot and the Iraqis were so intimidated that they didn't apparently try to follow him, sound an alarm, etc. Sorry, just too amazing to be believed.
See http://www.aiipowmia.com/pgw/pgwpwmia.html
So the story seems far fetched. Let's see, it is a love story (wife did the sewing) about an underdog (American soldier) who was taken prisoner but who was able to outsmart his multiple captors via his preplanning and then was able to retrieve his terribly underpowered little .22 short revolver and hold off multiple captors so as to be able to effect an escape at gun point, but being the underdog hero, never fired a shot and the Iraqis were so intimidated that they didn't apparently try to follow him, sound an alarm, etc. Sorry, just too amazing to be believed.
I belive it was while he was being transported to a camp/interrogation center that he affected his escape. I read it in a Guns and Ammo circa the first Gulf War. It was in Cooper's Corner. But you're right, if someone had a NAA pointed at them, they'd laugh at the size and keep right on doing whatever they wanted to do. It's sooo small, I doubt getting shot with one would even hurt.
I know if someone pointed one at me and said freeze, they'd have to shoot me at LEAST four times before I'd even acknowledge it's a gun.
*whispers* Most people don't want to get shot, even with a .22 short, and will do pretty much whatever is required to ensure that doesn't happen. And in light of the fact that Iraqi soldiers in that war were surrendering to news crews, it's really not that amazing. Then again, maybe Cooper made the whole thing up to extoll the virtues of the mighty .22 short. We all know how he loved small-caliber weapons.
I know if someone pointed one at me and said freeze, they'd have to shoot me at LEAST four times before I'd even acknowledge it's a gun.
*whispers* Most people don't want to get shot, even with a .22 short, and will do pretty much whatever is required to ensure that doesn't happen. And in light of the fact that Iraqi soldiers in that war were surrendering to news crews, it's really not that amazing. Then again, maybe Cooper made the whole thing up to extoll the virtues of the mighty .22 short. We all know how he loved small-caliber weapons.
Thanks for all the replies - just as I expected, opinions varied like the mood of a teenage girl on the rag
For the record, I side with you guys who say "anything is better" or "shoot them in the ear." This isn't what I carry to protect myself in a moving gunfight against multiple coordinated assailants armed with long arms wearing armor. In real life I have friends who were attacked by BGs armed with knives, and I personally have been confronted by a loony with a screwdriver. This is what I am arming myself against with my NAA. He'd never even see me draw.
I am aware that "for just a little bit more size and weight" I can get something better. This logic can be extended all the way up to a shotgun, provided I am willing to wear a trench coat every day. On the other hand, when I look down at my slacks and can just roughly make out the Mini tucked in the front pocket I think to myself "I'm glad it's as small as it is." And yes, as my budget allows I definitely will add more guns to the collection to fill as many carry niches as possible. I started with something I consider mid-size in the form of an MK9. Now I'm continuing to fill in the niches starting with the smallest - and most crucial in my opinion.
Once again, thanks for taking the time to chime in with your thoughts and experiences.
For the record, I side with you guys who say "anything is better" or "shoot them in the ear." This isn't what I carry to protect myself in a moving gunfight against multiple coordinated assailants armed with long arms wearing armor. In real life I have friends who were attacked by BGs armed with knives, and I personally have been confronted by a loony with a screwdriver. This is what I am arming myself against with my NAA. He'd never even see me draw.
I am aware that "for just a little bit more size and weight" I can get something better. This logic can be extended all the way up to a shotgun, provided I am willing to wear a trench coat every day. On the other hand, when I look down at my slacks and can just roughly make out the Mini tucked in the front pocket I think to myself "I'm glad it's as small as it is." And yes, as my budget allows I definitely will add more guns to the collection to fill as many carry niches as possible. I started with something I consider mid-size in the form of an MK9. Now I'm continuing to fill in the niches starting with the smallest - and most crucial in my opinion.
Once again, thanks for taking the time to chime in with your thoughts and experiences.
seeker_two
New member
It's better than harsh language....but not as good as a 12 gauge SxS. As long as you know its ballistic limitations and plan for its use, you can rely on it.
I have a .25ACP for the same reason. With quality, European-made ammo, it'll see me through most situations. However, I usually have something bigger stored nearby, too....
Caveat Emptor.....
I have a .25ACP for the same reason. With quality, European-made ammo, it'll see me through most situations. However, I usually have something bigger stored nearby, too....
Caveat Emptor.....
Double Naught Spy
New member
Okay, so what do you carry for moving gunfights, multiple assailants, guys with long guns, etc? How do you get to predetermine that the only person that assaults you will be a visually impaired looney with a screwdriver?
Depending on who compiled the stats, something like 40-70% of attacks involve more than one bad guy.
David Armstrong
Moderator
David really wishes that when others use his name they are at least accurate in their claims. David has not suggested anyone should use anything on anything.
Ummm, not to belabor a point, but much the same can be said for the .45 ACP. Of course, given that you are unable to kill a downed deer with 3 shots perhaps the problem isn't with the caliber at all.
David. You really wish to go this far out on the limb for a .22 mag? Seriously, try your duece duece on something more substantial than a tabby tree climber and see if the response is something you would trust on an enraged human. Research the author Wiley Clapp. He has shot many wild animals on his farm and thinks very little of this caliber or weapon. I respect your freedom to carry whatever weapon you choose, just know you are going against conventional wisdom. Please respect my opinion and my willingness to come out and share a story. I have also won 2 PPC matches in Columbus, GA and have killed a few deer in my time, so I would appreciate you not insinuating my accuracy or gamesmanship are in question. Good luck to you with this or any other gun you select to defend yourself.
David Armstrong
Moderator
I don't think it is going out on a limb at all. BTW, my preference is for the .22LR, not the Mag.
Personally I don't trust much less than a 12-gauge on an enraged human. However, that is not and was not the thrust of this thread. The guy asked about using the .22 NAA for self defense.
I've read lots of Wiley's stuff, he is a knowledgable and interesting writer. As for farm animals, I've shot several hundred of them myself, and the .22 was the weapon of choice in the slaughter pen. Don't remember having to shoot many of them more than once.
You know, carrying a 1911-style .45 ACP cocked and locked would probably be going against conventional wisdom also. But again, I'm not aware of the thread being "what is the conventional wisdom"? It is if a particualr gun will handle some CCW duty. It will. That is the only thing I'm really pushing here. Is it the best choice? No, probably not. But he didn't ask for the best choice either.
I'm not insinuating anything. I'm saying that nobody who knows what they are doing should have any trouble killing a downed deer with 3 shots of .22. You apparently were unable to accomplish that task. Given the nature of that task, I doubt that the caliber was the issue. I'm not sure what that has to do with accuracy or gamesmanship, as neither should have been an issue. Maybe you don't know how to deliver a coup de grace shot. I don't know what the problem was, I just know I owuldn't blame it on the gun. As Doug083 said, "How could you miss that shot at point blank? Also, why not shoot somewhere else? Not much vital in the back of the neck. Been hunting since I was 8, no shots to back of the neck. Head, yes. Throat, yes. Back of neck, not so much." I agree. Back of the neck is a lousy place to shoot. I doubt that a .38 or a .45 would have made much difference.
Personally I tend to go with a Glock 19 or an S&W 642, but I don't feel particularly handicapped with a Beretta Mdl 21.
David, where do I start? Carrying a .45 would not be against conventional wisdom. Why don't you do yourself a favor and google Bill Jordan, Gabe Suarez, Southnarc, Wiley Clapp (again), Kelly McCann, Mas Ayoob or any other knowledgable gun writer on the subject of concealed carry. You can always find a layperson who is ok with any choice, however these experts recommend going up in caliber for self defense. While I can appreciate you putting your name out on the internet, I will put my faith in the recommendation of these writers who are more credible (at least to me, I don't know you). You may be really handy with your NAA, but the average shooter cannot produce from a pocket and thumb cock a weapon that small and fire it accurately for self defense under stress. I just don't think you'll find many credible sources, like a Jim Cirillo, who would argue the finer points of derringer pistols
Double Naught Spy
New member
While out at my place, a buddy commented to me after shooting my Barrett 82A1 that it was a "Real man's gun." I laughed and explained that a 'real man's gun' is this ... as I took my NAA Mini Revolver from my pocket. He looked at me in disbelief and I suggested we go down range to the targets and that I would let him fire it.
We stood at 5 yards and I let him shoot all 5 shots. Granted, he wasn't used to shooting the gun, but all 5 were on the silhoutte in a nice 14" grouping. He said to me, "How do you hit anything with it?" and so I explained.
"Like I said, this is a real man's gun. You are not burdened with much firepower. The sights suck. The trigger sucks. Even if you hit with all 5 shots, chances are your shot placement will suck and your penetration will be poor. Reloading is a painfully slow process, so slow that it isn't practical in most defensive situations. So at the end of 5 shots, you have one very pissed off aggressor and this is the point where you use it as a rock or as a weight inside your fist and you finish defending yourself with your hands. Whereas the Barrett is a wussy gun. You can hit your target at 1000 yards, long before he even knows you exist and long before he is a direct threat to you."
We stood at 5 yards and I let him shoot all 5 shots. Granted, he wasn't used to shooting the gun, but all 5 were on the silhoutte in a nice 14" grouping. He said to me, "How do you hit anything with it?" and so I explained.
"Like I said, this is a real man's gun. You are not burdened with much firepower. The sights suck. The trigger sucks. Even if you hit with all 5 shots, chances are your shot placement will suck and your penetration will be poor. Reloading is a painfully slow process, so slow that it isn't practical in most defensive situations. So at the end of 5 shots, you have one very pissed off aggressor and this is the point where you use it as a rock or as a weight inside your fist and you finish defending yourself with your hands. Whereas the Barrett is a wussy gun. You can hit your target at 1000 yards, long before he even knows you exist and long before he is a direct threat to you."
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
but the average shooter cannot produce from a pocket and thumb cock a weapon that small and fire it accurately for self defense under stress
Would someone like to cite cases where the NAA was the gun used for self-defense by civilians and failed as compared to the failure rate of other guns used by civilians?
Otherwise, this is all hot air.
The question is always whether the gun has some utility as compared to being unarmed. Most commentators just like to talk about stopping power and miss the discussion of actual outcomes.
Would someone like to cite cases where the NAA was the gun used for self-defense by civilians and failed as compared to the failure rate of other guns used by civilians?
Otherwise, this is all hot air.
The question is always whether the gun has some utility as compared to being unarmed. Most commentators just like to talk about stopping power and miss the discussion of actual outcomes.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Sure it would. Folks all over the place, including those that you list, tend to suggest the 1911 is a fine weapon, but one that is best reserved for those with a fair amount of training and/or experience, not for the typical CCW.
Maybe you should do the same, and actually read what they say. The fact that you would include Gabe Suarez in with that group indicates a pretty big gap in your knowledge all by itself, IMO.
Again, so what? The question being asked is not “what do you recommend?” the question is “is what I have OK?” In fact, your entire argument seems to be against something that nobody has said. Nobody here has said that a .22 is a particularly good choice for self defense. Nobody here has said that a derringer is a particularly good choice for self defense. That is not the issue. But since you seem to get hung upon experts, here is a bit of wisdom from Jeff Cooper: "What about the 22 for self-defense? We do not recommend it, but we certainly do not disregard it." Or perhaps you'd like this tidbit from the same source: "On the subject of wheel guns, I tend to fancy the feather-weight 22 introduced last year by Smith & Wesson. At risk of sounding loony, I maintain that the 22 long rifle is a considerably more practical cartridge than the 38 Special, or for that matter almost any other handgun cartridge."
Well, I've had a fair cross-section of folks come through class that manaaged to do just tha, so I question the accuracy of the statement. You don't need just a whole lot of accuracy for most DGUs anyway. But even given thta, again nobody has said otherwise, so I’m not sure why you bring it up. Way too many folks here like to invent arguments and then argue against themselves instead of dealing with what has been said. As usual, Glenn sums it up quite well.