What happened to Muzzle Loaders?

..at what point does the sport disappear?...we could design guns that automatically aim themselves..

Aspen didn't you see on TV about that 'virtual deer' hunting that controlled a REAL gun that could aim at REAL deer and fire by remote supposedly for those less than fortunate to be able to get out and hunt....

That is a breach of the hunting 'contract'... If you can't be there, then you shouldn't be able to kill it. People don't seem to care much about the connection to nature anymore and are seemingly looking for that trophy buck.

I enjoy hunting occassionally, I generally eat supermarket meat, I'm not a rough and tumble guy but I hold my own in the woods and I enjoy going out into nature and living in it for a day. It's a beautiful place to be whether I get an animal or not. When it comes down to it I'd probably only save a fraction of any meat from a deer and donate the rest just because it's more deserving of someone else... but that might be why I don't hunt too much.

I see your issue with blackpowder too, I recently looked at buying a new one, and frankly the older revolvers and octagon barrels seem a lot easier to me. More simplistic and rugged. Albeit everything is synthetic now and days. I'm all for tradition, and I agree on the bow comments, I was looking for a new one of those as well but gave up because it's frustrated when you see AD after AD from someone's marketing department about a bow that boasts a 300+fps speed. Why, and yes, the bow that I wanted to buy only would have ended up costing me $1,000+ fully equipped with the gadgetry that some people feel they need.

I'd opt to buy more guns for that price. Maybe a couple Savage rifles, or a few pistols... ?

But it is what it is...
 
Hunting is a sport, not a necessity (with very rare exceptions). It is a sport that is based on the traditions of what once was a necessity. It used to be a sport primarily indulged in by rural families and some urbanites. With the shifting demographics it has become largely a sport of wealthy urbanites. Wealthy in that it does take significant dollars to hunt, in the way most urbanites go about hunting these sad and sorry days.

With the shifting demography has come a shifting hunter/consumer passion for gadgets and things to use for hunting and showing off to other consumers - a lot of keeping up with the Jones'. Does your neighbor really need that 4 wheel ATV to hunt on a 500 acre lease? Does he really need to pay $2,000 a year for that lease? Does he really need a $500 set of camo clothes to hunt from a box blind over a corn feeder? Does he really need to have a $350 corn feeder? Does he really need that $2,500 rifle to shoot white tail deer? Does he really need all of those cameras to do his scouting for him? Does he really need that $400 GPS unit? Does he really need that $600 pair of binoculars? Does he really need that $400 laser range finder? Does he really really need to carry a cell phone in the woods? Does he really need a walkie talkie? Hunting has become more about the buying of things, than the doing of things.

With the emergence of this multi-million (billions?) dollar a year consumer market have come specialized corporations that cash in on the gadget frenzy - and it is a self feeding, maniacal frenzy, of more better and cooler every hunting season. Which is, to me, always discouraging and quite often disgusting :barf: .

Used to be that you would see a couple of hunters walking out into the woods armed with inexpensive rifles or shotguns, dressed in inexpenisve clothes, and that was it. That was all there was to it. They might have had compasses and canteens, but not expensive ones. Now you see hunters driving huge 4 wheel drive trucks, pulling trailers loaded with tower stands, ATVs, Feeders, box blinds, everyting including the truck in camo pattern and all kinds of just plain useless, needless, brainless, crap.

The primitive weapon seasons were intended to allow hunters a short period of time to hunt primitively, protected from all the gadgets and gadget morons out there. But, the corporations saw another market - and the technology creep was on. Look at the evolution of bows - from long bows and recurves, to these incredibly over-engineered machines that are not really bows anymore, but qualify anyway for bow season. Muzzle loaders that are so sophisticated that comparing them with traditional muzzloaders isn't possible. And the buffoons that want to take advantage of the primitive seasons without hunting primitively are gobbling these abominations up like kids eating candy. If you are hunting with a modern muzzle loader or compound bow during primitive seasons, and do not realize that you are a loop hole hunter, then take another long hard look at yourself and prepare to be disgusted by the sight. If, on the other hand, you are using these modern primitive contraptions only during regular season because they provide a limit on your capabilities over what is otherwise legal during that season, then more power to you and glad to meet you.

Incredibly the people who are the most caught up in this consumer buzz don't even recognize that they have become infected with a disease. Too bad what is happening to hunting. Too bad for the people who don't know what they are doing wrong, and are not capable of understanding what they are missing. Too bad that hunting in America has become a corporate enterprise and that so many hunters have become the prize fools of the hunting industry profit machine.

Rant off, flame suit on
 
Wow... anyone that doesn't do it your way gets the following from you:
butch50 said:
gadget morons
butch50 said:
And the buffoons that want to take advantage of the primitive seasons
butch50 said:
take another long hard look at yourself and prepare to be disgusted by the sight.
butch50 said:
they have become infected with a disease.
butch50 said:
so many hunters have become the prize fools
If you want to be primitive, why don't you get a spear? Why use a firearm at all? Oh that's right, because it's more efficient, easier, and helps guarantee success.

Do you use any camo? If so, why? Why don't you make your own? Sew some foliage into your animal skins instead.

Do you use any technology to help you during your hunt? I sure hope not, I wouldn't want you to be a hypocrite.

When your done getting over yourself - you can then take a look at all of the techology YOU take advantage of even when you think your doing it the "primitive" way.

Then, hopefully you'll apologize to everyone that doesn't walk into the woods looking like this:
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Trip, if the shoe fits and pinches, then go ahead and wear it with pride.

Your argument to go back to throwing rocks doesn't wash. The primitive seasons are based upon the primitive techniques used in North America during the frontier days, not the stone age - they were specifically designed for bows and muzzle loaders.

You can take that same argument technique to the other extreme and ask why not use every single advantage that technology can possibly provide? How about infra-red goggles, hey why not electronic amplifying hearing devices too? What about live sattelite imagery transmitted to a hand held locator? How about you just log onto a website and shoot your deer from your living room and have the meat packaged up and shipped to you? Sound ridiculous? Just as your argument going the other way does.

I really like that picture, that is a man I would be proud to go hunting with, and I have no doubt I would learn a lot from - where can I get a copy?
 
More than once you've dodged the question regarding whether or not you use any technology at all.

Whatever butch, I don't hunt with a muzzleloader. I just felt your holier than thou attitude was ridiculous.

butch50 said:
You can take that same argument technique to the other extreme
That was exactly my point. You argued to one extreme (remember the gadget morons?) and so I went to the other to point out how ridiculous and rude you are.

I'm done, enjoy your misery ;)
 
...when I need a diversion from today's stupidity in the sporting world, I pull out an old Sports Afield Hunting or Fishing Annual from the 40s or 50s or so and enjoy a littlie lost paradise adventure with sportsmen such as Elmer Keith, Col. Townsend Whelen, Ted Trueblood, Pete Brown, Howard Hill, Ben Pearson, Ed Zern, George Heinhold and many others....it's like seeing an awful sitcom today and then watching Andy Grifith or Dick Van Dyke...awww..refreshing....
 
Trip, your argument isn't an argument at all. You are apparently angry and responding without logic.

That's good, because maybe now that you are angry, you will start thinking hard about the subject. If you do, then you might start to realize that hunting is quickly degenerating because of a mass of brainwashed consumer gadget buyers who think they are pursuing a sport, when in fact they are ruining the sport.

As for what technology do I use? A traditional .50 caliber muzzle loader, Hawken style, with round ball and gasp actual black powder. I use it during blackpowder and rifle season. I do drive my truck to the hunting area, then walk in a long long ways. I used a compass and a map when first exploring the area, but have it pretty well mapped out in my head now so I don't bother with those anymore. Oh, and a sharp knife. Once in a while during the rifle season I will switch over to my 12 gauge slug gun, that's it for technology. I have been considering a long bow for bow season, but haven't actually made one yet......
 
I have been considering a long bow for bow season, but haven't actually made one yet......

well you have fun with that Mr. Crockett, but for me I'm stickin to what works the best for a novice...

shoot while we're at hiking has become something disgusting with the advent of camel packs, hiking shoes, etc...
Shoot, if you're not gettin around on horse and carriage you're not living traditionally...
and how many of those original hunters used computers? do you make your own black powder too???

look you don't like the way things are goin, buy some land and hunt that land by yourself with your own "traditional" equipment. but since my hunting doesn't affect you at all, you have no right to say anything at all. In fact a portion of the amount I pay on those expensive gadgets I buy and all those hunting fees I pay for the right to hunt go to improve the quality of hunting for all of us. plus me buying a $500 muzzle-loader from TC gives them a little extra dime in their pocket to give to a PAC (that's political action committee if you didn't know) to make sure some liberal bastards don't restrict my gun ownership / hunting rights.
 
I can only contest to the ability of modern day equipment to easily dispatch any game reliably and properly. Primitive manners may sometimes be less than humane or quick. There is a way to be primitive without being cruel.
 
plus me buying a $500 muzzle-loader from TC gives them a little extra dime in their pocket to give to a PAC (that's political action committee if you didn't know) to make sure some liberal bastards don't restrict my gun ownership / hunting rights.
Brilliant, you have reduced your argument down to gibberish, all by yourself. Quite lovely.

I can only contest to the ability of modern day equipment to easily dispatch any game reliably and properly. Primitive manners may sometimes be less than humane or quick. There is a way to be primitive without being cruel.
Humane kills come from skill, not the equipment. Bows do not make humane kills. Relatively speaking, a well placed shot from a firearm is as humane as hunting gets.
 
I don't know about your state, but up here it's beneficial for our hunter's to have modern day firearms if it's something else that helps them because honestly we have some pretty stupid people out in our woods.

We get lots of people from other states with one-day hunting permits who feel they 'own' our land and are mostly of the yuppy type that order one of everything from the Cabela's catalog. There are others around here that are avid hunters and keep it simplistic.

By equipment I'm referring to the ability of newer bullet technology, accurized (sp) triggers and weapons, scope technology, bow technology and whatever. ALL lead to the less error the human can make and blame it on the equipment. Yes I understand it takes skill, I've been shooting since I was a little kid and still can't bullseyes ALL day. We're only human, and no matter what SKILL you have you can still mess up, and wouldn't it be better to have a quicker, more accurate follow up shot at 100 yards with a scope, and a bullet you KNOW is accurate by today's factory load standards, than have an inconsistent bullet, a broken scope, or bent iron sight?

I'm just saying technology is an 'enabler' sometimes a crutch. It enhances God given talent and skill. If someone sucks, they are going to suck no matter what technology is given, like my friend... he couldn't shoot a bow accurately to save his life he just doesn't have that talent.

Hope that clarifies things, I'm sure the OP will close down this thread anyhow because it's just turned into a nasty flame war over one guys interpretation of logic over blackpowder firearms. If anything he's snickering and grinin' at us trying to explain ourselves to each other through this witch hunt.
 
I'm just saying technology is an 'enabler' sometimes a crutch.
Muzzleloader seasons were specifically created for traditional muzzleloader guns. The seasons were made and designed just for them. What has happened to MLs since the seasons became popular is that corporations have competed with each other to gain more sales. But they have taken the spirit of the law and violated it exactly the way an attorney will violate the spirit of the law by arguing the letter of the law. Hunters who use these loophole guns are violating the spirit of the season, out of small mindedness.

Using modern MLs during centerfire season is great, it is awesome, it means you are providing the deer with an extra edge. That takes guts and spirit to do. Using them during ML season takes just the opposite.
 
I know what you mean. "Gadgetitis" has infected everything in hunting. But by the same token, there are many dozens more "traditional" muzzleloaders available on the market now too than there were 20 or 30 years ago, so it's not all bad.

I bought a first class compound bow in 1991 or so and got into archery. I kept up with the new trends for a few years, then just quit reading all the archery mags and going into the bow shops, and just hunted. Now, I go into Cabelas, and I don't recognize some of the new sights and other gadgets. So much has changed in the last few years.

I have a great uncle who is 75 yrs old. He's been bowhunting with the same recurve now since the 50's. No sights, about 70lbs pull. Last year, he shot 3 deer at 8 yds (that's how close he builds his brush blind to his feeder because his eyesight isn't so good anymore). I don't think he even knows what a fiberoptic sight is or what it's used for. When I get a case of the "gadgetitis", I think about him, put the gadgets back on the store shelf, and just go hunt.
 
my father and i used to shoot comp muzzle loaders and well he still does he shoot a custom built flint lock that he assembled with a duglas barrel its a 54 cal and the he has a smooth bore flint in the same 28 ga. we both have shoot the nmla and i placed 1st like 3 years in youth when i was 9/10/11
we used to shoot at fort hartfort muzzle loaders association and went to friendship indiana every year ...i shot a 45 cal thomson with duglas barrel percusion
 
I agree with folks about high tech archery and black powder guns. Black powder in line guns are about finding loop holes.


Interestingly in Australia where there is no black powder season no one bothers about these new high tech muzzle loaders and someone who wants a muzzle loader buys an authentic one.
 
yeah

thinking back when my father got me into it most peopel didn't know what black powder rifles were lol they were not known to most people. i think our old club might have a website one sec
 
yeah they do

fort hartford muzzle loaders my father is prob in there some were he come up with the burning powder and haveing fun slogan might have pic of me dunno
 
This is funny! I hear so much talk about making humane kills. There are better bows and black powder rifles being made today. But they are bad because they are better and more accurate :D :D :D . Hay you only get one shot with a bow and black powder rifle. :D :D :D.
 
This is funny! I hear so much talk about making humane kills. There are better bows and black powder rifles being made today. But they are bad because they are better and more accurate . Hay you only get one shot with a bow and black powder rifle.

No matter what you are shooting, bow, muzzleloader, bolt/lever action, semi-auto - if you are not 100% sure of a clean one shot kill, then you should not be taking a shot at all, until you are 100% sure of it. The precision of the gun can not make up for the lack of skill of the shooter, or the lack of patience and skill of the hunter to get close enough to shoot within his personal skill range.
 
What about the new design in muzzel loader bullets and broadheads for bows? should we use flint rock and round balls?

You are never 100% sure of a kill till it happens.
 
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