What, if anything to do about China?
- Thread starter CarbineCaleb
- Start date
Taiwan is a free country? Neither does US nor China think so. Not to mention the UN and the rest of world.
If you are saying PRC is illegal, how about the United States? The land of America does not belong to those who call themselves American today.
Speaking of Saddam getting a second chance, well if he doesn't have oil like Kim, he would have got millions of chances, right? Look at the North Korea, and how many chances they have got.
If you are saying PRC is illegal, how about the United States? The land of America does not belong to those who call themselves American today.
Speaking of Saddam getting a second chance, well if he doesn't have oil like Kim, he would have got millions of chances, right? Look at the North Korea, and how many chances they have got.
China swallows you? This is a free world. USA does not have to buy anything from China. China does not put a gun on USA's head and force everyone of us buy from them.
So, why do we import so much made-in-china? Why not just shut off our ports and use everything that is made in the beloved USA?
So, why do we import so much made-in-china? Why not just shut off our ports and use everything that is made in the beloved USA?
CarbineCaleb
New member
China's Ascendency?
Well, a lot of spirited debate here. I don't personally believe China is a threat militarily - if threat means they will attack us - if you think about what the result would be (for both countries, essentially) why on earth would they do that? I think that some people overestimate the aggressiveness of China acting outside their borders - little history of that. If you want to fear someone based on their M.O., fear Europe. Might China get into some kind of martial conflict over lands that it possessed in the recent past? Maybe - but that is a little different than comparing them to the Nazis who were simply expanding arbitrarily into other countries as they could take them.
As to economically, who knows? If they are able to sustain percentage growth for the next ten years that they've had in the last ten years, they will I believe surpass the US in GDP as measured by Purchasing Power Parity (PPP). They are as some have noted, going through considerable growing pains, however, and I'm no economist, but I believe they are purposely restraining growth somewhat to stablize the currency.
Politically, it will be interesting to see if they can retain their Communist government together with a Capitalist economic system. It is not any part of the Communist philosophy, but, as a practical matter, the government is still currently exercising considerable control and censorship of information. They have recently gotten a new President, Hu Jintao, who is younger and somewhat more modern and moderate than his predecessors (though not drastically so):
He is also the head of the Communist Party in China.
As others have said, I also believe that the people will gradually expect more and more freedom. I don't think the Communists will just step down or vote themselves out of power - noone does that. Whether they can manage a smooth transition to a more open society or whether there will be some sudden event, like a revolution - who knows? They are really sailing in uncharted waters here.
Jonathon - just who are the Communists who run the Senate? You mean the Republican majority? What would you base "treason charges" against them on? Likewise for the entire Democratic party, whom you also seem to believe guilty of treason (or even any members you believe guilty of treason) - what is the substance of charges like that?
Well, a lot of spirited debate here. I don't personally believe China is a threat militarily - if threat means they will attack us - if you think about what the result would be (for both countries, essentially) why on earth would they do that? I think that some people overestimate the aggressiveness of China acting outside their borders - little history of that. If you want to fear someone based on their M.O., fear Europe. Might China get into some kind of martial conflict over lands that it possessed in the recent past? Maybe - but that is a little different than comparing them to the Nazis who were simply expanding arbitrarily into other countries as they could take them.
As to economically, who knows? If they are able to sustain percentage growth for the next ten years that they've had in the last ten years, they will I believe surpass the US in GDP as measured by Purchasing Power Parity (PPP). They are as some have noted, going through considerable growing pains, however, and I'm no economist, but I believe they are purposely restraining growth somewhat to stablize the currency.
Politically, it will be interesting to see if they can retain their Communist government together with a Capitalist economic system. It is not any part of the Communist philosophy, but, as a practical matter, the government is still currently exercising considerable control and censorship of information. They have recently gotten a new President, Hu Jintao, who is younger and somewhat more modern and moderate than his predecessors (though not drastically so):
He is also the head of the Communist Party in China.
As others have said, I also believe that the people will gradually expect more and more freedom. I don't think the Communists will just step down or vote themselves out of power - noone does that. Whether they can manage a smooth transition to a more open society or whether there will be some sudden event, like a revolution - who knows? They are really sailing in uncharted waters here.
Jonathon - just who are the Communists who run the Senate? You mean the Republican majority? What would you base "treason charges" against them on? Likewise for the entire Democratic party, whom you also seem to believe guilty of treason (or even any members you believe guilty of treason) - what is the substance of charges like that?
why do I get the feeling that Stupid's interests verge on the personal and homegrown?
Just as a reminder, Stupid, this country has been invaded before, been attacked, and more recently has faced a direct nuclear threat for fifty years. And yes we were threatened by a communist leader, he said he would bury us. The red Chinese are much more subtle, issuing veiled threats about destroying LA, by informing us that their delivery systems can now place a warhead that far with reasonable accuracy.
Best,
Rom
Just as a reminder, Stupid, this country has been invaded before, been attacked, and more recently has faced a direct nuclear threat for fifty years. And yes we were threatened by a communist leader, he said he would bury us. The red Chinese are much more subtle, issuing veiled threats about destroying LA, by informing us that their delivery systems can now place a warhead that far with reasonable accuracy.
Best,
Rom
I bet USA is such a peace loving country that does not even have nuclear weapons. If it does, it would peacefully aim its 20,000 nuclear warheads at ... well, whatever, but certainly not China, right?
If you must know China has only about 10% of the USA's warheads - less than 200 something. China also has a no first strike policy on nuclear weapons. Can USA make the same promise not to use nuclear weapon against others unless being fired upon?
Tell me again who is threatening who?
If you must know China has only about 10% of the USA's warheads - less than 200 something. China also has a no first strike policy on nuclear weapons. Can USA make the same promise not to use nuclear weapon against others unless being fired upon?
Tell me again who is threatening who?
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
I think China's in the midst of growing pains. They are evolving. Remember that for centuries, China was essentially a closed culture, but they are a far cry today from what they were even 20 years ago. The Chinese youth of today have gotten a taste of democracy, and the few hard-liners left in their government will never be able to suppress them, so at least for the next few decades, I think they're going to have too many internal problems to focus any aggressions outside. I worry more about N. Korea and Iran, but neither would I take my eyes off of them (China). If there is to be a starting point for a brushfire in China, I think it would be Taiwan. On a side note, it seems that for the first time, we have to worry about a religion rather than a country and that's proving to be far more difficult.
MeekAndMild
New member
Let me help here a bit.
What could be some of the causes for war with China within 20 years? within 40 years?
In general what causes war? Population growth, expansion of economic influence, religious difference, conflict over colonies and territorial disputes come to mind.
I will only discuss two of these, one for the expansionistic wars over the next 20 years and the other for the bigger wars in 40 years.
Population growth continues despite the one family-one child policy, though it is slowed considerably. The problem with their growth limiting process is that for the last 30 years individual chinese families have chosen selective abortion and infantacide of females so there are over a million excess men, with the sexual disparity increasing year by year. What is the collective response of sexually frustrated men who lack available breeding females? If we look back into history we see two societies which had similar problems (though their excess of horny males was the product of polygyny rather than selective infanticide) the Vikings and the medieval Turks. Both societies set out on a series of conquests. Although there were religious and economic reasons, their armies were made up of batchelors looking for...women. I think their most likely targets will be India, Pakistan and Indonesia, but who knows? Maybe they will set their sights on South America or will finish the colonization of Africa they started 40 years ago.
Territorial disputes will increase within 40 years because of Bill Clinton's sellout of our missile technology. What?
Recall stories of the 1400's when Ming China was poised on brink of world domination and colonization? For some reason they turned back, burned their fleets and took second place to the Europeans. IMHO they have been smarting from this mistake ever since the Europeans colonized them. Clinton gave them the technology to reverse this by developing a space program. Once the US realizes that China is on its way to developing the high frontier then war will be inevitable unless we are planning to give up our own space program. We have regressed a good bit over the past 20 years though we didn't quite burn our space program, so maybe there will be hope we might win this one.
CarbineCaleb
New member
Bill Clinton selling ICBMs? War in Space? China to conquer India for sex?
MeekAndMild:
Can you elaborate on that? It sounds like you are saying that Bill Clinton sold our ICBM technology to the Chinese? If that's true, when did that happen? How much did he get? Any reliable information sources you can cite to this that I could also look at?
In the second part, it sounds like you are saying that the US and China will go to war over territorial disputes in Space? Please explain that one as well.
Here, it sounds like you are predicting that China will conquer India... to get laid???
It's pretty late right now, so maybe I am not understanding what you are saying because I am sleepy???
MeekAndMild:
Can you elaborate on that? It sounds like you are saying that Bill Clinton sold our ICBM technology to the Chinese? If that's true, when did that happen? How much did he get? Any reliable information sources you can cite to this that I could also look at?
In the second part, it sounds like you are saying that the US and China will go to war over territorial disputes in Space? Please explain that one as well.
Here, it sounds like you are predicting that China will conquer India... to get laid???
It's pretty late right now, so maybe I am not understanding what you are saying because I am sleepy???
Last edited:
jonathon,
I agree. Unfortunately it has not just been liberals, and it goes back to the George Sr and the Clinton era if not earlier. Probably back to when George Sr was living over there.
CarbineCaleb and Capt Charlie,
China is a threat militarily simply because we are not in any position to challenge them in a major showdown or war without resorting to nuclear weapons.
Despite the fact that China has "so few" nuclear weapons - they are enough - and there is no telling how far along they might be with more, or other things that we are unaware of.
If we have been unable to zero in on anything dangerous in a desert plot like Iraq - how can we even dream that we know anything substantial about what is sitting in China? China has developed one of the most effective secret services and espionage systems in modern history. They were very effective at an early stage, and they learned some hard lessons at the hands of the British and other western nations during the opium wars.
I agree with MeekAndMild. It is precisely their growing pains that might cause them to turn aggressive. A combination of their economic domination and potentially enormous military might could easily swamp us in a few short years.
Their markets are growing at an enormous rate; for example they are currently number three behind the U.S. and Japan in the auto market. But they are set to overtake Japan in this regard very soon, and we won't be far behind. While they supposedly have the second largest oil and gas reserves on earth, in the interim they will drive demand - and it's commodity market based cost - through the roof.
So what is going to happen when oil runs past $100 a barrel, and people are screaming here at home, while pressure is on to appease the Chinese to "prevent them becoming a greater threat"? What is going to give? And that is just one item, one market.
Then there are resources like shipping; it is not just Chinese goods that are drowning us and other parts of the world - it is a huge Chinese merchant fleet that is moving things around. They control a huge chunk of the global transportation system.
We've been set up for our undoing.
I agree. Unfortunately it has not just been liberals, and it goes back to the George Sr and the Clinton era if not earlier. Probably back to when George Sr was living over there.
CarbineCaleb and Capt Charlie,
China is a threat militarily simply because we are not in any position to challenge them in a major showdown or war without resorting to nuclear weapons.
Despite the fact that China has "so few" nuclear weapons - they are enough - and there is no telling how far along they might be with more, or other things that we are unaware of.
If we have been unable to zero in on anything dangerous in a desert plot like Iraq - how can we even dream that we know anything substantial about what is sitting in China? China has developed one of the most effective secret services and espionage systems in modern history. They were very effective at an early stage, and they learned some hard lessons at the hands of the British and other western nations during the opium wars.
I agree with MeekAndMild. It is precisely their growing pains that might cause them to turn aggressive. A combination of their economic domination and potentially enormous military might could easily swamp us in a few short years.
Their markets are growing at an enormous rate; for example they are currently number three behind the U.S. and Japan in the auto market. But they are set to overtake Japan in this regard very soon, and we won't be far behind. While they supposedly have the second largest oil and gas reserves on earth, in the interim they will drive demand - and it's commodity market based cost - through the roof.
So what is going to happen when oil runs past $100 a barrel, and people are screaming here at home, while pressure is on to appease the Chinese to "prevent them becoming a greater threat"? What is going to give? And that is just one item, one market.
Then there are resources like shipping; it is not just Chinese goods that are drowning us and other parts of the world - it is a huge Chinese merchant fleet that is moving things around. They control a huge chunk of the global transportation system.
We've been set up for our undoing.
actually in this case they to to Vietnam to get mail order brides, to the tune of over a thousand a year right now.
VN women have been a major export item for VN for many years now
For that matter, they could just sweep into VN and take back territory that many believe to be rightfully their's anyway
BerettaCougar
New member
This is what we should do with China...
LEAVE THEM ALONE, LEAVE EVERYONE ALONE!!
After this crap in Iraq is over (which I dont see it being over for another 5 years minimum) pull all of our troops, or 90% of them out, keep some there to guard our embassy, and that goes for the entire world, pull 90% of our troops back, bring our men and women home, have them guard our borders, south and north. guard our coasts. Leave everyone else alone, stop sticking our nose where it doesnt belong, build trading partners out of countries with nuclear weapons, not enemies.
And our military should not be at the disposal of a few men in thousand dollar suits who would never and have never seen battle, We should have a vote, nation wide vote, to see if the nation as a majority supports military activity.
If a village in Africa is getting wiped out because of the lack of food, well technically we can help, but theres people here in America that need food too, we should worry about Americans going days without food, instead of spending billions on feeding others first.
LEAVE THEM ALONE, LEAVE EVERYONE ALONE!!
After this crap in Iraq is over (which I dont see it being over for another 5 years minimum) pull all of our troops, or 90% of them out, keep some there to guard our embassy, and that goes for the entire world, pull 90% of our troops back, bring our men and women home, have them guard our borders, south and north. guard our coasts. Leave everyone else alone, stop sticking our nose where it doesnt belong, build trading partners out of countries with nuclear weapons, not enemies.
And our military should not be at the disposal of a few men in thousand dollar suits who would never and have never seen battle, We should have a vote, nation wide vote, to see if the nation as a majority supports military activity.
If a village in Africa is getting wiped out because of the lack of food, well technically we can help, but theres people here in America that need food too, we should worry about Americans going days without food, instead of spending billions on feeding others first.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
About Saddam and the Kurds - that happened in the 1980's IIRC and we loved the dude then. See the pictures of Rumsefield visiting him or some other high American if my memory fails.
It's 2005 now, took us a loooong time to go save the Kurds. In 1991, we let Saddam put down the counterrevolution. IIRC, some commanders begged to help the rebels and were told no by guess who.
Saddam would still be sitting pretty if he didn't invade Kuwait and Bush II didn't get a boner to fix what his dad seems to have messed up. Quite irrationally, I might add. We found no WMD but are sitting on our butts until we eat a North Korean or Iranian nuke that they give to terrorists.
We tolerate all kinds of dictators if they don't mess with us or if they support us.
Putting ICBMs on Taiwan - why? Do you have any real understanding of missile usage. Jonathon, that kind of silliness implies that you are just spouting off rather unsophisticated emotion.
It's 2005 now, took us a loooong time to go save the Kurds. In 1991, we let Saddam put down the counterrevolution. IIRC, some commanders begged to help the rebels and were told no by guess who.
Saddam would still be sitting pretty if he didn't invade Kuwait and Bush II didn't get a boner to fix what his dad seems to have messed up. Quite irrationally, I might add. We found no WMD but are sitting on our butts until we eat a North Korean or Iranian nuke that they give to terrorists.
We tolerate all kinds of dictators if they don't mess with us or if they support us.
Putting ICBMs on Taiwan - why? Do you have any real understanding of missile usage. Jonathon, that kind of silliness implies that you are just spouting off rather unsophisticated emotion.
MeekAndMild
New member
Concerning population pressures and wars of conquest, I'd suggest a good history of Dark Age Britain or of the Islamic wars of conquest. These are not the only wars fought mostly by younger sons who had no hope of marrying at home, but are probably the most clearcut ones.
As for the Clinton/Space/China connection, that is more recent history. Here are some links to the shorter version:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/1/14/143258.shtml
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/missile/keystories.htm
http://www2.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-05/23/content_444886.htm
Concerning India: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2646017.stm
[digression]Have you ever wondered why the only Chinese kids the adoption agencies are pushing happen to be female?[/digression]
Actually, in the old time, whenever there's a war, the empror's sons were always sent to the front. We should have done the same thing. If Jr decides to go to war, his sons and daughters should be sent to the front along with sons and daughters of those senators and congressmen.
Last edited:
