What's a great 38 sp. SD ammo?

...would probably be far better served by the 5 shot j frame in 38 special...
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Couldn't disagree with this more. My last 6 years in law enforcement I was the chief firearms instructor for my department (400 armed personnel). I was responsible for all the training and qualification, including off duty weapons and concealed weapons worn by detectives and undercover deputies. I saw a lot of rounds fired down range in those 6 years and very, very few people could shoot 2", 5-shot 38 Specials well, particularly when pushed with tight time limits.

When I retired I ran my own firearms training business, qualifying people for concealed carry permits and teaching self defense classes. I did that for 10 years and saw a lot more rounds fired down range. Again, very, very few people could shoot 2" J-frames acceptably let alone well.

Every one tells me you'll only have to shoot 2-3 yards in a self defense situation so the little, difficult to control guns are no problem. I've seen way too many people miss at close distance on nice sunny days when no one was shooting back or threatening them, just me yelling to "shoot, shoot, shoot".

YMMV,
Dave
 
Have never used it in any SD situation, I have alway ike the early Hornady 140 XTP loads in .38Spl, for both J & K frame usage.

Wish they remake those with differnt powder , to get them closer to 1000fps velocity and standard pressure.
 
Dave T said:
Every one tells me you'll only have to shoot 2-3 yards in a self defense situation so the little, difficult to control guns are no problem. I've seen way too many people miss at close distance on nice sunny days when no one was shooting back or threatening them, just me yelling to "shoot, shoot, shoot".

YMMV,
Dave
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If that is the logic, than a logical conclusion to draw would also be that small auto's are no better than j frames.

Another logical conclusion is that the people who miss with j frames, would also miss with mid-size autos. (remember, by your logic - a small gun, is a small gun ie small autos are not acceptable.)

So logically, you would have to say something to the effect of, "The vast majority of people would be far better served by mid-size or larger semi autos in self defense situations." imho, that may very well be true. I'm no expert... I'm just going by what I've seen, read, and learned.

Also, I appreciate your background in law enforcement, as a trainer/instructor, and I concur that a j frame revolver is difficult to shoot - albeit no more difficult than a small/pocket or even sub-compact auto.

imho, really my opinion, I think one has to go mid-size or larger, revolver or auto if they want shoot-ability.
 
Psy Bang,

Since this is a revolver forum I didn't even get into small semi autos. The horrible shooting I've seen with the diminutive 22s and 25s was sad to behold and sadder to remember.

Dave
 
Dave T
Senior Member

Join Date: April 17, 2000
Location: Mesa, Arizona
Posts: 1,236
Quote:
...would probably be far better served by the 5 shot j frame in 38 special...
Couldn't disagree with this more. My last 6 years in law enforcement I was the chief firearms instructor for my department (400 armed personnel). I was responsible for all the training and qualification, including off duty weapons and concealed weapons worn by detectives and undercover deputies. I saw a lot of rounds fired down range in those 6 years and very, very few people could shoot 2", 5-shot 38 Specials well, particularly when pushed with tight time limits.

When I retired I ran my own firearms training business, qualifying people for concealed carry permits and teaching self defense classes. I did that for 10 years and saw a lot more rounds fired down range. Again, very, very few people could shoot 2" J-frames acceptably let alone well.

Every one tells me you'll only have to shoot 2-3 yards in a self defense situation so the little, difficult to control guns are no problem. I've seen way too many people miss at close distance on nice sunny days when no one was shooting back or threatening them, just me yelling to "shoot, shoot, shoot".
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Nice speech .. .. You are most likely right as rain .., Hardly no practice will ever prepare anyone for a life or death situation... I guess train . shoot .. shoot .. shoot ... practice.. practice.... and I pray my only target will be paper or a can or anything that will not shoot back ..

A 380 or 5 shooter 38 or 357 will be my BUG .. sometimes my primary.. .. so I practice and pray..
 
Dave T said:
Couldn't disagree with this more. My last 6 years in law enforcement I was the chief firearms instructor for my department (400 armed personnel). I was responsible for all the training and qualification, including off duty weapons and concealed weapons worn by detectives and undercover deputies. I saw a lot of rounds fired down range in those 6 years and very, very few people could shoot 2", 5-shot 38 Specials well, particularly when pushed with tight time limits.

When I retired I ran my own firearms training business, qualifying people for concealed carry permits and teaching self defense classes. I did that for 10 years and saw a lot more rounds fired down range. Again, very, very few people could shoot 2" J-frames acceptably let alone well.

Every one tells me you'll only have to shoot 2-3 yards in a self defense situation so the little, difficult to control guns are no problem. I've seen way too many people miss at close distance on nice sunny days when no one was shooting back or threatening them, just me yelling to "shoot, shoot, shoot".

YMMV,
Dave
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There's a lot of wisdom in this post. I'd like to add a couple of points:

1) Most of the people you're going to deal with in this context, though professionals (either sworn or civilian) who carry guns for a living, are not what we consider "gun people" (i.e., firearms enthusiasts). You have to accept this and arrange you drills and recommendations accordingly.

2) In addition to -- perhaps even more important than -- the short barrels with the small J-Frame revolvers is (a) their light weight, (b) their (often) skinny sights, and (c) their tiny grips and short backstrap-to-trigger distances. Back when revolvers were the norm, I found that switching an "upstairs guy" from a Model 36 (or 60) to a 2" Model 10 made a huge difference in their ability to draw, fire and hit. All by itself.

3) That said, if a student wants to use a J-Frame, the fact of the matter is that they can be used with effectiveness, but if -- and only if -- the student is willing to invest the time (and ammo) required to become comfortable and intimate -- and I mean intimate, not merely "familiar" -- with it.

4) And, to go back to the nominal thread topic, for my money and in this context, a wadcutter (preferably cast and, given my 'druthers, a cast button-nose wadcutter like the H&G #50) loaded to about 850 fps (4"; works out to about 750 fps 2") is all you need and all you want to maintain controllability.
 
Speer Gold Dot +P Short Barrel 135 gr.
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This one ^^

If I carried a 38 Special (or a J-frame 357), I'd likely carry this ammo. It's the only 38 Special defense ammo I'd choose. Chronographs at 955 f/s through my 3" bbl S&W 686.

Honorable mention goes to the 357 Mag equivalent (135gn GDHP SB); chronographs at 1153 f/s through my 3". I would likely use these if I carried a light K-frame 357.

However, I carry an L-frame, 7-shot 686 (357), 3" bbl; in its charge holes reside Speer's 158gn GDHP's. These heavies lumber through the chronograph at 1058 f/s. I'm a member of the heavy bullet mindset club - especially in the winter.
 
I respectfully disagree with Nanuk. 38 special has many great offerings of excellent self defense ammo.
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You are free to disagree. I come to my opinion from seeing lots of people shot. In the 80's 38's were pretty popular in the projects.
 
Nick_C_S said:
Honorable mention goes to the 357 Mag equivalent (135gn GDHP SB); chronographs at 1153 f/s through my 3". I would likely use these if I carried a light K-frame 357.
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I agree.

Not a bad load considering that it duplicates a decent 9mm load in terms of its perfromance and has a bonded JHP; the Gold Dot is a really good bullet and makes up for a lot of 'ills'.
 
My 357 in magnum, 6 shot, 2" EAA is not a J frame. Not at this weight. It's closer to a L or K frame & I think that makes a considerable difference at 1.9 lbs. For a 2", I really do not like a 14 or 14+ ounce 357 in magnum. It jumps all over the place IMHO. Some how the post got away from the original question.
 
otasan,

The old timers I met when I first went into law enforcement talked about that load, and most of them said it was a joke. In in the context of this thread (2" barrel 38 Specials) its velocity was so low it would sometimes bounce off a windshield. And the number of stopping failures with that load was higher than even the standard 158g RNL 38 Special.

Again YMMV,
Dave
 
feel free to disagree. I come to my opinion from seeing lots of people shot. In the 80's 38's were pretty popular in the projects.
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They are a wide range of 38 Spl ammo ... Some not as good as most ...same can be said about any ammo ..any .....
and self defense ammo has come along ways in the past 35 years .. Most 38 spl ammo in the 80's was 158 gr LRN
Personally my choice of defensive 38spl ammo will function better than most .....
 
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Dave T said:
otasan,

The old timers I met when I first went into law enforcement talked about that load, and most of them said it was a joke. In in the context of this thread (2" barrel 38 Specials) its velocity was so low it would sometimes bounce off a windshield. And the number of stopping failures with that load was higher than even the standard 158g RNL 38 Special.

Again YMMV,
Dave
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I believe that it (can't remember if it was specifically the 158 or the 200-grain LRN) was called the 'widowmaker' by those having to carry it. Probably a reason for that.
 
In the 80's 38's were pretty popular in the projects.
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Thirty years ago bullet technology was quite different. As was many of the propellants used by ammo makers.
The industry has come a long way, with many improvements since 1980.
 
They are a wide range of 38 Spl ammo ... Some not as good as most ...same can be said about any ammo ..any .....
and self defense ammo has come along ways in the past 35 years .. Most 38 spl ammo in the 80's was 158 gr LRN
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I have been in LE since 1979.
 
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