I have been hunting for a few years now, about 44 or so, and I have killed my share in that time. You can be 100% certain that you are making a shot that is well within your ability to make, before you pull the trigger. There is no excuse for making an iffy shot, in hope of making a kill. Can you miss? Sure, but it should be a very rare occurrence, and if you miss it should be for a darned good reason and not because you were making a "Hail Mary" shot.
What happened to Muzzle Loaders?
- Thread starter butch50
- Start date
I have been hunting for a few years now, about 44 or so, and I have killed my share in that time. You can be 100% certain that you are making a shot that is well within your ability to make, before you pull the trigger. There is no excuse for making an iffy shot, in hope of making a kill. Can you miss? Sure, but it should be a very rare occurrence, and if you miss it should be for a darned good reason and not because you were making a "Hail Mary" shot.
When they allow single shot rifles that use a cartridge,I'll stand beside ya and yell "foul".As long as somebody is throwing powder and lead down the muzzle,I'll wish them good luck."Buffoon" or not. 
Butch,you still didn't say if you use camo or not.
Do you have any trouble lighting the fuse on that smokepole of yours?WHAT?You don't use a fuse? Aaaaarrrggg!!! What is it with hunters these days?They're all gadget drunk I tell ya.DRUNK!Why there oughta be a law.
Butch,you still didn't say if you use camo or not.
Do you have any trouble lighting the fuse on that smokepole of yours?WHAT?You don't use a fuse? Aaaaarrrggg!!! What is it with hunters these days?They're all gadget drunk I tell ya.DRUNK!Why there oughta be a law.
HOKIEHUNTER
New member
I beg to differ. my marlin 917 with a 10-40X50 scope can put 5 shot inside .5" at 100 yards regularly. over and over again i've killed groundhogs and squirrels in a single shot out to 200 yards. no i also have an ancient savage .22 lr. a classic. belonged to my granddad as a kid. great gun, but cannot hold a candle to my 917 the better bullet / powder / trigger makes me a better shooter. my skill doesn't change when i pick up one or the other, just the gun's ability.
When i pick up my Enocre it makes me a better shooter. do i still have to get close? yes. where i hunt 50 yards is a long shot so the increased range of the gun really doesn't make a difference. the Encore is much more forgiving and shoots much tighter groups than a traditional ML.
I don't know if you're a math wizz or not, but i'm an engineering student right now. One thing you learn in math classes esp. statistics is called COMPOUND error:
when you have 2 objects interfacing (gun and person) the error in the system isn't governed by whichever has more error, it's a combination of the two. the less error you have the more accurate your problem is. in our case if we have a good shooter with a good gun, guess what, THEY'RE MORE ACCURATE THAN A GOOD SHOOTER WITH A BAD GUN! it's as simple as that. so you're argument that a better gun does nothing for the shooter is BS.
and how about broadheads. if you cannot respond to the broadhead and the camo questions you might as well give up. DO NOT BOTHER responding if you can't tell me whether you carve your own broadheads out stone or not. Do you use carbon shafts? aluminum? do you buy feathers / vanes off the shelf? do you epoxy to re-fletch your arrorw? b/c none of that stuff is primitive. do you use a flashlight goin in and out of the woods? do you use a tree stand? do you wear insulated clothing? do you bring candy / lunch in a plastic bag with you? do you have any device to help drag a deer out the woods? do you wear a watch? do you use trail markers?
there are many inventions that have "bastardized" hunting. you're so caught up in the "good ole way" you miss the fact that the new stuff is helping to get the next generation into hunting. like i said before, i'm pretty new to hunting and will eventually revert to more classic style weapons, but for right now i'm learning and honing my skills. it's alot easier to learn and be confident with better equipment. so in several years when i have a steady job and hopefully some land i'm sure i'll get into kit rifles and recurve bows, but for the time being i'm hunting on public land where the competition is incredible and i'm gonna take every advantage i can.
Hokie:
I don't bow hunt. I used to, but eventually I became uneasy with the manner in which an arrow kills, so I stopped. I may return to it in the future, and if I do it will be with either a long bow or a recurve.
The real point is this: ML seasons were created to suit traditional ML rifles. The idea was that it was a separation from the centerfire rifle technology. Since the inception of the ML season however, MLs are being designed that come closer and closer to the centerfire, which is taking advantage of a season that was designed to be limited by the ability of the ML rifle as they were known at that time; out of a kind of greed for killing more deer.
I hunt public land also - and if you are willing to do some real walking, you can take advantage of the fact that the vast majority of the hunters are too lazy to work their way into the most remote areas - which is where the deer go to avoid the lazy hunters. Those lazy hunters work to your benefit by concentrating the deer into the most remote areas Have you noticed that most hunters seem to hunt within 1/4 mile of a road? Look on your map, find the largest area without access to wheels, and head for the center of it. You might bump into me, but I doubt you will bump into anyone else; I will be the one wearing blue jeans, typically a khaki shirt a blaze orange vest and a blaze orange hat.
There have been many gadgets in the past, but recent technology is becoming too good for deer hunting. Technology now is far superior to anything in the past, and every single year it jumps by leaps and bounds.
I don't bow hunt. I used to, but eventually I became uneasy with the manner in which an arrow kills, so I stopped. I may return to it in the future, and if I do it will be with either a long bow or a recurve.
The real point is this: ML seasons were created to suit traditional ML rifles. The idea was that it was a separation from the centerfire rifle technology. Since the inception of the ML season however, MLs are being designed that come closer and closer to the centerfire, which is taking advantage of a season that was designed to be limited by the ability of the ML rifle as they were known at that time; out of a kind of greed for killing more deer.
I hunt public land also - and if you are willing to do some real walking, you can take advantage of the fact that the vast majority of the hunters are too lazy to work their way into the most remote areas - which is where the deer go to avoid the lazy hunters. Those lazy hunters work to your benefit by concentrating the deer into the most remote areas Have you noticed that most hunters seem to hunt within 1/4 mile of a road? Look on your map, find the largest area without access to wheels, and head for the center of it. You might bump into me, but I doubt you will bump into anyone else; I will be the one wearing blue jeans, typically a khaki shirt a blaze orange vest and a blaze orange hat.
There have been many gadgets in the past, but recent technology is becoming too good for deer hunting. Technology now is far superior to anything in the past, and every single year it jumps by leaps and bounds.
After reading many of your "hunting" posts I realize there is no point in argueing with you. Your mind is closed and it would not matter what facts were given to you. If all hunters were like you there would be no hunting, the anti's would have outlawed the sport. But that said, I'll put in my .02.
Any season or method of hunting that is legal is OK by me. Styles or techniques that I don't like I just don't do. I don't go on rants and disparage the people that utilize those techniques nor do I try to get those method banned. Most states that have primitive weapon seasons do so to sell more licenses and to control their deer populations. In PA there are two BP seasons, One that is flintlock, open sights only; and one that is any muzzleloader with any sighting system. The latter, or for the gadget morons, fools, and diseased, is doe only and for herd control. The PGC wants more guys out in the woods. What is wrong with that? I hunt with a flintlock, should all percussion rifles be banned?
You also state that bows do not kill humanely, you obviously did not become proficient with your bow. A deer that is correctly hit with a broadhead does not know it has been killed until it faints from blood loss. Many more deer are wounded, and suffer, from gunfire than from archers.
As I told you once before, any method that gets people out in the woods is OK. The anti's just love guys like you, they love to quote your insults of hunting styles that you don't like. They use your words when trying to ban trapping or archery, "It's cheating, its not humane, its not sporting"
If I use your definition of hunting: "a sport that is based on the traditions of what once was a necessity", then all methods to legally kill game would be included. The subsistance hunters embraced every innovation that came down the road that made hunting easier. From club to spear to bows to muskets to punt guns that soon wiped out waterfowl, to the new fangled centerfire repeaters.
Lighten up, can't we all just get along?
Any season or method of hunting that is legal is OK by me. Styles or techniques that I don't like I just don't do. I don't go on rants and disparage the people that utilize those techniques nor do I try to get those method banned. Most states that have primitive weapon seasons do so to sell more licenses and to control their deer populations. In PA there are two BP seasons, One that is flintlock, open sights only; and one that is any muzzleloader with any sighting system. The latter, or for the gadget morons, fools, and diseased, is doe only and for herd control. The PGC wants more guys out in the woods. What is wrong with that? I hunt with a flintlock, should all percussion rifles be banned?
You also state that bows do not kill humanely, you obviously did not become proficient with your bow. A deer that is correctly hit with a broadhead does not know it has been killed until it faints from blood loss. Many more deer are wounded, and suffer, from gunfire than from archers.
As I told you once before, any method that gets people out in the woods is OK. The anti's just love guys like you, they love to quote your insults of hunting styles that you don't like. They use your words when trying to ban trapping or archery, "It's cheating, its not humane, its not sporting"
If I use your definition of hunting: "a sport that is based on the traditions of what once was a necessity", then all methods to legally kill game would be included. The subsistance hunters embraced every innovation that came down the road that made hunting easier. From club to spear to bows to muskets to punt guns that soon wiped out waterfowl, to the new fangled centerfire repeaters.
Lighten up, can't we all just get along?
Posting comments like that then asking people to get a long do not go hand in hand. This has turned into an outrageous flame war of people bashing others and that is just what anti-firearm people want, is for us to turn on each other.
Thank you for giving the people that we ALL hate as a WHOLE the chance to prove themselves right for saying that we are subtle and quick to anger...
Good job
My personal choice was to no longer kill deer with arrows. First and foremost you should understand that I do not have the misconception that hunting is a humane sport - it is a killing sport. It is a blood sport. Your statement that a deer that is correctly hit won't know it has been hit, is not borne out by humans who have been hit - they knew it. Can you for one instant truly imagine that you just wouldn't notice an arrow with a 1" wide broad head passing through your body? Hunters who have been hit with arrows knew they were hit with arrows. What is the first thing you do after shooting a deer with an arrow? You wait 30 minutes before tracking right? And why is that? Because a deer hit with an arrow bleeds to death, and not too quickly. So, I prefer to shoot them with a gun, killing them within seconds. But I am thinking of taking the bow back up again too - so for me it is not a big issue.
If hunters can't have honest open discussions about their sport because they are afraid that the antis are going to get excited by hearing the conversation, then everyone might as well quit talking about anything important.
Already answered in previous posts.
I am going to be gone all weekend, will pick this back up next week. Hope everyone has a good weekend.
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Lonestar.45
New member
"Most states that have primitive weapon seasons do so to sell more licenses and to control their deer populations. "
The key word being "primitive". I don't define an inline muzzleloader with plastic sabots, powder pellets, and a 3x9 scope as being "primitive", is the thing. Don't get me wrong, I think anything that gets more folks hunting and into the woods is a good thing, but let's be honest, much of it doesn't deserve a special "primitive" season.
For instance, in many places, shots over 100 yds rarely happen. What's the big difference between a 30-30 lever action at that distance, and a modern inline with powder pellets and a scope? Actually, the inline is MORE modern, being as how it was developed way way after the lever action, and will more than likely have a scope and the lever gun will not.
I'm definitely not against inlines, hi tech archery, etc., if it generates more people hunting, it is a good thing. But I am against special seasons for some of the more advanced weaponry.
The key word being "primitive". I don't define an inline muzzleloader with plastic sabots, powder pellets, and a 3x9 scope as being "primitive", is the thing. Don't get me wrong, I think anything that gets more folks hunting and into the woods is a good thing, but let's be honest, much of it doesn't deserve a special "primitive" season.
For instance, in many places, shots over 100 yds rarely happen. What's the big difference between a 30-30 lever action at that distance, and a modern inline with powder pellets and a scope? Actually, the inline is MORE modern, being as how it was developed way way after the lever action, and will more than likely have a scope and the lever gun will not.
I'm definitely not against inlines, hi tech archery, etc., if it generates more people hunting, it is a good thing. But I am against special seasons for some of the more advanced weaponry.
I have no strong feelings about what equipment others choose to use as long as it's legal in the jurisdiction they're hunting in. We have so many deer around here that any legal harvest method is fine with me. That said, I can't imagine sitting on a stump with a modern in-line across my knees and getting the same feeling about the whole experience as I get with my 1861 Springfield .58. I spend a lot more time during deer season carrying a rifle than shooting it so I've decided to carry something that gives me pleasure just from the carrying. If I really needed the meat I guess that in-line could be a necessity, but I don't and it isn't. I took my .32 muzzle loading squirrel rifle out this morning. I have several scope sighted .22s and .22 magnums which I use regularly but I just get a big kick out of hunting with the old fashioned stuff.
By the way, one of the deer I shot a few years back (with a longbow) ran about three jumps, stopped and looked around, flicked it's tail a few times and started picking acorns up again before falling down. The arrow had passed through without touching ribs on either side. THAT deer apparently wasn't in great pain but I know thats not the norm.
Steve
By the way, one of the deer I shot a few years back (with a longbow) ran about three jumps, stopped and looked around, flicked it's tail a few times and started picking acorns up again before falling down. The arrow had passed through without touching ribs on either side. THAT deer apparently wasn't in great pain but I know thats not the norm.
Steve
Mannlicher
New member
Problem is that the States did not specify 'primitive weapons only'. All BP is now is just another way to extend hunting seasons.
My take?
If someone is going to take full advantage of modern BP technology then I think they shouldn't hunt during muzzle-loading season.
The point of black-powder hunting seasons is the same as the point of bow-hunting seasons. They are designed around the idea that these hunting seasons handicap hunters significantly.
I don't agree that these extra seasons are used to manage game in any significant way. If they really want to chop the deer population, they could just extend the standard season and/or issue more tags.
The bottom line is that hunting laws and seasons aren't written in stone. If it becomes apparent that the point of muzzle-loading seasons is being circumvented, they'll disappear.
If someone is going to take full advantage of modern BP technology then I think they shouldn't hunt during muzzle-loading season.
The point of black-powder hunting seasons is the same as the point of bow-hunting seasons. They are designed around the idea that these hunting seasons handicap hunters significantly.
I don't agree that these extra seasons are used to manage game in any significant way. If they really want to chop the deer population, they could just extend the standard season and/or issue more tags.
The bottom line is that hunting laws and seasons aren't written in stone. If it becomes apparent that the point of muzzle-loading seasons is being circumvented, they'll disappear.
QUOTE butch50: "I am disgusted to see what is happenning to traditional muzzle loader rifles. They began evolving into super high technology blackpowder monstrosities after the black powder deer seasons became prevalent. The original intent of having a muzzle loader season was to create a primitive hunting season.....The hunter would be limited to shots of about 100 yards or less and not be able to reload rapidly".
Your premise is seriously flawed.....in-line muzzleloaders have been around since the 1700's, this is not new technology.
Where does this "less than a 100 yards" come from? Civil War soldiers qualified by hitting a 10" target 10 times at 200 yards. Obviously the Civil War sniper that shot Major General John Sedgwick in the face and off his horse from 500 yards didn't know his firearm was limited to 100 yards.
Geeez....You would think that with all the internet resources available, people would do a little homework and get their facts straight rather than post their personal bias's as truth.
Your premise is seriously flawed.....in-line muzzleloaders have been around since the 1700's, this is not new technology.
Where does this "less than a 100 yards" come from? Civil War soldiers qualified by hitting a 10" target 10 times at 200 yards. Obviously the Civil War sniper that shot Major General John Sedgwick in the face and off his horse from 500 yards didn't know his firearm was limited to 100 yards.
Geeez....You would think that with all the internet resources available, people would do a little homework and get their facts straight rather than post their personal bias's as truth.
Butch,
I am a hunter. I love being around hunters, but I don’t think I would like you. I don’t know,
I am judging your personality based on one thread.
I cannot stand your judgmental attitude. Your way is obviously the only way that is correct.
Hunters are having a tough time. There are fewer and fewer of us. I firmly believe that we should embrace each other, and utilize our knowledge to teach, and foster the sport, not to belittle those who don’t do it like we do.
I personally admire those who choose to make their own bows, and arrows and shoot traditional points. Have I attainted that level of skill, no, but I am working toward that! According to you I should just stop hunting until I achieve that level.
I shoot a recurve bow. That is a technologic advantage over a longbow. I guess I am wrong for that.
You never answered the question about your use of camouflage.
I walk in to my stands. I carry my stands in. I still hunt.
Do I look down on others who choose to rifle hunt from stands over feeders and utlize ATVs, no. I try to teach and encourage every rifle hunter I meet. Maybe some will become bow hunters, some will become traditional black powder shooters, some will learn to still hunt.
Until you make your own clothing, walk to your hunting area from your home, make your own powder, and make your own firearm, I suggest you get off your high horse and embrace our sport, our comradery, and use your knowledge to teach, not to judge and belittle.
My 2 cents.
Charles
I am a hunter. I love being around hunters, but I don’t think I would like you. I don’t know,
I am judging your personality based on one thread.
I cannot stand your judgmental attitude. Your way is obviously the only way that is correct.
Hunters are having a tough time. There are fewer and fewer of us. I firmly believe that we should embrace each other, and utilize our knowledge to teach, and foster the sport, not to belittle those who don’t do it like we do.
I personally admire those who choose to make their own bows, and arrows and shoot traditional points. Have I attainted that level of skill, no, but I am working toward that! According to you I should just stop hunting until I achieve that level.
I shoot a recurve bow. That is a technologic advantage over a longbow. I guess I am wrong for that.
You never answered the question about your use of camouflage.
I walk in to my stands. I carry my stands in. I still hunt.
Do I look down on others who choose to rifle hunt from stands over feeders and utlize ATVs, no. I try to teach and encourage every rifle hunter I meet. Maybe some will become bow hunters, some will become traditional black powder shooters, some will learn to still hunt.
Until you make your own clothing, walk to your hunting area from your home, make your own powder, and make your own firearm, I suggest you get off your high horse and embrace our sport, our comradery, and use your knowledge to teach, not to judge and belittle.
My 2 cents.
Charles
I would enjoy reading about this, what are your sources? Snipers making lucky shots at 500 yards do not qualify as evidence that traditional muzzleloaders are consiistenly capable of such shots.
OK. I am not running for elected office, I am criticizing a phenomenon that I think is ruining our sport.
I thought I had, but that may have been on another thread. No, I do not use camo - typically I dress in workboots, blue jeans, a khaki style shirt, a blaze orange vest and hat.
Am I abrasive? Yes. Do you know why? Because I care about our sport to the point that I am willing to irritate the crap out of people to get them to stop and look at what is happening. I am going to paste a review, along with the source of that review. Please read it and tell me that the muzzleloader season is not being, or will soon be, ruined by loophole manufacturers and slob hunters willing to take any advantage they can:
Continued next thread:
How soon will the competition for this gun heat up to the point that you can buy these kind of rilfes everywhere? Do you not think that this rifle is a loophole rifle and that the so called sportsmen using it are not loophole hunters? If this one doesn't bother you, what will? And when?
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Butch,
Thanks for the reply.
I was aware of the new Savage Muzzle Loader, it does load from the muzzle, and it has the ballistics of a modern center-fire rifle. Why should it not, it utilizes modern smokeless powder.
I also agree that shooting deer with a center-fire rifle (that is what it really is) during muzzle loading season is not what the original intent was. The approach I take is to educate others about the original intent and about hunting in general.
For me hunting is a journey not a destination.
In truth, you and I have the same goals, we just try different approaches. I do not believe that further regulations are the answer, but I have never believed that the Government fixes anything with new laws, there are always loopholes, and people who ignore them all together. (Poaching is a real problem in my neck of the woods).
I really think that the best approach is to educate the hunting populous. Some will not respond, but some will. I don't think the answer is to exclude others who think differently.
Charles
Thanks for the reply.
I was aware of the new Savage Muzzle Loader, it does load from the muzzle, and it has the ballistics of a modern center-fire rifle. Why should it not, it utilizes modern smokeless powder.
I also agree that shooting deer with a center-fire rifle (that is what it really is) during muzzle loading season is not what the original intent was. The approach I take is to educate others about the original intent and about hunting in general.
For me hunting is a journey not a destination.
In truth, you and I have the same goals, we just try different approaches. I do not believe that further regulations are the answer, but I have never believed that the Government fixes anything with new laws, there are always loopholes, and people who ignore them all together. (Poaching is a real problem in my neck of the woods).
I really think that the best approach is to educate the hunting populous. Some will not respond, but some will. I don't think the answer is to exclude others who think differently.
Charles
The use of the Savage does bother me, does the use of a Thompson Center Encore bother me, no not really, but that is just an arbitrary standard.
I do not muzzle load, but I really would like to. I think that a traditional rifle would be great fun. I have always wanted a kit where I could finish the rifle myself.
Do compound bows bother me, no. There is still a tremendous handicap on the average bow hunter.
What does bother me.
Poaching!
Slob hunters that make us all look bad!
The decline of the sport!
Marijuana fields in the woods.
Meth factories in the woods.
I have plenty of things that bother me more than a person shooting an inline with pyrodex pellets.
Charles
Here's an interesting read...
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/ODFWhtml/InfoCntrWild/Muzzleloader_regs.html
Also, the term "slob hunter" I reserve for poachers, and hunters who, in general, treat animals with no respect. I do not think this term should be used for people who use technology to hunt, and fill their legally purchased tags.
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/ODFWhtml/InfoCntrWild/Muzzleloader_regs.html
Also, the term "slob hunter" I reserve for poachers, and hunters who, in general, treat animals with no respect. I do not think this term should be used for people who use technology to hunt, and fill their legally purchased tags.