What the heck
- Thread starter Ozzieman
- Start date
mapsjanhere
New member
Dakota, but for the fact that it was the Imperial army; there was a Reichswehr and a Wehrmacht before the Bundeswehr came into being in 1956
Scorch you got another one.
206 Mondragón M1908 rifle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragón_rifle
The Mondragón rifle may refer to three rifle designs developed by Mexican artillery officer general Manuel Mondragón. The initial designs were straight-pull bolt-action rifles (M1893 and M1894); those rifles served as a basis for developing Mexico's first self-loading rifle, the M1908, which was also one of the first such designs to see combat use.
Straight-pull bolt-action rifles[edit]
In 1891 Mondragón began working on a rifle design. During his stay in Belgium he filed a patent application for which he had received a grant on March 23, 1892 (No. 98,947). During the same year, on April 20, Mondragón received also a grant from the French Patent Office (No. 221,035). In the following year, on February 8, he also filed an application in the United States Patent Office (No. 461, 476) and received a grant (No. 557,079) on March 24, 1896.[2] The rifle, referred to as M1893, was of a straight-pull bolt action design, chambered for 6.5x48mm cartridge (also developed by Mondragón), with a fixed magazine fed with 8-round en-bloc clips.[3] The rifle had three settings:[4] "A" - automatic, "L" - safe and "R" - rapid. The "automatic" fire setting allowed the rifle to fire a cartridge each time the bolt was manually cycled to closed position,[2] in similar fashion to Winchester M1897 pump action shotgun. The rifle could be equipped with a knife bayonet. The bayonet measured 41 cm and weighed 575 g, the blade was 28 cm long.[5] At the time Mexico had no manufacturers capable of producing such a complex design to the required tolerances, Mondragon with the backing of Diaz entrusted the Swiss Industrial Company (Schweizerische Industrie Gesellschaft) of Neuhausen, Switzerland with the production of the rifles. SIG received the first order in 1893, for 50 rifles, and another one in 1894, this time for 200 rifles. The rifles from the second order were chambered for 5.2x68mm round and referred to as M1894 (to differentiate them from the ones chambered for the 6.5mm cartridge). The 5.2mm cartridge was developed by Swiss colonel Eduard Rubin.[6]
Self-loading rifle[edit]
Mondragón continued his work, and on August 8, 1904 he filed a patent application (No. 219,989) for the new rifle, this time of a self-loading design. He received the patent grant (No. 853,715) on May 14, 1907.[7]
The design was adopted by the Mexican Army in 1908 as Fusil Porfirio Diaz Sistema Mondragón Modelo 1908. The same year, the Mexican government contracted with SIG for the production of 4,000, M1908 rifles, chambered for the 7×57mm Mauser Mexican service cartridge. Due to the political instability of Mexico at that time (Mexican Revolution), by 1910 only 400 of the ordered rifles had been delivered by SIG. The rifle's inability to cope with ammunition of poor quality, and the high unit cost of 160 SFr per rifle, led to the cancellation of the order by the Mexican government.
Mondragón Modelo 1908 was a gas-operated rifle with a rotating bolt, and a cylinder and piston arrangement. This design is now common, but was unusual at the time. The bolt was locked by lugs in helical grooves in the receiver. There was a switch, located on the charging handle, which would disengage the bolt from the gas system, changing the firearm into a straight-pull, bolt action, rifle. The rifle had a non-detachable box magazine and was filled by two, five round, stripper clips. The Mondragón Modelo 1908 rifles were fitted with a bipod. In addition to the knife bayonet introduced with the previous rifles, Mondragón designed a spade bayonet for use with the Modelo 1908,[8] for which he filed a patent application (No. 631,283) on June 6, 1911.[9]
Use during World War I[edit]
In 1914 the German Empire bought the remainder of the rifles produced by SIG[1] that had not been sent to Mexico, which could have been as high as 3,600 rifles (assuming that SIG had finished their side of the deal before the cancellation). Germans tried to modify the rifles for 7.9×57mm S-Patrone (which was the service cartridge of Germany until the end of World War II), but their attempts were unsuccessful.[10] At first the rifles were tested by the infantry, where they proved highly susceptible to mud and dirt in the trenches, a problem familiar even to less complex designs such as the Canadian Ross Mk III straight-pull bolt-action rifle.[11] As aerial combat would provide much cleaner conditions, Imperial German Flying Corps (Luftstreitkräfte) decided to adopt the rifle, issuing two of them per aircraft crew. It was a significant improvement over bolt-action rifles (Gewehr 98) and pistols (Parabellum-Pistole), which at the time were issued to the crews. The rifle was adopted as Fl.-S.-K. 15 (Flieger-Selbstladekarabiner, Modell 1915 - Aviator's Selfloading Carbine, Model 1915) and issued with 30-round drum magazines.[1] The drum magazine was made to Friedrich Blum's patents,[12][13] which led also to the creation of 32-round drum magazine (Trommelmagazin 08) for the 1913 model of Parabellum-Pistole (LP 08). The corps used the Mondragón rifle until a sufficient number of machine guns equipped with synchronization gear became available to them. Very few of the rifles had survived the war.[1] After the war some of the rifles were in use by Imperial German Navy.[14]
In Switzerland, the Mondragon selfloading-rifle was modified for the 7.5×55mm Swiss-cartridge, equipped with a 12 round magazine and a Hülsenfangkorb, (a device to collect the ejected shells). The Mondragon equipped the World War I two-seater aircraft Häfeli DH and Blériot but was soon replaced by full-auto weapons.
Additional notes[edit]
Supposedly a few of the rifles were used by Mexican soldiers during an ambush on Pancho Villa.[15] Despite the fact that some of the sources claim that the Mexican Army used the rifle since 1911,[16][17] two pictures from Crónica Ilustrada Revolución Mexicana, Volume 1 on pages: 100[18] and 159,[19] and an article from Guns magazine[20] suggest that the rifle was in service as early as 1910.
206 Mondragón M1908 rifle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragón_rifle
The Mondragón rifle may refer to three rifle designs developed by Mexican artillery officer general Manuel Mondragón. The initial designs were straight-pull bolt-action rifles (M1893 and M1894); those rifles served as a basis for developing Mexico's first self-loading rifle, the M1908, which was also one of the first such designs to see combat use.
Straight-pull bolt-action rifles[edit]
In 1891 Mondragón began working on a rifle design. During his stay in Belgium he filed a patent application for which he had received a grant on March 23, 1892 (No. 98,947). During the same year, on April 20, Mondragón received also a grant from the French Patent Office (No. 221,035). In the following year, on February 8, he also filed an application in the United States Patent Office (No. 461, 476) and received a grant (No. 557,079) on March 24, 1896.[2] The rifle, referred to as M1893, was of a straight-pull bolt action design, chambered for 6.5x48mm cartridge (also developed by Mondragón), with a fixed magazine fed with 8-round en-bloc clips.[3] The rifle had three settings:[4] "A" - automatic, "L" - safe and "R" - rapid. The "automatic" fire setting allowed the rifle to fire a cartridge each time the bolt was manually cycled to closed position,[2] in similar fashion to Winchester M1897 pump action shotgun. The rifle could be equipped with a knife bayonet. The bayonet measured 41 cm and weighed 575 g, the blade was 28 cm long.[5] At the time Mexico had no manufacturers capable of producing such a complex design to the required tolerances, Mondragon with the backing of Diaz entrusted the Swiss Industrial Company (Schweizerische Industrie Gesellschaft) of Neuhausen, Switzerland with the production of the rifles. SIG received the first order in 1893, for 50 rifles, and another one in 1894, this time for 200 rifles. The rifles from the second order were chambered for 5.2x68mm round and referred to as M1894 (to differentiate them from the ones chambered for the 6.5mm cartridge). The 5.2mm cartridge was developed by Swiss colonel Eduard Rubin.[6]
Self-loading rifle[edit]
Mondragón continued his work, and on August 8, 1904 he filed a patent application (No. 219,989) for the new rifle, this time of a self-loading design. He received the patent grant (No. 853,715) on May 14, 1907.[7]
The design was adopted by the Mexican Army in 1908 as Fusil Porfirio Diaz Sistema Mondragón Modelo 1908. The same year, the Mexican government contracted with SIG for the production of 4,000, M1908 rifles, chambered for the 7×57mm Mauser Mexican service cartridge. Due to the political instability of Mexico at that time (Mexican Revolution), by 1910 only 400 of the ordered rifles had been delivered by SIG. The rifle's inability to cope with ammunition of poor quality, and the high unit cost of 160 SFr per rifle, led to the cancellation of the order by the Mexican government.
Mondragón Modelo 1908 was a gas-operated rifle with a rotating bolt, and a cylinder and piston arrangement. This design is now common, but was unusual at the time. The bolt was locked by lugs in helical grooves in the receiver. There was a switch, located on the charging handle, which would disengage the bolt from the gas system, changing the firearm into a straight-pull, bolt action, rifle. The rifle had a non-detachable box magazine and was filled by two, five round, stripper clips. The Mondragón Modelo 1908 rifles were fitted with a bipod. In addition to the knife bayonet introduced with the previous rifles, Mondragón designed a spade bayonet for use with the Modelo 1908,[8] for which he filed a patent application (No. 631,283) on June 6, 1911.[9]
Use during World War I[edit]
In 1914 the German Empire bought the remainder of the rifles produced by SIG[1] that had not been sent to Mexico, which could have been as high as 3,600 rifles (assuming that SIG had finished their side of the deal before the cancellation). Germans tried to modify the rifles for 7.9×57mm S-Patrone (which was the service cartridge of Germany until the end of World War II), but their attempts were unsuccessful.[10] At first the rifles were tested by the infantry, where they proved highly susceptible to mud and dirt in the trenches, a problem familiar even to less complex designs such as the Canadian Ross Mk III straight-pull bolt-action rifle.[11] As aerial combat would provide much cleaner conditions, Imperial German Flying Corps (Luftstreitkräfte) decided to adopt the rifle, issuing two of them per aircraft crew. It was a significant improvement over bolt-action rifles (Gewehr 98) and pistols (Parabellum-Pistole), which at the time were issued to the crews. The rifle was adopted as Fl.-S.-K. 15 (Flieger-Selbstladekarabiner, Modell 1915 - Aviator's Selfloading Carbine, Model 1915) and issued with 30-round drum magazines.[1] The drum magazine was made to Friedrich Blum's patents,[12][13] which led also to the creation of 32-round drum magazine (Trommelmagazin 08) for the 1913 model of Parabellum-Pistole (LP 08). The corps used the Mondragón rifle until a sufficient number of machine guns equipped with synchronization gear became available to them. Very few of the rifles had survived the war.[1] After the war some of the rifles were in use by Imperial German Navy.[14]
In Switzerland, the Mondragon selfloading-rifle was modified for the 7.5×55mm Swiss-cartridge, equipped with a 12 round magazine and a Hülsenfangkorb, (a device to collect the ejected shells). The Mondragon equipped the World War I two-seater aircraft Häfeli DH and Blériot but was soon replaced by full-auto weapons.
Additional notes[edit]
Supposedly a few of the rifles were used by Mexican soldiers during an ambush on Pancho Villa.[15] Despite the fact that some of the sources claim that the Mexican Army used the rifle since 1911,[16][17] two pictures from Crónica Ilustrada Revolución Mexicana, Volume 1 on pages: 100[18] and 159,[19] and an article from Guns magazine[20] suggest that the rifle was in service as early as 1910.
mapsjanhere
New member
De Lisle carbine, silenced SMLE in 45 ACP
mapsjanhere good catch, Never seen one before this but I sure would like to shoot one, I have a thing for pistol carbines
207 De Lisle carbine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Lisle_carbine
The De Lisle carbine or De Lisle Commando carbine was a British firearm used during World War II that was designed with an integrated suppressor. That, combined with its use of subsonic ammunition, made it extremely quiet in action, possibly one of the quietest firearms ever made.[3]
Few were manufactured as their use was limited to specialist military units
History[edit]
The weapon was designed as a private venture by William Godfray de Lisle (known as Godfray), an engineer who worked for the Air Ministry.[4] He made the first prototype in .22 calibre; this he tested by shooting rabbits and other small game for the table, near his home on the Berkshire Downs.[5] In 1943, he approached Major Sir Malcolm Campbell of Combined Operations with his prototype; this was informally tested by firing the weapon into the River Thames from the roof of the New Adelphi building in London. This was chosen to discover if people in the street below heard it firing – they did not.[5] Combined Operations officials were impressed with the weapon and requested De Lisle produce a 9mm version. However, this was a failure. A third prototype, using the .45 ACP cartridge that was favoured by de Lisle, was much more successful. Tests of this showed the weapon had adequate accuracy, produced no visible muzzle flash and was inaudible at a distance of 50 yards (46 m).[2]
Subsequent official firing tests recorded the De Lisle produced 85.5 dB of noise when fired.[6] As a comparison, modern testing on a selection of handguns has shown that they produce 156 to 168 dB when firing without a suppressor, and 117 to 140 dB when firing with one fitted.[7] The de Lisle's quietness was found to be comparable to the British Welrod pistol. However, the Welrod was useful only at very short range and used fabric and rubber components in the suppressor that required replacement after a few shots. The de Lisle was able to fire hundreds of rounds before the suppressor required disassembly for cleaning.[8]
Combined Operations requested a small production run of De Lisle carbines and an initial batch of 17 were hand–made by Ford Dagenham, with Godfray De Lisle himself released from his Air Ministry duties so he could work full-time on the project; this initial batch was immediately put into combat use by the British Commandos.[6] In 1944, the Sterling Armaments Company was given an order for 500 De Lisle carbines, but eventually only produced around 130.[6] The Sterling version differed in a number of details from the earlier, Ford Dagenham model. Two prototypes of a further version, for Airborne forces, were made. These had folding stocks, similar to those fitted to the Sterling submachine gun.[9]
During the remainder of World War II, the De Lisle carbine was mainly used by the Commandos, although they also saw some use by the Special Operations Executive (SOE).[10] E. Michael Burke, the American former commander of a Jedburgh Team, stated that a De Lisle was used by them to assassinate two senior German officers in 1944.[10]
A number of De Lisles were shipped to the Far East and used during the Burma Campaign. The De Lisle would also be used during the Korean War and the Malayan Emergency.[10] It has been claimed the weapon was also used by the Special Air Service during the Northern Irish Troubles.[10]
The De Lisle was based on a Short, Magazine, Lee–Enfield Mk III* converted to .45 ACP by modifying the receiver, altering the bolt/bolthead, replacing the barrel with a modified Thompson submachine gun barrel (6 grooves, RH twist), and using modified magazines from the M1911 pistol. The primary feature of the De Lisle was its extremely effective suppressor, which made it very quiet in action. So quiet, in fact, that working the bolt (to chamber the next round), makes a louder noise than firing a cartridge.[11]
The .45 ACP cartridge was selected as its muzzle velocity is subsonic for typical barrel lengths. As such, it would both retain its full lethality and not require custom-loaded ammunition to use with a suppressor. Most rifle rounds are supersonic, where the bullet generates a "sonic boom" like any other object traveling at supersonic velocities, making them unsuitable for covert purposes. The Thompson gun barrel was ported (i.e. drilled with holes) to provide a controlled release of high pressure gas into the suppressor that surrounds it before the bullet leaves the barrel. The suppressor, 2 inches (5.1 cm) in diameter, went all the way from the back of the barrel to well beyond the muzzle, making up half the overall length of the weapon. The suppressor provided a very large volume to contain the gases produced by firing; this was one of the keys to its effectiveness.[12] The MP5SD and AS Val are among other modern firearms that use the same concept.
The Lee–Enfield bolt was shortened to feed the .45 ACP rounds; the Lee–Enfield's magazine set-up was replaced with a new assembly that held a modified M1911 magazine. The single-shot, bolt operation offered an advantage in that the shooter could refrain from chambering the next round if absolute silence was required after firing. A semi-automatic weapon would not have offered this option as the cycling of the bolt coupled with rearward escaping propellant gas and the clink of the empty case against any hard surface would produce a noise with each shot.[13] As silent as the carbine was, it was not very accurate.[14]
De Lisle's own .22 prototype was given to the National Army Museum in London, but it was subsequently lost and its present whereabouts are unknown.[8] A reproduction of the carbine is manufactured by the American company, Valkyrie Arms.[15] Another company, Special Interest Arms, has announced limited production of a De Lisle replica which incorporates an improved magazine adapter system that allows the use of unmodified M1911 magazines and also fully supports the barrel chamber in the action.[16]
207 De Lisle carbine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Lisle_carbine
The De Lisle carbine or De Lisle Commando carbine was a British firearm used during World War II that was designed with an integrated suppressor. That, combined with its use of subsonic ammunition, made it extremely quiet in action, possibly one of the quietest firearms ever made.[3]
Few were manufactured as their use was limited to specialist military units
History[edit]
The weapon was designed as a private venture by William Godfray de Lisle (known as Godfray), an engineer who worked for the Air Ministry.[4] He made the first prototype in .22 calibre; this he tested by shooting rabbits and other small game for the table, near his home on the Berkshire Downs.[5] In 1943, he approached Major Sir Malcolm Campbell of Combined Operations with his prototype; this was informally tested by firing the weapon into the River Thames from the roof of the New Adelphi building in London. This was chosen to discover if people in the street below heard it firing – they did not.[5] Combined Operations officials were impressed with the weapon and requested De Lisle produce a 9mm version. However, this was a failure. A third prototype, using the .45 ACP cartridge that was favoured by de Lisle, was much more successful. Tests of this showed the weapon had adequate accuracy, produced no visible muzzle flash and was inaudible at a distance of 50 yards (46 m).[2]
Subsequent official firing tests recorded the De Lisle produced 85.5 dB of noise when fired.[6] As a comparison, modern testing on a selection of handguns has shown that they produce 156 to 168 dB when firing without a suppressor, and 117 to 140 dB when firing with one fitted.[7] The de Lisle's quietness was found to be comparable to the British Welrod pistol. However, the Welrod was useful only at very short range and used fabric and rubber components in the suppressor that required replacement after a few shots. The de Lisle was able to fire hundreds of rounds before the suppressor required disassembly for cleaning.[8]
Combined Operations requested a small production run of De Lisle carbines and an initial batch of 17 were hand–made by Ford Dagenham, with Godfray De Lisle himself released from his Air Ministry duties so he could work full-time on the project; this initial batch was immediately put into combat use by the British Commandos.[6] In 1944, the Sterling Armaments Company was given an order for 500 De Lisle carbines, but eventually only produced around 130.[6] The Sterling version differed in a number of details from the earlier, Ford Dagenham model. Two prototypes of a further version, for Airborne forces, were made. These had folding stocks, similar to those fitted to the Sterling submachine gun.[9]
During the remainder of World War II, the De Lisle carbine was mainly used by the Commandos, although they also saw some use by the Special Operations Executive (SOE).[10] E. Michael Burke, the American former commander of a Jedburgh Team, stated that a De Lisle was used by them to assassinate two senior German officers in 1944.[10]
A number of De Lisles were shipped to the Far East and used during the Burma Campaign. The De Lisle would also be used during the Korean War and the Malayan Emergency.[10] It has been claimed the weapon was also used by the Special Air Service during the Northern Irish Troubles.[10]
The De Lisle was based on a Short, Magazine, Lee–Enfield Mk III* converted to .45 ACP by modifying the receiver, altering the bolt/bolthead, replacing the barrel with a modified Thompson submachine gun barrel (6 grooves, RH twist), and using modified magazines from the M1911 pistol. The primary feature of the De Lisle was its extremely effective suppressor, which made it very quiet in action. So quiet, in fact, that working the bolt (to chamber the next round), makes a louder noise than firing a cartridge.[11]
The .45 ACP cartridge was selected as its muzzle velocity is subsonic for typical barrel lengths. As such, it would both retain its full lethality and not require custom-loaded ammunition to use with a suppressor. Most rifle rounds are supersonic, where the bullet generates a "sonic boom" like any other object traveling at supersonic velocities, making them unsuitable for covert purposes. The Thompson gun barrel was ported (i.e. drilled with holes) to provide a controlled release of high pressure gas into the suppressor that surrounds it before the bullet leaves the barrel. The suppressor, 2 inches (5.1 cm) in diameter, went all the way from the back of the barrel to well beyond the muzzle, making up half the overall length of the weapon. The suppressor provided a very large volume to contain the gases produced by firing; this was one of the keys to its effectiveness.[12] The MP5SD and AS Val are among other modern firearms that use the same concept.
The Lee–Enfield bolt was shortened to feed the .45 ACP rounds; the Lee–Enfield's magazine set-up was replaced with a new assembly that held a modified M1911 magazine. The single-shot, bolt operation offered an advantage in that the shooter could refrain from chambering the next round if absolute silence was required after firing. A semi-automatic weapon would not have offered this option as the cycling of the bolt coupled with rearward escaping propellant gas and the clink of the empty case against any hard surface would produce a noise with each shot.[13] As silent as the carbine was, it was not very accurate.[14]
De Lisle's own .22 prototype was given to the National Army Museum in London, but it was subsequently lost and its present whereabouts are unknown.[8] A reproduction of the carbine is manufactured by the American company, Valkyrie Arms.[15] Another company, Special Interest Arms, has announced limited production of a De Lisle replica which incorporates an improved magazine adapter system that allows the use of unmodified M1911 magazines and also fully supports the barrel chamber in the action.[16]
Very good tangolima but this 30 minute crap has to stop
208 Gewehr 1888
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewehr_1888
The Gewehr 88 (commonly called the Model 1888 commission rifle) was a late 19th-century German bolt action rifle, adopted in 1888.
The invention of smokeless powder in the late 19th century immediately rendered all of the large-bore black powder rifles then in use obsolete. To keep pace with the French (who had adopted smokeless powder "small bore" ammunition for their Lebel Model 1886 rifle) the Germans adopted the Gewehr 88 using its own new M/88 cartridge, which was also designed by the German Rifle Commission.[8] The rifle was one of many weapons in the arms race between the Germanic states and France, and with Europe in general. There were also two carbine versions, the Karabiner 88 for mounted troops and the Gewehr 91 for artillery. Later models provided for loading with stripper clips (Gewehr 88/05s and Gewehr 88/14s) and went on to serve in World War I to a limited degree. Unlike many German service rifles before and after, it was not developed by Mauser but the arms commission, and Mauser was one of the few major arms manufacturers in Germany that did not produce Gewehr 88s.[9]
Design[edit]
In 1886, fifteen years after their defeat by German forces in the Franco-Prussian War, the French Army introduced the new Lebel magazine rifle firing an 8 mm high-velocity projectile propelled by the new smokeless powder. This made Germany’s rifle, the Mauser Model 1871, obsolete due to its large and slow 11 mm round propelled by black powder. The practical result was that the French rifle had greater accuracy and range, giving French troops a tactical advantage over the German Army. In response the German Army’s Rifle Testing Commission developed the Gewehr 88 which was adopted for service in 1888. For this reason the Gewehr 88 is also known as the "commission rifle," or "reichsgewehr".
1888 pattern M/88 (left) alongside the 1905 pattern 7.92×57mm Mauser S Patrone
The first step was to design a new cartridge; the Patrone 88 or M/88. This began by adapting a Swiss design, resulting in a new 8 mm rimless "necked" cartridge (bullet diameter 8.08mm / .318 in) which featured single-base smokeless powder. In 1905, the 8 mm M/88 cartridge which was introduced in 1888 and loaded with an 8.08 mm (.318 in) 14.6 g (226 gr) round-nose bullet was replaced by the 7.92×57mm Mauser S Patrone (ball cartridge) which was loaded with a new 8.20 mm (.323 in) 9.9 g (154 gr) spitzer bullet and more powerful double-base smokeless powder. The United States military followed a similar chambering modernization process from the 30-03 to the 30-06 Springfield.
The Gewehr 88 is in essence a Mannlicher design, though it is sometimes (incorrectly) called a "Model 88 Mauser". It has a receiver with a "split bridge" (i.e., the bolt passes through the receiver and locks in front of the rear bridge); a rotating bolt head; and the characteristic Mannlicher-style "packet loading" or "en-bloc" system in which cartridges are loaded into a steel carrier (a charger clip) which is inserted into the magazine, where it holds the cartridges in alignment over a spring. As shots are fired the clip remains in place until the last round is chambered, at which point it drops through a hole in the bottom of the rifle. This system was used in almost all Mannlicher designs and derivatives, and while it allows for speedy reloading, it also creates an entry point for dirt. To settle a patent infringement claim by Steyr-Mannlicher, Germany contracted the Austro-Hungarian company to be one of the manufacturers of Gewehr 88s.
Bolt and barrel[edit]
The commission rifle's bolt action design was a modified Mannlicher action with a few Mauser features, but it is not truly a "Mauser". The barrel design and rifling were virtually copied from the French Lebel. The rifle has an odd appearance as the entire barrel is encased in a sheet metal tube for protection, but with the tube removed the rifle looks rather modern. This tube was intended to increase accuracy by preventing the barrel from directly contacting the stock, but in practice it increased the risk of rusting by providing a space for water to be trapped if the rifle was exposed to harsh conditions. The Karabiner 88 utilized a different bolt handle, which resembled those found on commercial sporting rifles.
Service history[edit]
Some early models had flaws due to rushed ammunition production. This was used in 1892 by the then notorious anti-Semitic agitator Hermann Ahlwardt, member of the german Reichstag, to spread an anti-semitic conspiracy theory. Many of the Gewehr 88-rifles were produced by the armament manufacturer Loewe & Company, who's chairman was jewish entrepreneur Isidor Loewe. Isidor Loewe also held a controlling interest in the Waffenfabrik Mauser. According to Ahlwardt's claims, Loewe would either deliberately supply the german army with insufficient rifles, or, along with other jews, secretly exchange rifles with flawed ones after they had passed the reliability tests. Ahlwardt accused Loewe of being a spy for France, and denounced the rifle as a Judenflinte ("Jews' musket"). After these claims were found insupportable, Ahlwardt was sentenced to 4 months in prison for malicious falsehood.[9][10]
Part of the production run was exported to China (see lower) or Latin America (for example Brazil army use them in War of Canudos in 1896–1897). The commission rifle saw field service with Germany's colonial expansion, including in China during the Boxer Rebellion (with the Gewehr 88s and the unlicensed Hanyang 88 copies also being used by the opposing Chinese troops), and served as a front line weapon for German troops during World War I until 1915 when the supply of Gewehr 98s increased. When Germany replaced the 88 with the Gewehr 98, many of the rifles were given to Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire during World War I because both states had a shortage of rifles (however, it was used extensively by the Turkish Army even through the 1930s and 1940s). Many Gewehr 88 rifles stayed in active service in second-line units, reserves, and in armies allied with the Germans through and well past World War I.
Most of the Gewehr 88s seen in the US are the ones that were given to the Turkish forces in World War I and have been modified from the original design. The Turks issued these and updated versions at least as late as the 1930s. Gewehr 88/05 rifles were also used by Yugoslavia,[11] Czechoslovakia, (for example as modified guard shotgun)[12] or Poland. Gewehr 88 rifles have been used widely during post World War I revolutions, uprisings and wars (usually on both sides of the Russian Civil War, the German Revolution of 1918–19, the Revolutions and interventions in Hungary (1918–20), the Greater Poland Uprising (1918–19), the Silesian Uprisings, the Turkish War of Independence, the Polish–Soviet War,[13] by the Ulster Volunteers, the Ulster Special Constabulary and also on the other side during the Irish War of Independence and by Lithuanians in the Lithuanian Wars of Independence). About 5,500 Gewehr and Karabiner 88s were delivered to the Lithuanian Army in 1919-1920 (granted by Germany and sold by France and the UK). Used by the paramilitary Rifle Union, the rest were kept in the storage and were re-barreled before World War II. Inter-war Germany used Gewehr 88 rifles only for the militia. Gewehr 88 rifles were also used in the Spanish Civil War by both sides.[14] At the beginning of World War II some Gewehr 88 rifles were still in use, by second line units or paramilitary organizations (or partisans) in Poland[15] and Yugoslavia.[16] Part of the ex-UVF rifles are used by Home Guard in United Kingdom in 1940.[17] Ethiopean rifles (some ex-UVF rifles also found their way there) also saw action during the East African Campaign. These rifles were also used by the German Volkssturm in 1944–1945.[18]
China also used this rifle extensively during the Qing dynasty and the Republican era. China first bought Gewehr 88 rifles for the First Sino-Japanese War in 1894–1895 and after that started production of the unlicensed Hanyang 88 copy. In the beginning of the 20th century China bought for a second time a large number of original Gewehr 88 rifles. In following nearly 50 years it and its Hanyang 88 copy were used in the Xinhai Revolution, the Chinese Civil War and the War of Resistance against Japan and proved more than adequate against the Japanese Arisaka Type 38 rifle, though the latter was newer by 30 years. The last time they saw action in Chinese service was during the Korean War, where some of them were captured and taken to the US as souvenirs.[19]
The rifle was adopted during a period of rapid development in firearms technology, and marked Germany's shift to a smokeless powder. This explains why its period as the primary German service rifle was just over a dozen years, but it remained in limited service for much longer. In 1898 a Mauser design was adopted, the Gewehr 98, which was the culmination of a series of Mauser models in the 1890s. It was a superior replacement using the same ammunition with a stronger powder charge. However, this rifle soon had to be converted to fire the new pointed round that Germany adapted after the turn of the century. With these modifications the newer design remained in use until the end of World War II.
The Gewehr 88 was also sometimes made into very elegant sporting rifles by gunsmiths in Germany. Examples of these usually show first-class workmanship and special features such as folding sights and altered bolt handles. Some Karabiner 88 carbines are known to have been produced in 7×57mm Mauser instead of the usual M/88 or the 7.92×57mm Mauser chambering.[20] These were likely intended for sale in South America, where use of the 7×57mm cartridge was widespread, but no military adopted it in this caliber. All known 7×57mm Karabiner 88s were produced by Haenel.
208 Gewehr 1888
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewehr_1888
The Gewehr 88 (commonly called the Model 1888 commission rifle) was a late 19th-century German bolt action rifle, adopted in 1888.
The invention of smokeless powder in the late 19th century immediately rendered all of the large-bore black powder rifles then in use obsolete. To keep pace with the French (who had adopted smokeless powder "small bore" ammunition for their Lebel Model 1886 rifle) the Germans adopted the Gewehr 88 using its own new M/88 cartridge, which was also designed by the German Rifle Commission.[8] The rifle was one of many weapons in the arms race between the Germanic states and France, and with Europe in general. There were also two carbine versions, the Karabiner 88 for mounted troops and the Gewehr 91 for artillery. Later models provided for loading with stripper clips (Gewehr 88/05s and Gewehr 88/14s) and went on to serve in World War I to a limited degree. Unlike many German service rifles before and after, it was not developed by Mauser but the arms commission, and Mauser was one of the few major arms manufacturers in Germany that did not produce Gewehr 88s.[9]
Design[edit]
In 1886, fifteen years after their defeat by German forces in the Franco-Prussian War, the French Army introduced the new Lebel magazine rifle firing an 8 mm high-velocity projectile propelled by the new smokeless powder. This made Germany’s rifle, the Mauser Model 1871, obsolete due to its large and slow 11 mm round propelled by black powder. The practical result was that the French rifle had greater accuracy and range, giving French troops a tactical advantage over the German Army. In response the German Army’s Rifle Testing Commission developed the Gewehr 88 which was adopted for service in 1888. For this reason the Gewehr 88 is also known as the "commission rifle," or "reichsgewehr".
1888 pattern M/88 (left) alongside the 1905 pattern 7.92×57mm Mauser S Patrone
The first step was to design a new cartridge; the Patrone 88 or M/88. This began by adapting a Swiss design, resulting in a new 8 mm rimless "necked" cartridge (bullet diameter 8.08mm / .318 in) which featured single-base smokeless powder. In 1905, the 8 mm M/88 cartridge which was introduced in 1888 and loaded with an 8.08 mm (.318 in) 14.6 g (226 gr) round-nose bullet was replaced by the 7.92×57mm Mauser S Patrone (ball cartridge) which was loaded with a new 8.20 mm (.323 in) 9.9 g (154 gr) spitzer bullet and more powerful double-base smokeless powder. The United States military followed a similar chambering modernization process from the 30-03 to the 30-06 Springfield.
The Gewehr 88 is in essence a Mannlicher design, though it is sometimes (incorrectly) called a "Model 88 Mauser". It has a receiver with a "split bridge" (i.e., the bolt passes through the receiver and locks in front of the rear bridge); a rotating bolt head; and the characteristic Mannlicher-style "packet loading" or "en-bloc" system in which cartridges are loaded into a steel carrier (a charger clip) which is inserted into the magazine, where it holds the cartridges in alignment over a spring. As shots are fired the clip remains in place until the last round is chambered, at which point it drops through a hole in the bottom of the rifle. This system was used in almost all Mannlicher designs and derivatives, and while it allows for speedy reloading, it also creates an entry point for dirt. To settle a patent infringement claim by Steyr-Mannlicher, Germany contracted the Austro-Hungarian company to be one of the manufacturers of Gewehr 88s.
Bolt and barrel[edit]
The commission rifle's bolt action design was a modified Mannlicher action with a few Mauser features, but it is not truly a "Mauser". The barrel design and rifling were virtually copied from the French Lebel. The rifle has an odd appearance as the entire barrel is encased in a sheet metal tube for protection, but with the tube removed the rifle looks rather modern. This tube was intended to increase accuracy by preventing the barrel from directly contacting the stock, but in practice it increased the risk of rusting by providing a space for water to be trapped if the rifle was exposed to harsh conditions. The Karabiner 88 utilized a different bolt handle, which resembled those found on commercial sporting rifles.
Service history[edit]
Some early models had flaws due to rushed ammunition production. This was used in 1892 by the then notorious anti-Semitic agitator Hermann Ahlwardt, member of the german Reichstag, to spread an anti-semitic conspiracy theory. Many of the Gewehr 88-rifles were produced by the armament manufacturer Loewe & Company, who's chairman was jewish entrepreneur Isidor Loewe. Isidor Loewe also held a controlling interest in the Waffenfabrik Mauser. According to Ahlwardt's claims, Loewe would either deliberately supply the german army with insufficient rifles, or, along with other jews, secretly exchange rifles with flawed ones after they had passed the reliability tests. Ahlwardt accused Loewe of being a spy for France, and denounced the rifle as a Judenflinte ("Jews' musket"). After these claims were found insupportable, Ahlwardt was sentenced to 4 months in prison for malicious falsehood.[9][10]
Part of the production run was exported to China (see lower) or Latin America (for example Brazil army use them in War of Canudos in 1896–1897). The commission rifle saw field service with Germany's colonial expansion, including in China during the Boxer Rebellion (with the Gewehr 88s and the unlicensed Hanyang 88 copies also being used by the opposing Chinese troops), and served as a front line weapon for German troops during World War I until 1915 when the supply of Gewehr 98s increased. When Germany replaced the 88 with the Gewehr 98, many of the rifles were given to Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire during World War I because both states had a shortage of rifles (however, it was used extensively by the Turkish Army even through the 1930s and 1940s). Many Gewehr 88 rifles stayed in active service in second-line units, reserves, and in armies allied with the Germans through and well past World War I.
Most of the Gewehr 88s seen in the US are the ones that were given to the Turkish forces in World War I and have been modified from the original design. The Turks issued these and updated versions at least as late as the 1930s. Gewehr 88/05 rifles were also used by Yugoslavia,[11] Czechoslovakia, (for example as modified guard shotgun)[12] or Poland. Gewehr 88 rifles have been used widely during post World War I revolutions, uprisings and wars (usually on both sides of the Russian Civil War, the German Revolution of 1918–19, the Revolutions and interventions in Hungary (1918–20), the Greater Poland Uprising (1918–19), the Silesian Uprisings, the Turkish War of Independence, the Polish–Soviet War,[13] by the Ulster Volunteers, the Ulster Special Constabulary and also on the other side during the Irish War of Independence and by Lithuanians in the Lithuanian Wars of Independence). About 5,500 Gewehr and Karabiner 88s were delivered to the Lithuanian Army in 1919-1920 (granted by Germany and sold by France and the UK). Used by the paramilitary Rifle Union, the rest were kept in the storage and were re-barreled before World War II. Inter-war Germany used Gewehr 88 rifles only for the militia. Gewehr 88 rifles were also used in the Spanish Civil War by both sides.[14] At the beginning of World War II some Gewehr 88 rifles were still in use, by second line units or paramilitary organizations (or partisans) in Poland[15] and Yugoslavia.[16] Part of the ex-UVF rifles are used by Home Guard in United Kingdom in 1940.[17] Ethiopean rifles (some ex-UVF rifles also found their way there) also saw action during the East African Campaign. These rifles were also used by the German Volkssturm in 1944–1945.[18]
China also used this rifle extensively during the Qing dynasty and the Republican era. China first bought Gewehr 88 rifles for the First Sino-Japanese War in 1894–1895 and after that started production of the unlicensed Hanyang 88 copy. In the beginning of the 20th century China bought for a second time a large number of original Gewehr 88 rifles. In following nearly 50 years it and its Hanyang 88 copy were used in the Xinhai Revolution, the Chinese Civil War and the War of Resistance against Japan and proved more than adequate against the Japanese Arisaka Type 38 rifle, though the latter was newer by 30 years. The last time they saw action in Chinese service was during the Korean War, where some of them were captured and taken to the US as souvenirs.[19]
The rifle was adopted during a period of rapid development in firearms technology, and marked Germany's shift to a smokeless powder. This explains why its period as the primary German service rifle was just over a dozen years, but it remained in limited service for much longer. In 1898 a Mauser design was adopted, the Gewehr 98, which was the culmination of a series of Mauser models in the 1890s. It was a superior replacement using the same ammunition with a stronger powder charge. However, this rifle soon had to be converted to fire the new pointed round that Germany adapted after the turn of the century. With these modifications the newer design remained in use until the end of World War II.
The Gewehr 88 was also sometimes made into very elegant sporting rifles by gunsmiths in Germany. Examples of these usually show first-class workmanship and special features such as folding sights and altered bolt handles. Some Karabiner 88 carbines are known to have been produced in 7×57mm Mauser instead of the usual M/88 or the 7.92×57mm Mauser chambering.[20] These were likely intended for sale in South America, where use of the 7×57mm cartridge was widespread, but no military adopted it in this caliber. All known 7×57mm Karabiner 88s were produced by Haenel.
dakota.potts
New member
I agree. Looks like a model 1910/21
Tidewater_Kid
New member
Look at this video. It definitely a Bergman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uWT-l5Uo28
He says 1903 Bergman Mars
TK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uWT-l5Uo28
He says 1903 Bergman Mars
TK
Mike Irwin
Staff
Shape of the grip is wrong for a Bermann Bayard.
Bayards had a straighter backstrap, while the Mars had a more curved backstrap.
I THINK that it is a very early production Mars. Later production guns looked more like the Bayards.
Bayards had a straighter backstrap, while the Mars had a more curved backstrap.
I THINK that it is a very early production Mars. Later production guns looked more like the Bayards.
mapsjanhere
New member
Looks a lot like this one http://www.icollector.com/Extremely-Rare-Bergman-MARS-Semi-Automatic-Pistol_i9965997
Tidewater_Kid has it, its a 1903 good one. I have never seen one before and I have always had a thing for a broom handle but I truly think this gun is better looking.
Bergmann–Bayard pistol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergmann–Bayard_pistol
The Bergmann–Bayard was a German designed semi-automatic pistol produced under license in Belgium.
Bergmann Mars[edit]
The Bergmann Mars was produced in 1901, and was the first Bergmann design aimed squarely at the military market, with a comparatively powerful 9×23mm Bergmann round. It aroused the interest of a number of armies and was the subject of several trials in competition with the Mauser C96, Mannlicher, Browning and Luger pistols.
300 Model 1903[edit]
The Bergmann–Bayard Model 1903 was adopted by the Spanish army in 1905 as the Pistola Bergmann de 9 mm. modelo 1903. Unable to find a German manufacturer to complete the Spanish order for 3000 pistols, Theodor Bergmann turned to a Belgian manufacturer, Anciens Etablissements Pieper (who used the trademark "Bayard") and who completed the order.[1] The modified pistol was known as the Bergmann Bayard 1908 (not to be confused with Pieper-Bayard 1908), or in Spain as the Pistola Bergmann de 9 mm. modelo 1908. Although adopted in 1908 delivery of the approximately 3,000 weapons was not completed until two years later. Meanwhile other manufacturers such as Campo-Giro had adopted the 9mm Bergmann–Bayard round and, due to its long history of use in Spanish submachine guns, carbines and pistols, today it is most commonly known as the 9mm Largo.
Bergmann–Bayard pistol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergmann–Bayard_pistol
The Bergmann–Bayard was a German designed semi-automatic pistol produced under license in Belgium.
Bergmann Mars[edit]
The Bergmann Mars was produced in 1901, and was the first Bergmann design aimed squarely at the military market, with a comparatively powerful 9×23mm Bergmann round. It aroused the interest of a number of armies and was the subject of several trials in competition with the Mauser C96, Mannlicher, Browning and Luger pistols.
300 Model 1903[edit]
The Bergmann–Bayard Model 1903 was adopted by the Spanish army in 1905 as the Pistola Bergmann de 9 mm. modelo 1903. Unable to find a German manufacturer to complete the Spanish order for 3000 pistols, Theodor Bergmann turned to a Belgian manufacturer, Anciens Etablissements Pieper (who used the trademark "Bayard") and who completed the order.[1] The modified pistol was known as the Bergmann Bayard 1908 (not to be confused with Pieper-Bayard 1908), or in Spain as the Pistola Bergmann de 9 mm. modelo 1908. Although adopted in 1908 delivery of the approximately 3,000 weapons was not completed until two years later. Meanwhile other manufacturers such as Campo-Giro had adopted the 9mm Bergmann–Bayard round and, due to its long history of use in Spanish submachine guns, carbines and pistols, today it is most commonly known as the 9mm Largo.
Scorch Its actually a Форт-17 but your still correct 
The attached is a photo without the markings removed
Fort-17
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort-17
The Fort 17 (Ukrainian: Форт-17) is a semi-automatic pistol which was designed in the 2004[2] by Ukrainian firearms designer RPC Fort.
Description and design details[edit]
The pistol is similar to the Fort 12, but is much lighter. It also features a removable grip backstrap to fit a particular shooter.[1]
Variants[edit]
• Fort 17 - designed for 9 x 18 mm PM cartridge
• Fort 17 Curz - designed for 9 mm Kurz cartridge
• Kobra (Кобра) - IPSC sport pistol, 9×18mm Makarov cartridge
• Kordon («Кордон») — sporting pistol designed for .22 Long Rifle. 10 rounds box magazine.
• Fort 17R (Форт-17Р) - non-lethal gas pistol with the ability to fire ammunition with rubber bullets.[3]
• Fort 17T (Форт-17T) - non-lethal gas pistol with the ability to fire ammunition with rubber bullets.[4]
The attached is a photo without the markings removed
Fort-17
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort-17
The Fort 17 (Ukrainian: Форт-17) is a semi-automatic pistol which was designed in the 2004[2] by Ukrainian firearms designer RPC Fort.
Description and design details[edit]
The pistol is similar to the Fort 12, but is much lighter. It also features a removable grip backstrap to fit a particular shooter.[1]
Variants[edit]
• Fort 17 - designed for 9 x 18 mm PM cartridge
• Fort 17 Curz - designed for 9 mm Kurz cartridge
• Kobra (Кобра) - IPSC sport pistol, 9×18mm Makarov cartridge
• Kordon («Кордон») — sporting pistol designed for .22 Long Rifle. 10 rounds box magazine.
• Fort 17R (Форт-17Р) - non-lethal gas pistol with the ability to fire ammunition with rubber bullets.[3]
• Fort 17T (Форт-17T) - non-lethal gas pistol with the ability to fire ammunition with rubber bullets.[4]
