What to rely on, while killing a grizzly

I'd like to hear from someone who has shot lots of grizzlies - especially charging grizzlies.
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I haven't shot lots of grizzlies - especially charging grizzlies - but I have been on a few grizzly hunts, as a camp jack for a hunting guide. I was required to carry a 12 ga. pump with slugs. Given the advances in technology over the intervening 30 years, I'd probably go with a VERY reliable 12 ga. semi-auto with slugs ... assuming that size and weight are of less importance than firepower.

I would practice with that 12 ga. semi-auto until I could put every round it would hold in a 4" circle on a moving target.

I've seen what a grizzly does to its prey and have no desire to be on the prey end of that equation.
 
Bait

Take a few ( not so good ) friends along with you...perferably ones that you can outrun and equipe each with BEAR BELLS..aaah =peace of mind. I always carry two 1911s just in case for needed knee shots on someone who may be a tad faster! Now go and move and make some new friends.
 
I've had friends that went grizzly hunting with .300 Win Mags. Not enough if a one charges you. .375 H&H is a good choice. Not sure how shotgun slugs work on them. A .308 will just p*ss them off. :D
 
I just read posts from two guys who had been charged by brown bears twice each. One guy lived on Kodiak Island where the big browns are. He was mauled once and used a shotgun with slugs to kill the other. I think the other guy killed two bears with shotguns with slugs. I tend to pay attention to people who've had experience like that. The Alaska State Park service suggests you use either a 12 ga. or a .300 WM at a minimum.

I have lots of black bears around my house. I had one threatening me last night because I was grilling steaks outside. It seems every time I fire up the grill that bear shows up wanting my dinner. I keep either a 12 ga. with Breneke slugs available (hard cast slugs that have cutting edges built into the shape of the slug) or a .44 magnum handy and sometimes both.
 
Number one bear defense should be bear spray
Number two should be Bear Spray.
GET SOME BEAR SPRAY. IT does not matter what you are shooting, if you do not hit it in the head or spine it is going to keep coming at you if it intends to kill you.

Bear spray will dissuade 99% of bear attacks.

Aside from bear spray I carry a Smith and Wesson 329PD which is an air weight 44 mag that I load with a hard cast 270 grain RNFP. It is my last resort weapon for bear and a primary one for ****** off moose(Which I am usually more afraid of.)

I also just acquired this evening a Marlin 1895 45-70 with a 22" barrel. While I can't feasible carry it while archery hunting and expect to be able to deploy it in an emergency should I need too, Who ever is not up for the shot while archery hunting will probably carry it and every one caries the bear spray. We just had a Northern Idaho guy pay a 1,000 dollar fine for a self defense shooting.
 
What to rely on, while killing a grizzly
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You rely on your skill, and your nerve. And afterwards, you rely on a good lawyer! Because the only way you are going to get off without going to court is if the grizz is chawing on you or a close personal friend.

you may eventually beat the charge, someone did just recently, but excpect to be in court for killing a griz.

As far as I know, there's still no hunting grizzly allowed in the continental US, and I don't think it is in Alsaka, either. Big browns, on the other hand are both dangerous, and game in Ak, I believe.

Any rifle of moderate power can kill griz (defensive), if you are capable of shooting it well, at speed, under extreme stress, and a medium rifle you can shoot well is better than a heavy one you can't.

The biggest grizzly taken in the continental US was taken with a .30-40 Krag. Big guns are comforting mentally, and certainly will do the job, but YOU still have to put the bullet in the right place. .30 caliber or larger, a repeater, iron sights, or low power optics (dot or scope), and your grace under pressure is what will make the difference, because you can't shoot griz until he (or more likely She) is a clear an present danger, and by the time that happens, they are going to be pretty close, and likely moving at speed.

One thing you don't want is to find your .338 Mag (or whatever) with its variable scope set on 9x when that bear is 20yds away!

Ammo with bullets suitable for penetration over expansion is a good idea as well. Bad idea to shoot a big bear with varmint bullets! You need somthing that will go through bone, and keep going. Expansion is nice when you are hunting, and can pick your shots. When shooting defensively, you have to take the shot(s) you get, not the ones you want.

There's a reason African dangerous game rifles are big bores and shoot solids. Its because under the most dangerous conditions, they work. Big bears aren't quite the same as water buffalo or elephant, but many of the same principles apply.

A 12ga with slugs (the sabot slugs are really impressive) is far from the worst choice for defense, against most anything.
 
bears

The US Forest Service published a study called
Safety in bear country: protective measures and bullet performance at short range

You can find a pdf version on the web. The report is detailed and very informative.
 
Today, 08:22 PM #30
Doc TH
Senior Member

Join Date: December 15, 2005
Posts: 310
bears
The US Forest Service published a study called
Safety in bear country: protective measures and bullet performance at short range

You can find a pdf version on the web. The report is detailed and very informative.
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Unless they have recently updated that report, it is a fairly dated study, but still full of a lot of good information. If they have updated it, could you please provide a link?

Thank you.

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf
 
Today, 07:52 PM #29
44 AMP
Staff

Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 7,605
Quote:
What to rely on, while killing a grizzly
You rely on your skill, and your nerve. And afterwards, you rely on a good lawyer! Because the only way you are going to get off without going to court is if the grizz is chawing on you or a close personal friend.

you may eventually beat the charge, someone did just recently, but excpect to be in court for killing a griz.

As far as I know, there's still no hunting grizzly allowed in the continental US, and I don't think it is in Alsaka, either. Big browns, on the other hand are both dangerous, and game in Ak, I believe.
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Dear 44 AMP,

A bit of a correction if I could. Grizzlies are legal game in Alaska with proper license and proper guides if you are out of state. Brown bears are simply coastal grizzlies that eat more and grow larger than the inland grizzly but they are the same species.

Your points about getting a good lawyer are quite sanguine and you truly need to approach any bear attack where you shoot a grizzly as a venture into the Federal Criminal court system even if the state and locals decline any charges.

In such, the principles needed for a proper defense of a CCW incident are just about the same, only worse since the Feds will have no limitations on how much they can spend to prosecute your case. Don't make any statements period without a lawyers since it will be quite likely that you are going to be the main witness used against you should you speak out and make statements. Secure any evidence that will be needed in your defense and even include photo's of the area immediately after the fact. If you are injured, get photo's if you are physically capable. I am sure a good lawyer could add several other details.
 
Poachers have been getting fines in the $25,000-$50,000 range in my area and shooting a bear is considered poaching unless you can prove self defense. And proving self defense is hard to do with no witnesses other than yourself. Never shoot a bear more than a few yards away and then only when it is charging you. Remember that the feds will claim it was a bluff charge no matter what you say so don't say anything. Never talk to LEO's if you might be the subject of an investigation. It's really a bad idea to ever talk to them about anything. They WILL try to use what you say against you. I've seen that happen. I was the only witness to an armed robbery once although it took place in a crowded gas station lot. People don't pay attention to anything. Except I did that night. I spent Christmas Eve in a police station telling the LEO's I didn't know the guy who was working and we didn't have a plan to split the money. I really thought I was going to jail for a long time even though I did absolutely nothing wrong except stick up for the poor attendant so he wouldn't go to prison. Good deeds seldom go unpunished. I couldn't have lived with myself if I didn't do what I had to do though. But a whole lot of people would have let him fry just to avoid looking guilty and risking going with him to prison. What a world. So even if other people see what happened don't count on them to speak up. Chances are they won't.
 
Alaska444, thanks for the correction. I was going off what I recalled from school, admittedly, many decades ago. They taught us that Browns and Grizzlies were different species (subspecies?), and that Kodiaks were browns, who just grew bigger on the averarge due to their environment.

But I find that today, many things have changed. Modern science tells me that Pluto is no longer a planet, and rabbits are no longer rodents, so griz and browns being the same species is likely true as well. I defer to someone who lives closer to them than I do.:D
 
I would worry less about the legal problems and concentrate on staying alive.
If you have a charging brown bear after you ,nothing matters except survival.
If you had to shoot the bear to survive and didn't want to deal with the Law ,you could just leave it where it was shot and shut up. In other words cover your tracks and A$$. I a'm not advocateing shooting bears for fun or poaching. You have the God given right to defend yourself and survive if attacked .



I myself would report the incedent and deal with the legal system .
 
Okay. Word from the pros. Many programs I have seen and papers and books I have read have called for 2 different choices. The short barreled marlin lever is very popular in any of the calibers available, .444; 450, 45-70. If you've ever watched the alaska state troopers program, the marlin in stainless in carbine is often carried into bear situations against grizzly threat. Not a belted magnum.

Others choose 12 gauge compact pump, rifle sights, a basic 3-1/2 magnum riot gun, and it's loaded with SERIOUS slugs, not the ones you buy for $4 a box at walmart.

The 45-70 can be loaded with a 450 grain bullet up into ranges that put it barely within reach of the 458. I'd recommend a hard cast lead, maybe, or a low expansion solid copper.

Either a solidly built 45 45-70 bullet or a hard, heavy 12 gauge slug will rip a channel through the thing all the way through the vitals, presented head on.

My choice would be the marlin in 45-70. I would carry it with the bear loads, and keep it sighted in with them, with only a peep sight. For practice and fooling around purposes, that thing can be backloaded to very mildish rounds.

Every guide and every hunter has his own choice and opinion. You, however, are a guy who has a home to defend, and I don't know, maybe want a gun in the tent or boat when you are out? Which is going to fit this lifestyle better? a bolt action .458 winchester, or a short 870 or marlin guide gun?

The answer seems pretty simple to me.
 
I've thought about buying a Marlin .45-70 just for black bear issues around my house. It is an excellent choice especially in Guide Gun format IMO. But the price of one is a drawback to many who wish to have a gun they can beat around out in the wild without fear of losing a great deal of money. I have a NEF Pardner Pump that I carry on my ATV when I got thrashing around in the brush (lately for the main reason of keeping the bears chased off) because it cost me a whopping $200 yet it's a reliable and durable shotgun that is essentially a clone of an 870. With the mag extension I have on it, the thing holds 7 Brenneke K.O. slugs, which are heavy, cast chunks of lead designed to cut through bone. If I was dealing with brown bears I'd use heavier Black Magic slugs because they are more powerful.

My point is that some might not want to carry around a fine weapon like the Marlin .45-70 lever gun although I have thought of doing exactly that. Having a cheaper weapon that will do the job has prevented me from buying that Marlin Guide Gun called the 1895GBL.
 
Start with something that says .45, and then pick: 45/70, 450 Marlin, .458 win mag, or .458 Lott, etc. The Lott can shoot both the 458 Mag, and the .458 Lott ... very versatile! The lighter and handier the rifle is, the more you will carry it! Recoil won't even be part of the equation if you actually ARE looking at a charging Grizz or any other large predator that can and may eat you!

But, and there always is a but in life, being good with a .308 shooting proper bullets like North Folk, is better than missing with a .460 Weatherby! Shot placement is #1, but a big stick hurts more than a little one!:eek: Big bores are just as accurate as small bores ... but are you???;)
 
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