What to look for in a bear defense shotgun?

My interest in a shotgun with hard, magnum, 000 buckshot for bear is for all the same basic features that shotguns generally offer and the benefits that result. This is a shotgun page so I presume(d) I don't have to iterate them.

At this point just let people choose, bruins behave, and Darwin judge.
 
Arentol. You may want to read that Hawk's article over and note things he talks about such as size and weight of shotguns as compared to rifles, accuracy, the effect of accuracy on penetration, and the availability of ammunition. That an Alaskan trooper had a sg doesn't mean a lot unless he had the opportunity to take a rifle but chose to go with an SG. My personal choice for bear defense would be a M-60 machine gun mounted in the door of a Huey hovering at 200 feet.

I also wondered what point Hawks was making about the bulltet passing thruough the bear's shoulder. I think it was that it pentrated well, even if the particular shot could have been pladed better so as to allow it to penetrate and take out vital organs.
 
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Today, 08:16 AM #101
Gehrhard
Senior Member

Join Date: July 15, 2009
Location: East of the Missississippippi
Posts: 464
My interest in a shotgun with hard, magnum, 000 buckshot for bear is for all the same basic features that shotguns generally offer and the benefits that result. This is a shotgun page so I presume(d) I don't have to iterate them.

At this point just let people choose, bruins behave, and Darwin judge.
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Sorry, not sure where to find that information. Could you elaborat for my benefit why I should consider buckshot instead of slugs for bear defense.

Thank you.
 
Sorry, not sure where to find that information. Could you elaborat for my benefit why I should consider buckshot instead of slugs for bear defense.

Thank you.
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I don't think you are going to get any further information from him, it was all gobbledy gook. It seems the young man feels that none of us can hit a bear with a slug so we must use buckshot. After all if it is good on a 150 pound deer armed with those deadly antlers at 30 yards or a 180 pound boogerman at 3 yards then buckshot should be devastating on a 500+ pound Grizzly who doesn't have any defensive weapons. No antlers, no body armor, no gun, no knife, poor bear doesn't stand a chance. :rolleyes:
 
Today, 10:15 AM #105
Old Grump
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Join Date: April 9, 2009
Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in a little hut in the woods
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Sorry, not sure where to find that information. Could you elaborat for my benefit why I should consider buckshot instead of slugs for bear defense.

Thank you.
I don't think you are going to get any further information from him, it was all gobbledy gook. It seems the young man feels that none of us can hit a bear with a slug so we must use buckshot. After all if it is good on a 150 pound deer armed with those deadly antlers at 30 yards or a 180 pound boogerman at 3 yards then buckshot should be devastating on a 500+ pound Grizzly who doesn't have any defensive weapons. No antlers, no body armor, no gun, no knife, poor bear doesn't stand a chance.
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+1 Old Grump. Yes, I suspect that being able to hit a charging bear with the associated adrenalin dump, tunnel vision, tremors and the speed of these critters must make connecting a difficult chore. Yet, it seems every year we do have successful defense with large slugs hitting the target. Buck shot from everything I have read just won't get the penetration and it spreads rapidly past 30 yards.

On the other hand, who can argue with a Brenneke slugs or a 540 garrett Hammerhead in 45-70 putting these beasts down for the count. Buckshot in some FBI ballistic test doesn't even penetrate car doors at certain distances. Folks can go with the buckshot if they wish, I will just keep a big chunk of lead handy.
 
I'm with Alaska444. Up here the Troopers put the aggressive bears down with the Brenneke Black Magic 3" rounds (at least when they are in town). It works and a lot of people swear by them.
 
Up here the troopers put the aggressive bears down with the Brenneke Black Magic 3" rounds...It works and a lot of people swear by them
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+1

...and again, where are you from ISK?...Alaska?

....You have some big bears up there don't you.

All this silly talk and rambling about the best big bear defense, super great 00 or 000, buffered buck in Winchester or any other brand of ammo makeup, whether it be plated copper, tungsten , carbide or any other form of plated buckshot for brown bear defense is just simply foolish.

Again, if my guide were carrying buckshot for his ' big bear defense' shotgun, I would know he didn't have a clue what he was doing.



,
 
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horse....dead?

At the risk of beating a dead horse......and no criticism intended of the poster, just an example of how an appeal to authority is not always a proof...

I recall reading a gunmag author's nationally known bear hunt guide, understand they were hunting black bear, was carrying a .22 Mag rifle. The author was using a .357 revolver with soft bullets. The guide, who was up a tree, did help stop the charging bear for him after the author shot it in the head without result...
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I have no doubt that the story is as summarized. Two firearms on a bear hunt....a .22 magnum and a .357. A head shot with the .357 didn't work. The bear charged. Not sure what happened then....the .22 Magnum helped to stop the charging bear. What, I wonder, does that mean exactly?
Despite the fact that the guide is nationally known, one has to deal with the fact that a .22 magnum is not normally a back up weapon on a bear hunt, especially if the main weapon, a .357 in this case, is already on the light side.
Just because someone well known did it, doesn't mean it's a good idea.
Pete

PS - A btw.....a 40 grain .22 mag bullet at 1900 fps has more muzzle energy (320 ftlbs) than a .36 buckshot pellet at 1225 (236 ftlbs). The pellet, however, has a larger KO factor (4) than the .22 (2). A 12 ga. slug gets a 53.
But then....how accurate are KO factors?
 
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Furbearing Insults

I know, buckshot is really only useful for large puppies.

And 10 hard .36 caliber pellets' KO? What's the value of most hitting your target simultaneously vs. a miss with a slug? Too late -- no aimed follow-up shot allowed. Reactive defense is not the same as proactive offense -- in the former the bear chooses the time and place of the action and in the latter it is you. You remind me of my all-talk brother-in-law who, after I went to put a deposit on a 7-1/2" .41 Magnum Ruger Redhawk to go bear hunting with him (with handguns was the only way I would), reneged and asked if I was crazy.

By the way, the police going in to hunt a bear in town? Makes some sense using a slug even over a rifle due to range -- but that's not defense. I know you need a .338 Win Mag for a wild, wild, fawn but, sorry, many seem to sell big buckshot magnum shotgun shells short. Hunting? Yeah, I'd prefer my .30-06 Ackley Improved too. Around camp and cabin where brown bear may roam? A .44 Mag. revolver and a Mossberg 500 loaded with 3" Magnum Winchester Supreme Copper-Plated 000 Buckshot.

No worries.
 
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I believe that gives you about 1250 fps muzzle velocity if I have the correct 3 inch winchester Buckshot you are referring to. Might work on a small black bear, but not the sort of thing I would feel comfortable with large grizzly. If I went with a 12 ga, it would be slugs all the way for bear defense. Higher velocity, better penetration, more KO, more lead down range.

The last time I checked, you still have aim a shotgun with buckshot to have an effective hit, just like with slugs. Buckshot simply lacks the penetration or power to be a serious big bear defense option of any reliability especially past 30 yards where many experts advise as the minimum distance to start shooting at a charging bear.
 
Bear Defense

There's only one way to stop a charging bear: Take his credit card away!

Seriously, I want too much, rather than enough, as another poster said, so give me slugs.
 
Not that I know much of anything about charging bears or the Alaskan Wilderness, but two cartridges I have really taken a liking to and will one day own are the Marlin 1895 SBL in 45-70 govt, and for a pistol the Ruger 454 Cassul with a 7.5" barrel. I have heard from more than one person that either of these two guns are more than enough to take down just about anything in North America. Again, not claiming to be an expert on anything, this is just what older, wiser guys have told me. Please let me know what you guys think!
 
THe 45-70 and the .454 both with proper loads will handle just about anything in NA woods. Both pack a wallup at both ends with high TKO values and recoil. The loads throw a large chunck of lead down field in the same manner as a large chunck of lead from a 12 ga shotgun slug. That gives deep penetration and the ability to smash through bone, heavy fur and thick tissues to reach the vitals. When it comes to bears, that is where the money is for stopping power.

My combination is the .444 and the .44 magnum SRH 7.5 inch for my woods protection. What I give up in top end power, I save on my own arm from reduced recoil. Nevertheless, if you can handle the recoil, yes, the 45-70 and .454 combination with proper loads is a great way to go. Just make sure you take enough ammo in case you run into a pack of wolves on the way.
 
You have a good firearm.....I would follow the advice of the second post, it was dead on and slugs are the way to go. Please don't shot the bear at 100 feet or more :).
 
Good to know thank you for the responses! Unfortunately I don't own them yet but they're on my list for sure! Chances are slim that I would need them where I currently live, but would like to make it up to Alaska for a fishing trip sometime. I have been told that my 357 mag and 45ACP are plenty for a bear encounter in Washington state, this coming from a former Alaskan guide. Not looking to test the theory by any means, just refer back to my screen name!
 
Now, I do Alaska, and may be ridiculed for relying on plated, buffered, 3" Magnum 000 Buckshot (that will go through a car door out to 30 or 40 yards and gelatin - yeah, I know - almost as far as a 1 oz. Foster at short ranges) for close encounters of the bruin kind, but...

Although your handgun choices are better than nothing I would say they are a little anemic. NOW the balance tips. Power is important and bullet choice critical.

"I don't recommend carrying a 357 in bear country, but the ballistics from this guy are enough to give you a fighting chance. Out of a 6" barrel your pushing 800 Ft. Lbs. This is fabulous. Out of my 3" SmIth, this round pushes 1400 FPS. The old timers say that for protection from bear you need a 200 grain slug traveling at least 900 FPS. The old 45 colt with 260 grains at 960 FPS was good enough to get the job done. This round is even better."

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

But a shotgun with hard slugs is looking better...

;)
 
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But a shotgun with hard slugs is looking better...
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I would hope you do relook at the issue. I will try to find the police shotgun penetration tests done quite a while back and available in video format, but they looked at door penetration for police use and buckshot failed at times to penetrate even one door. Slugs always penetrated two doors. I will try to find the video I posted once on TFL over a year ago I believe on this same issue.
 
I found the video I was looking for testing 12 ga buckshot vs slugs for police use. Note that the buckshot failed penetrate the door at all. Slugs penetrated not only the first door, but the opposite side door as well. Not a real life bear penetration test, but where we going to find that except in the wild and doubt it would be video taped in a bear charge situation very often.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWRToW2d1XU

I believe that this shows why buckshot is just not the way to go with bear defense on both penetration and spread at 35 yards with 00 buck shot.

If you can handle the recoil, get a Garrett Hammerhead in 45-70 540 gr and all it has to do is hit center of mass to be stopping shot.
 
Interesting. I learned to pay attention and not to use 2-3/4" regular lead, unbuffered, 00 Buckshot against a '70 Chevy Impala door. Luckily that isn't what I was referencing.

Plated, buffered, 3" Magnum 000 buckshot would go thru it easily though. And at the optimal opperating range of a shotgun. I've read police tests of up to 50 and 60 yards even.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gaugeFBITest3.html

Note: none of this was meant to imply that bears of any color usually take cover behind car doors.
 
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