What to look for in a bear defense shotgun?
- Thread starter Rustle in the Bushes
- Start date
Willie Lowman
New member
It's not going to happen, Shortwave. I have five dollars that says he can't and won't come up with that source.
Back in the day, my Grandfather liked to screw around where those kind of bears live. He kept a .308 Norma Mag with him. I don't know all the cute numbers for a 180 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of nearly 3000 fps but I bet it compares to the slugs pretty well.
Back in the day, my Grandfather liked to screw around where those kind of bears live. He kept a .308 Norma Mag with him. I don't know all the cute numbers for a 180 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of nearly 3000 fps but I bet it compares to the slugs pretty well.
The one time I had to fire directly on a bear was a very large male black. I sent a shot of 3" plated 00 into a very well placed what I thought was a kill shot at ten yards. The bear ran off. It was found a week later, uninjured, when it had killed a neighbors goats and the DOW had to put it down and found signs of where others had used everything from birdshot to buckshot on the old bear. Needless to say I use slugs now. I proved to myself that even a very high quality buckshot placed in a very good spot does little more than annoy the bear. After all the time to guy at the local hunting shop spent convincing me that this was THE load for bear defense it was nearly ineffective. I went from feeling like i could take on anything head on with my 870 to feeling like i was holding a useless chunk of steel in an instant. I honestly think the noise of the gun is probably what scared the bear off more than anything. No way would I rely on buckshot to stop a grizzly.
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Ahhhh, you could have saved the goat with the right load in the first place.
Glad you survived that encounter. Good thing it decided to take off instead of just making it more angry and pressing forward. Grizzly might not react the same way.
In any case, great real life example. Hard to find much of any examples of buck shot and bear, successful or unsuccessful. At ten yards, if it was going to be effective, you don't have to worry about spread at that point. Buck shot simply lacks the energy to penetrate or the sectional density. Just not a good choice.
Glad you survived that encounter. Good thing it decided to take off instead of just making it more angry and pressing forward. Grizzly might not react the same way.
In any case, great real life example. Hard to find much of any examples of buck shot and bear, successful or unsuccessful. At ten yards, if it was going to be effective, you don't have to worry about spread at that point. Buck shot simply lacks the energy to penetrate or the sectional density. Just not a good choice.
HALLAUSTIN
New member
I hate when I come here for information and SUPPORTED opinions and then it turns to an argument where both sides think they are right. So I'ma just throw this one out there... Why don't we just trust Alaska444, seeing as he grew up there. Anyone else raised in Alaska, anyone actually charged by yogi? If you dont have real experience with the topic then please agree to disagree and let the OP form his opinion from factual information.
Sorry for the rant but this upsets me.
Sorry for the rant but this upsets me.
Dear Hall, Austen,
Let me be clear, I have never hunted bear, shot bear or had any bear encounters except when I was three years old and a black bear came and pawed our umbrella tent causing my Dad to wake and yell to chase it away. I still remember waking suddenly and seeing the profile of a black bear silhouetted against our tent from the ever present sun at 2-3 am in Fairbanks Alaska. I would probably credit that experience with making me more paranoid of bears than the average person.
I do spend quite a bit of time in Idaho now where once again, we have grizzly bear but mainly black bear especially down on the St Joe River where we like to go to the Huckleberry campground. I read a lot and pay attention to the many documented bear defense stories, just one of my hobbies.
Yes, I did grow up in Alaska to the age of 10, but that hardly makes me an expert because of my own experience. My oldest brother came down with diabetes when we were up in Nome and my parents decided to move back to the lower 48 for health care purposes.
Thank you for the vote of confidence, but it is not all by personal experience on what I state. As much as I would love to take credit for knowing it all in person, although I have been out and about in the woods since I was a little kid, I hope to never see a grizzly up front and personal where I need to use my ever present guns for my own defense, but I am prepared nevertheless.
Two of my childhood friends that I remember have been mauled by grizzly bears. Wes Perkins up in Nome AK is a kid I am pretty sure that we used to go and see from time to time that had a Peregrine Falcon in a cage outside their home if my fading memory serves me well. My older brothers couldn't recall, but I am pretty sure it is the same person.
http://www.adn.com/2011/05/16/1865935/grizzly-mauling-victim-hospitalized.html
The second is Mike Moerlein of Anchorage who was mauled as a 14 yo kid and actually fought off the grizzly with a walking stick saving his friends life. Mike and his family lived at the top of O'Malley Road and we were just a few houses below them. Mrs. Moerlein is the first person to make me eat salad when I went to eat there one time with one of her kids. So if that adds to personal experience, perhaps, more likely it just made me more paranoid than I already was. His encounter is recorded here by Larry Kanuit.
http://books.google.com/books?id=HH...ALch7WRDQ&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
On the other hand, I can read and do read and study this issue extensively on what works and what doesn't work. Woods defense is the main reason I have the guns that I have today. If it wasn't for my own medical condition, I would take the 45-70 with Garrett Hammerheads 540 gr as my preferred woods defense. That is the choice of many in Alaska as a close quarters bear stopper and some use them in short range bear hunts as well.
So, thank you again for the vote of confidence, but I can't credit my experience as the main reason for my opinions. Once again, I still remember that bear encounter at the age of three which I believe has skewed my views of bears and made me quite paranoid of those critters. Kids sometimes see the boogerman up close, but at three, it wasn't a boogerman I saw, but a black bear. That image has stayed with me my entire life. And now, knowing two people I knew as kids having both survived a grizzly bear attack, it brings home to me just how personal this issue is. Yes, the statistics say that a bear attack is much less likely than being hit by lightening, but how many folks know two of their friends struck by lightening?
In any case, because of penetration and TKO power, shucks, I just don't see the role for buck shot other folks seem to see and getting as close to the Garrett Hammerhead type of power seems the best way to go. Just my own internet expert opinion.
Let me be clear, I have never hunted bear, shot bear or had any bear encounters except when I was three years old and a black bear came and pawed our umbrella tent causing my Dad to wake and yell to chase it away. I still remember waking suddenly and seeing the profile of a black bear silhouetted against our tent from the ever present sun at 2-3 am in Fairbanks Alaska. I would probably credit that experience with making me more paranoid of bears than the average person.
I do spend quite a bit of time in Idaho now where once again, we have grizzly bear but mainly black bear especially down on the St Joe River where we like to go to the Huckleberry campground. I read a lot and pay attention to the many documented bear defense stories, just one of my hobbies.
Yes, I did grow up in Alaska to the age of 10, but that hardly makes me an expert because of my own experience. My oldest brother came down with diabetes when we were up in Nome and my parents decided to move back to the lower 48 for health care purposes.
Thank you for the vote of confidence, but it is not all by personal experience on what I state. As much as I would love to take credit for knowing it all in person, although I have been out and about in the woods since I was a little kid, I hope to never see a grizzly up front and personal where I need to use my ever present guns for my own defense, but I am prepared nevertheless.
Two of my childhood friends that I remember have been mauled by grizzly bears. Wes Perkins up in Nome AK is a kid I am pretty sure that we used to go and see from time to time that had a Peregrine Falcon in a cage outside their home if my fading memory serves me well. My older brothers couldn't recall, but I am pretty sure it is the same person.
http://www.adn.com/2011/05/16/1865935/grizzly-mauling-victim-hospitalized.html
The second is Mike Moerlein of Anchorage who was mauled as a 14 yo kid and actually fought off the grizzly with a walking stick saving his friends life. Mike and his family lived at the top of O'Malley Road and we were just a few houses below them. Mrs. Moerlein is the first person to make me eat salad when I went to eat there one time with one of her kids. So if that adds to personal experience, perhaps, more likely it just made me more paranoid than I already was. His encounter is recorded here by Larry Kanuit.
http://books.google.com/books?id=HH...ALch7WRDQ&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
On the other hand, I can read and do read and study this issue extensively on what works and what doesn't work. Woods defense is the main reason I have the guns that I have today. If it wasn't for my own medical condition, I would take the 45-70 with Garrett Hammerheads 540 gr as my preferred woods defense. That is the choice of many in Alaska as a close quarters bear stopper and some use them in short range bear hunts as well.
So, thank you again for the vote of confidence, but I can't credit my experience as the main reason for my opinions. Once again, I still remember that bear encounter at the age of three which I believe has skewed my views of bears and made me quite paranoid of those critters. Kids sometimes see the boogerman up close, but at three, it wasn't a boogerman I saw, but a black bear. That image has stayed with me my entire life. And now, knowing two people I knew as kids having both survived a grizzly bear attack, it brings home to me just how personal this issue is. Yes, the statistics say that a bear attack is much less likely than being hit by lightening, but how many folks know two of their friends struck by lightening?
In any case, because of penetration and TKO power, shucks, I just don't see the role for buck shot other folks seem to see and getting as close to the Garrett Hammerhead type of power seems the best way to go. Just my own internet expert opinion.
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I agree with Alaska in that my personal experiences have made me much more paranoid than most. The summer before the incident I spoke of I was working two 16 hour night shifts back to back so instead of driving all the way home I decided to spend the night at my parents place as they were out of town and grateful enough to let me crash there. I had made the stupid mistake of not locking the sliding glass door before I went to bed. I was later woken up from a call from the neighbors, knowing I was watching the house, informing me that I needed to get to the house as there was a bear that was inside of it . . I told them I WAS at the house, sleeping inside! The only thing I had was a marlin .22 in the closet. So I grabbed it, loaded up, and headed out to investigate. When I got to the kitchen there was a black bear, only around 200 lbs or so, sitting in the kitchen eating most of the food. He had torn open cupboards and the fridge. When I walked in the room he just sat there and looked at me. The angle I was at I was able to fire off shots out the open door across the room hoping that it would scare him off. I fired off 3 shots and he didnt even blink. So I remembered watching on a wildlife show that if you act aggressive towards a bear that's in your 'territory' he wont want to come back. So I started yelling and walking towards him. He casually got up and walked away to which I got cocky and started to pursue him harder. Luckily it was a younger bear and wasn't aggressive at all. BTW I called the sheriff and animal control when I was in the room to report that there was a bear currently IN MY HOUSE before I went out to check it out. They didnt arrive till 15 minutes AFTER the bear ran off. Go figure. One month later I had a different bear try to break into my personal home twice while I was there and once while my wife and kid were there home alone. I was also once on a call, when I worked at the fire department, where I had a big bear try to break into my rescue truck for whatever reason. We've had bears visit our house for the past four summers consistently. The black bear population here in Colorado is bad. They are extremely over populated due to the lack of an apex predator, like wolves and grizzlies. Last summer we finally all of a sudden stopped seeing bears altogether on our street. We later found out that this was due to the fact that a huge lion had moved into the neighborhood. He was relocated and then just like that the bears came back. So to make my long stories short I am very paranoid of bears. Thats why I keep my .357 loaded with buffalo boar and my shotgun loaded with 3" slugs. Not only that but I also keep my mosin with 200 gr soft points in the sling nearby so no matter where you are in the house you can get to a bear gun as well as having my bear dog and german shepard. I hope I never have to shoot at another bear again but I dont want to be left without protection again. I would never shoot a bear that wasn't in my house unless I had to, even in my house I didn't shoot him I would rather just scare him off but the bear I had to shoot was on my back porch between me and my kid and dog and refused to leave with all the shouting and warning shots I gave so I did what I thought I had to. I have never been charged by a bear personally. I have been charged by an angry muley buck but that's another story!
Sounds like you have good reason to be "paranoid." Me, I'm just paranoid with no recent stories like yours.
I lived in CO near Denver in the early 1990's and we would run around the woods all the time and never thought about bears in those days. I suspect like everywhere else that the bear population is increasing. What we did worry about in those days were the mountain lion attacks which proved deadly in almost every case. Many more bear attacks but it seems that when a mountain lion attacks, you don't survive unless you have some way to fight them off and hopefully have a second person to assist. Those critters give me the biggest creeps since you won't know that they are anywhere near you until they are on top of you.
In the woods, I have my .357 SP101 with Buffalo Bore 180 gr hardcast which is my EDC in my right front pocket and I either have my .444 over my shoulder or my .44 Magnum Super Redhawk in bandolier cross carry loaded with the Buffalo Bore +P+ 340 gr which approaches .454 Casull power. I throw as big a chunk of lead as I can get in their direction and I hope I never have to use these defenses, but I do have them there and ready.
Glad you survived the encounters you noted and hope that is the end of your list.
I lived in CO near Denver in the early 1990's and we would run around the woods all the time and never thought about bears in those days. I suspect like everywhere else that the bear population is increasing. What we did worry about in those days were the mountain lion attacks which proved deadly in almost every case. Many more bear attacks but it seems that when a mountain lion attacks, you don't survive unless you have some way to fight them off and hopefully have a second person to assist. Those critters give me the biggest creeps since you won't know that they are anywhere near you until they are on top of you.
In the woods, I have my .357 SP101 with Buffalo Bore 180 gr hardcast which is my EDC in my right front pocket and I either have my .444 over my shoulder or my .44 Magnum Super Redhawk in bandolier cross carry loaded with the Buffalo Bore +P+ 340 gr which approaches .454 Casull power. I throw as big a chunk of lead as I can get in their direction and I hope I never have to use these defenses, but I do have them there and ready.
Glad you survived the encounters you noted and hope that is the end of your list.
I think we have chased the tail long enuff... So we have a vast majority who are either of firsthand experience or have first hand knowledge of what loads work or do severe damage to stop a big bruin gleaned from years of trial and error and success on various other animals...
These folks are of the consensus that a a large solo high energy blob of harder than soft lead is the best choice.
Most of these same folks, me included, wouldn't think twice about deploying Buckshot if it were the only option available...
Then there are some who refuse to accept the fact
Brent
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Note I've never said I haven't used hardened, buffered, 000 Buckshot from a 3" Mag. on bear. Black and brown. Polar Bear either come to think of it.
I will say my carry handgun in AK is a light .44 Mag with lower recoil Buffalo Bore 255 gr. hardcast Keith SWC's.
I will also say I would not use a soft 12 ga. slug, especially on brown bear, if I could avoid it (or any slug for that matter) unless I was VERY sure of my (maybe one, single) shot. Biggest, plentiful, hard and fast (don't get excited) buckshot at shotgun ranges? Yuppers.
I will say my carry handgun in AK is a light .44 Mag with lower recoil Buffalo Bore 255 gr. hardcast Keith SWC's.
I will also say I would not use a soft 12 ga. slug, especially on brown bear, if I could avoid it (or any slug for that matter) unless I was VERY sure of my (maybe one, single) shot. Biggest, plentiful, hard and fast (don't get excited) buckshot at shotgun ranges? Yuppers.
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Gehrhard
No since in getting excited!
Your extreme lacking of credibility on this issue is most obvious but yet you still insist on recommending buckshot on big bears for SD. Which, if someone doesn't read this whole thread and takes your knee jerk advice, could potentially cost them their life.
IMO, that should not be taken lightly and I cannot just simply 'agree to disagree' with you as HAL,AUSTIN suggests.
You are the only one promoting the use of buckshot against big bear and since you cannot provide any credible sources for your claims, you use buckshot for big bear (good luck with that) and everyone else should use what the reliable sources use... slugs.
With that...I agree with hogdogs . You can give some people(in this case,one person...Gehrhard) factual info and they will argue even though they cannot back up their point of view....
...sooo, I'm done with this one...
...unless of course... again, you Gehrhard, can ever come up with that 'one reliable source'.
Gerh... You are treading on thin ice to accuse so many members of "tacticool" tendencies...
First and foremost, many in this thread who profess the slug are the same ones who profess the need for traditional guns rather than the farkle encrusted tacticool get-ups of today...
You are a narrow minded feller stuck in only what you feel comfortable regarding shotguns, shotgun loads and deployment of them...
In fact you nearly called me "wrong" "inaccurate" or a baldfaced liar when I professed an ability to aim with a bead equipped shotgun...
When even using 7 1/2 loads on squirrels, I am 100% kill ratio with one shot on more than the last 50 shotgunned squirrels...
And yes, I am able to point shoot a kill when called upon... At closer range than many with no "PULL" called and a second or less to set up the shot... Still a "One Shot One Kill" sort...
Your hand has been called... Show 'em or Fold 'em...
And yes... this is proof I can point shoot with little pre-warning and still put the payload on target... even with very limited time and distance restraints...
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y267/hogdogs/032311174609.jpg
Brent
First and foremost, many in this thread who profess the slug are the same ones who profess the need for traditional guns rather than the farkle encrusted tacticool get-ups of today...
You are a narrow minded feller stuck in only what you feel comfortable regarding shotguns, shotgun loads and deployment of them...
In fact you nearly called me "wrong" "inaccurate" or a baldfaced liar when I professed an ability to aim with a bead equipped shotgun...
When even using 7 1/2 loads on squirrels, I am 100% kill ratio with one shot on more than the last 50 shotgunned squirrels...
And yes, I am able to point shoot a kill when called upon... At closer range than many with no "PULL" called and a second or less to set up the shot... Still a "One Shot One Kill" sort...
Your hand has been called... Show 'em or Fold 'em...
And yes... this is proof I can point shoot with little pre-warning and still put the payload on target... even with very limited time and distance restraints...
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y267/hogdogs/032311174609.jpg
Brent
I've been going to Coopers Landing, Alaska every summer to fish and hike. Every guide I've ever been out with carry's a 12 gauge loaded with slugs or a 45-70. IMO, any pistol is for backup only. Black bear is one thing, a coastal brown bear is quite another. Many coastal browns depending on season, age and geographical location in Alaska often weight 1500lbs, on their hind legs are over 10 feet tall, and can run a short sprint up to 35MPH+. I believe the world record coastal brown topped out at nearly 2500lbs. When I go hiking up there I carry a Benelli Super 90 with slugs, a Glock 20 with a KKM barrel shooting my hardcast handloads, and Counter Assault Bear Spray. Even with these defensive options, the odds are great you'll never have the time to deploy a weapon in a bear confrontation. This is why situational awareness, hiking in groups of 4 or more, and wearing a bell bracelets as a noisemaker is a good idea. The theory being that if a bear can hear you coming and aren't spooked, a bear won't be interested in humans. The reality is however that in Alaska, more humans are killed by moose.
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