What to look for in a bear defense shotgun?
- Thread starter Rustle in the Bushes
- Start date
Only chance you have with heavy buckshot is if the bear is so close the shot is so close together that you might as well be using slugs-----which is what you should be using. I'm talking about big bears.
Interesting that a number of people have recommended buckshot who never shot a bear using the stuff. I think the Alaska State Troopers got it right if they're using 3" Black Magic Brennekes, as has been indicated.
Brennekes are hard. Fosters are soft. Which one do you want if your projectile must penetrate tough hide, heavy bone, and reach the vitals?
TheKlawMan
Moderator
If you have to shoot a bear
The Alaska Department of Fish & Game, which is obvioulsy against the use of firearms for bear protection, says if you use one make it a .300 Magnum rifle or a 12 gauge with rifled slugs.
The Alaska Department of Fish & Game, which is obvioulsy against the use of firearms for bear protection, says if you use one make it a .300 Magnum rifle or a 12 gauge with rifled slugs.
Yes, buckshot should work well if you can get it right next to the bear's ear. Just have the bear pose for a couple of seconds and put it right in the ear and pull the trigger. You could probably kill it with a .22 using that technique as well. Should be 100% fatal every time.
gehr, You go srtart your new forum right up...
You are the one who refuses to accept consensus on this issue
I was going to get the Thunder 5 for a hog self defense gun. But I figure by ther time a threat is realized (few pigs want to run you through when confronted), I wouldn't get it drawn and then it will be me trying to singe his hair with the muzzle blast. Since I would be in this compromised position, I would just get my buck 110 up in his boiler room and pump house...
But for a real bear (not a 250-300# fla blackie)... I will be engaged in a risk assessment as soon as I know the bear is headed my way. As I verify readiness of my weapon he might get a single "I DON'T THINK SO YOGI!!!" yell but then I go slinging slugs...
So few folks suggest buckshot and the ones who are giving advice with bear experience of more than sight-seer hunt guide status always suggest slug or big powerful rifle rounds...
I wouldn't even consider a tungsten buckshot at any price over the cheapest rifled slugs I am familiar with.
Using an old water tank as my current lead sponge, I find that even my soft slugs go in with a clean hole about the size of the slug and exit at more than an inch in diameter...
Only a hardened buck ball could possibly even penetrate the front side at 20 yards from a 2 3/4" shell...
Brent
You are the one who refuses to accept consensus on this issue
I was going to get the Thunder 5 for a hog self defense gun. But I figure by ther time a threat is realized (few pigs want to run you through when confronted), I wouldn't get it drawn and then it will be me trying to singe his hair with the muzzle blast. Since I would be in this compromised position, I would just get my buck 110 up in his boiler room and pump house...
But for a real bear (not a 250-300# fla blackie)... I will be engaged in a risk assessment as soon as I know the bear is headed my way. As I verify readiness of my weapon he might get a single "I DON'T THINK SO YOGI!!!" yell but then I go slinging slugs...
So few folks suggest buckshot and the ones who are giving advice with bear experience of more than sight-seer hunt guide status always suggest slug or big powerful rifle rounds...
I wouldn't even consider a tungsten buckshot at any price over the cheapest rifled slugs I am familiar with.
Using an old water tank as my current lead sponge, I find that even my soft slugs go in with a clean hole about the size of the slug and exit at more than an inch in diameter...
Only a hardened buck ball could possibly even penetrate the front side at 20 yards from a 2 3/4" shell...
Brent
Again, if I'm out in the tundra in big bear country , didn't properly prepare myself with slugs for my shotgun and the only thing I had was buckshot, sure I'd shoot a charging bear with it. Hell, for that matter, if all I had was a knife or stick,I'd have to defend myself with whatever I had.
Course, I'd have to wait till the charging bear was nearly on top of me using the buckshot, knife or stick.
But, if I knew I was going into big bear country and my choice of firearm was a shotgun for defense against big bear, I would properly prepare for my trip and the ammo for the shotgun would be hardcast slugs.
Gehrhard,
This thread is 6 pages long and from the onset you have promoted buckshot for big bear defense. But you have yet to recommend a reliable source that would back your claim.
You have been given credible sources that recommend slugs. I.E. Alaska Fish and Game, Alaska State Troopers and actual posts on this thread of members that actually live in regions with big brownies. These sources actually live where big bears roam and have ample experience and opportunity dealing with them.
Since your giving advice to anyone that clicks on and reads this thread... and the fact that this whole topic of slugs versus buckshot for defense against big bear is a life threatening situation:
1. Could you please explain what gives you the experience/knowledge or qualifies you to rebut what these credible sources that have years of dealing with big bears advise?
2.Also, Could you cite just one credible source that recommends your buckshot load for defense against big bears over a slug?
Too, you earlier posted of a post you said you found on another forum agreeing with you. Not hardly a reputable source. Just another ill-informed person that's more subject to be 'Mr. Browny's' supper.
The earlier 'post' you cited was from:
The Highroad(THR)...
...the thread was titled:
'Alaska Fishing Safety'....
...which is mostly about where and times to fish in Alaska (i.e. local fishing spots or remote, charter trips,etc.)
You really need to go back and read the whole, two page closed thread because as suspected, there are four other posts on that thread that recommend to use slugs in a shotgun for bear defense while out fishing.
One of which is from a native Alaskan that has been charged twice by browny's....
...and this is coming from your source!
This thread is 6 pages long and from the onset you have promoted buckshot for big bear defense. But you have yet to recommend a reliable source that would back your claim.
You have been given credible sources that recommend slugs. I.E. Alaska Fish and Game, Alaska State Troopers and actual posts on this thread of members that actually live in regions with big brownies. These sources actually live where big bears roam and have ample experience and opportunity dealing with them.
Since your giving advice to anyone that clicks on and reads this thread... and the fact that this whole topic of slugs versus buckshot for defense against big bear is a life threatening situation:
1. Could you please explain what gives you the experience/knowledge or qualifies you to rebut what these credible sources that have years of dealing with big bears advise?
2.Also, Could you cite just one credible source that recommends your buckshot load for defense against big bears over a slug?
Too, you earlier posted of a post you said you found on another forum agreeing with you. Not hardly a reputable source. Just another ill-informed person that's more subject to be 'Mr. Browny's' supper.
The earlier 'post' you cited was from:
The Highroad(THR)...
...the thread was titled:
'Alaska Fishing Safety'....
...which is mostly about where and times to fish in Alaska (i.e. local fishing spots or remote, charter trips,etc.)
You really need to go back and read the whole, two page closed thread because as suspected, there are four other posts on that thread that recommend to use slugs in a shotgun for bear defense while out fishing.
One of which is from a native Alaskan that has been charged twice by browny's....
...and this is coming from your source!
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...and you say you've been there but are still giving this bad advice. Did you not learn anything how you were there?
You are proof that cause you've been somewhere that big bears exist, doesn't make you an authority on them.
I've been to Cape Canaveral but that doesn't make me an astronaut.
Too, your right, I've never been to Alaska but have motorcycle toured/tent camped throughout many parts of the Rockies. There are a few Browns there but that does not make me an authority on big bears either. Just smart enough to take advice from those that deal with brownies on a regular basis.
On that note, when the Rocky rangers have to go in for a search or something like an animal relocation, what do you suppose they have in their shotguns?
Please tell us you're not working a booth offering guided brown bear hunts.
Again, just give one credible source that states buckshot is better then slugs for big bear defense.
You've been to Alaska, so surely, that shouldn't be too hard for you.
JUST ONE!
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Dear Gerhard, to say I am jealous is an understatement. The closest I get to Alaska now is Idaho which ain't too shabby itself. We lived on the top fo O'Malley road in Anchorage back when our back yard was filled with 10 miles of wilderness.
Not much more fire in the belly to argue this issue any more. I guess, take your sides and choose your weapons and the best to everyone should they ever need the protection.
God bless and enjoy Alaska. I certainly did when I grew up there for sure.
Take care,
Alaska
Not much more fire in the belly to argue this issue any more. I guess, take your sides and choose your weapons and the best to everyone should they ever need the protection.
God bless and enjoy Alaska. I certainly did when I grew up there for sure.
Take care,
Alaska
Though we have personal preferences specifically for defense that differ, Alaska, I have an open mind. I even compromise. Heck, no doubt I responsibly helped sell tons of Dixie Tri-Ball 12 ga. for bear defense across the state whose name you've adopted.
Three tight-grouping (think Federal Flite-Control) hard-cast .60 balls, each weighing 315 grains, travelling at 1,100 FPS for a total 2,539 ME. Even a 437 grain Foster slug at 1,560 FPS only has 2,361 foot pounds. And these have 9% more energy even than the Winchester 3" Mag Copper-plated 000 Buckshot rounds.
Now everyone should be happy, except the Kodiaks.
Three tight-grouping (think Federal Flite-Control) hard-cast .60 balls, each weighing 315 grains, travelling at 1,100 FPS for a total 2,539 ME. Even a 437 grain Foster slug at 1,560 FPS only has 2,361 foot pounds. And these have 9% more energy even than the Winchester 3" Mag Copper-plated 000 Buckshot rounds.
Now everyone should be happy, except the Kodiaks.
But I think the problem with the tri-ball and the ME numbers is that their energy will drop off faster at a given distance than a single slug of weight equal toi the 3 balls due to the fact that each ball is lighter.
Also, are these 3ball thingys good and accurate and lethal to a grizz at the 80 yards I hope I have to work with?
Brent
Also, are these 3ball thingys good and accurate and lethal to a grizz at the 80 yards I hope I have to work with?
Brent
Gehrhard said:
So now you actually suggest a tight group and near full sized slug-weight rounds? Sounds like you are all but converted.
Anyway, it is still a bad comparison. First off, energy isn't additive so you are wasting your breath on that point. Second, the sectional density of your 3 individual shots is considerably worse than the Foster slugs sectional density so that means inferior penetration. Third, that Dixie is a 3" shell, and so you should compare it to another 3" shell, not to a 2 3/4". A few examples (from most expensive to least, including Tri-ball):
Lightfield Commander IDS - 600 grains at 1800fps - 3346 ft/lbs.($15 for 5).
Dixie IXL-DGS (Slug) - 870 grains at 1200fps - 2782 ft/lbs ($12.50 for 5).
Dixie Tri-ball - 3x325 grains at 1050fps - 2388ft/lbs ($12 for 5)
Brenneke Black Magic - 600 grains at 1502fps - 3014ft/lbs ($11 for 5).
Remington Slugger - 473 grains at 1760 fps for 3006 ft/lbs.($6 for 5).
Federal Power-Shock - 546 grains at 1600 fps for 3109 ft/lbs.($5 for 5).
Also, you may have noticed I have different and lower numbers for the tri-ball. That is because you used the wrong source for your numbers. Check their entire website carefully, particularly the ordering form and the products section which agree and specify the difference between 3" and 3.5", and not the ballistics page, which doesn't specify which size it is referring to (and seems to actually be an average of the two).
As hogdogs and arentol stated, you can't combine the ME of three projectiles that are much smaller then say a single much larger projectile of equal ft/lbs. and expect to get the same bone crushing, penetrating results between the two.
Using Gehrhards figures of the ...
Aaaah....never mind....like Alaska444...I give up.
But , am still waiting on 'Just One' credible source from Gehrhard that recommends using anything but slugs when it comes to shotguns against big bear for defense.
Until that comes, I'm calling BS on all of Gehrhards advice and vast experience's in Alaska or anywhere else that harbors big bear.
Using Gehrhards figures of the ...
Aaaah....never mind....like Alaska444...I give up.
But , am still waiting on 'Just One' credible source from Gehrhard that recommends using anything but slugs when it comes to shotguns against big bear for defense.
Until that comes, I'm calling BS on all of Gehrhards advice and vast experience's in Alaska or anywhere else that harbors big bear.