What am I doing wrong......

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Erno86 said:
That's where military & police firearms trainer, Paul Sooch's Zen tactic move comes in {that I discussed previously on this thread,}
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What you wrote was:
Erno86 said:
To keep from anticipating the shot: Breathe, relax while keeping a firm grip on the gun {not shaking firm,} and do a Zen tactic of saying wait...wait...wait...silently in you're mind; while pressing the trigger straight back. Treat your trigger finger as it's own entity. Besides dry-firing...you can practice the trigger press with a clicking ball point pen.
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And that essentially gets you the surprise break. The saying wait ... wait... wait...silently in you're mind is the functional equivalent of the concentrated focus on the front sight. It's like a mantra that occupies the mind so you're not thinking about the gun firing -- while you're pressing the trigger straight back until the gun does fire.

Whether the drill is "wait...wait...wait.. pressing...bang" or "front sight...front sight...front sight...pressing...bang" it's still a surprise break. And however it's done, when it comes to having to shoot quickly it needs to be practiced to the point of being reflexive, with the interval of uncertainty becoming vanishingly short.

Consider how we learn a physical skill.

  • In learning a physical skill, we all go through a four step process:

    • unconscious incompetence, we can't do something and we don't even know how to do it;

    • conscious incompetence, we can't physically do something even though we know in our mind how to do it;

    • conscious competence, we know how to do something but can only do it right if we concentrate on doing it properly; and

    • unconscious competence, at this final stage we know how to do something and can do it reflexively (as second nature) on demand without having to think about it.

  • To get to the third stage, you need to think through the physical task consciously in order to do it perfectly. You need to start slow; one must walk before he can run. The key here is going slow so that you can perform each repetition properly and smoothly. You are trying to program your body to perform each of the components of the task properly and efficiently. As the programing takes, you get smoother; and as you get smoother you get more efficient and more sure, and therefore, faster.

  • I have in fact seen this over and over, both in the classes I've been in and with students that I've helped train. Start slow, consciously doing the physical act smoothly. You start to get smooth, and as you get smooth your pace will start to pick up. And about now, you will have reached the stage of conscious competence. You can do something properly and well as long as you think about it.

  • To go from conscious competence to the final stage, unconscious competence, is usually thought to take around 5,000 good repetitions. The good news is that dry practice will count. The bad news is that poor repetitions don't count and can set you back. You need to work at this to get good.

  • If one has reached the stage of unconscious competence as far as trigger control is concerned, he will be able to consistently execute a proper, controlled trigger press quickly and without conscious thought. Of course one needs to practice regularly and properly to maintain proficiency, but it's easier to maintain it once achieved than it was to first achieve it.
 
pax, I usually wouldn't say much over a comment such as yours but, I think the way another person spends their money isn't really your business. I do agree a training class would have helped but, buying or not buying handguns isn't the issue. Just the lack of experience.

A trigger should never surprise you when it breaks. The best shots in the world don't live by the "surprise". Nor does anyone that actually wants to hit something past 30 feet. A trigger can and should be pulled with complete concentration on the target. Your eyes should never close and, you follow through. If done correctly, you watch the round print in the target.

I'm not suggesting one should jerk either. I am saying that gently squeezing until the thing finally breaks, surprising you, is not trigger control. It promotes flinching. Perfect trigger control is a deliberate, unconscious process. Not a gamble. I don't know the technical terms used to properly describe it. Only how to do it. God Bless
 
WVmtn,

Pardon -- I was simply responding to WVsig's point that classes cost money and resources. That was all.

The OP is unhappy that he can't hit his target, and he wants to know what is wrong. No matter how snarky my original post, it is not unreasonable to suggest that what is wrong is that he doesn't know how to hit his target, and that he may want to invest in some training to fix that. WVsig's point was that OP might not have the resources to invest, & I responded to that point.

Of course, he can spend his money however he wants. That's the whole fun of the thing!

pax
 
For the record pax, I was referring to your first post where you insinuated the OP's problem was buying 8 pistols, instead of one pistol and a class. ;) It had nothing to do with your post to WVsig. God Bless
 
What has been working for me to improve my shooting is what's been mentioned numerous times: focus on that sight alignment. If the sights are lined up and stay that way until the moment the cartridge goes off, you WILL hit what you are pointing at. Even the slightest movement of the sights out of proper alignment with each other- and I mean amazingly slight- usually at the very, very last moment, will throw the bullet off considerably. Everything else, and there's a lot of good advice here, not all of which works for everyone unfortunately, is all just so that you can do that. You have to find out what works for you to freeze that sight alignment rock solid all the way through the shot. Soon enough you'll detect when you're not doing that, how the gun is moving, and you can correct it, mainly by focusing even harder on the sights (that's where the "surprise" break comes in). A coach makes the process a lot faster, but you can do it yourself with patience and thoughtful analysis. I'm no expert shot by any means, but when I successfully do that, I shoot like one.
 
In other words, while you don't know exactly when the pistol will fire, you will know when the pistol will fire within such a short interval that you will be approaching asymptotically knowledge of exactly when the pistol will fire.
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These things seem very mutually exclusive...

You can't not know and yet do know at the same time.


That combined with the post about competence levels...


I don't think its really a surprise break any longer when you have reached the point that the time between the start of the press and the break is so small as to be "practically" known when the gun will fire...

Basically, the "surprise break" technique is a method of reducing flinching and uneven "jerking" trigger control and teaching proper even pull and control.

Its a good way to teach new shooters and to reboot experienced shooters who have bad habits.

"Surprise break" is also best when paired with intense front sight focus, as it takes your mind off the trigger and when it will break, at least to some extent.


Once you reach the final stage, its no longer a "surprise break"... Its "mastered trigger control"... You can keep calling it a surprise break, or a "compressed surprise break" but by the final stage, maybe even the third one... you know the trigger is going to break within a barely perceivable fraction of time from the moment you begin the pull.


The only times I have truly experienced surprise at a trigger break is on very light triggers that I was not familiar with.

Other times, no matter how slowly I pull the trigger, once I have learned the feel of that trigger, I know fairly accurately when the break will happen.


At best I think "surprise break" is a bit of a misnomer... especially when the speed is ramped up.
 
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marine6680 said:
...you know the trigger is going to break within a barely perceivable fraction of time from the moment you begin the pull....
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That is exactly right.

marine6680 said:
...once I have learned the feel of that trigger, I know fairly accurately when the break will happen...
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And again that is an accurate way to describe it. It's not quite the same thing, however, as knowing "exactly" when the gun will fire.

WVMountaineer said:
...The best shots in the world don't live by the "surprise". Nor does anyone that actually wants to hit something past 30 feet....
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On the other hand, Charles Askins, Jr., among his other accomplishments, was a champion Bullseye competitor. Here's how he describes the correct trigger press (Askins, Charles, Jr., The Art of Handgun Shooting, A. S. Barnes and Company, 1941, pg 41):
...Eventually the steadily increasing pressure on the sear fires the gun, theoretically while the front sight is directly in line with the bullseye....
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And that's pretty much how we describe the surprise break -- a steadily increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun fires.
 
WVmountaineer,

Please understand, I did not insinuate anything. I flat-out said that the reason he could not hit his target was that he had not been taught how to do so.

There is no negative judgment here from me. It was simply an answer to the question. He wanted to know what was wrong and why he could not hit his target and my answer was, because he has not been taught effectively how to hit his target.

Words on the Internet are a strange thing. Often people hear negativity or unpleasantness where there really is none intended. Please trust me, this is one of those cases.

All I said was that the best thing he could do if he wanted to know how to hit a target would be to seek out competent instruction.

Personally, I don't think anybody can easily learn to shoot from reading words on screen, not any more than one could learn how to water ski or fly a kite that way. someone who is very stubborn, very intuitive in the physical sense, and has access to excellent writing might, perhaps, sometimes, be an exception to that general rule. (But... of course there is no exception to the rule that everyone wants to be the exception to the rule!)

After 15 years of hard work writing, editing, and teaching firearms use professionally, that is my opinion both as a writer and as a firearms instructor. Of course I could be wrong.

Also... for the OP. Run a Google search for

tae site:corneredcat.com

That should help, some. But not as much as a class from a qualified, competent instructor.

pax
 
I still think its a bit of a misnomer to call it a surprise break, when you have gotten to the point of being able to pull the trigger smoothly at speed.

In the end, proper trigger control is important.


So I wonder where the OP went...
 
Pax, I guess I can sum it up saying the same things. Internet words are fickle and taken at face value. Judgemental was a term that probably didn't fit my description of your post any better than the way you expressed yourself in the first post. I don't think you are a bad person or meant Ill will.

I agree marine. I too believe it mislabeling too say surprise. No where does a surprise seem good or lend to good results in accuracy in my experience. I think it boils down to being no good way to describe it in words other than to label it trigger control. God Bless
 
WVMountaineer said:
...I agree marine. I too believe it mislabeling too say surprise. No where does a surprise seem good or lend to good results in accuracy in my experience. I think it boils down to being no good way to describe it in words other than to label it trigger control.....
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Yes, "surprise" doesn't seem like a particularly good word to use in this context. But having helped teach hundreds of complete beginners, it is a very useful and effective way to describe things for the purposes of teaching what trigger control means.

The words "trigger control" are not descriptive. Saying "trigger control" to a beginner really tells him nothing he can model his actions on. It doesn't tell him in any way that relates to the physical act what he needs to do.

However, with some demonstration and coaching he can understand the distinction between pulling the trigger to make the gun fire and a steadily increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun does fire. But beginners tend to be uncomfortable with the latter because as they do that consciously they don't know exactly when the gun will fire. They get impatient as they increase the pressure on the trigger. They want to fire the gun NOW. And of course that will jerk the gun off target.

So conceptualizing the process as the "surprise break" gives beginners a way to intellectually understand the physical process. It therefore helps them learn in a way that them consciously practice it repeatedly.
 
No where does a surprise seem good or lend to good results in accuracy in my experience. I think it boils down to being no good way to describe it in words other than to label it trigger control.
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I guess it depends on what the shooter is focusing on when DESCRIBING what's going on...

If you've tried to have a smooth, proper trigger release but aren't waiting for (i.e., focusing on ) the trigger to release the action (hammer or striker), and are focused (as you should be) on the sights -- the release could come as a surprise: it just happens.

That is still trigger control -- but described differently.

All parties here, it seems to me, are describing the same PROCESS, but focusing on different parts of the larger process when describing how to get there from here. I'm not sure they're really disagreeing with what must be done, but aren't using the same terminology. The result can be the same.
 
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OP,why don't you post some pictures of your groups?
All's you told,the shots are "to the left" and you have eight hand guns.
For all we know you're getting 5" groups only nine o'clock of dead center.
Should that be the case then Nature is trying to tell you something.Just drift the sights and move on.
There are many here among us who don't have a guru or even a gunsmith and yet can handle a gun and are respectable shots.Paying a talking head so that he
tells you how to shoot should be your choice.And how many guns you own,your
business.
 
May I add...it's important to note how the rifle or pistol tracks at the moment when the shot breaks, recoil impulse --- when the barrel rises & falls --- which should have the barrel & sights returned and aligned at the original sight picture --- This may not happen with a heavy recoiling gun {especially when the gun is mounted on some sort of rest,} that can knock you around a little bit.

Calling your shots {telling yourself or somebody where your sight picture was at the time the shot broke.} You confirm it, by looking at the result on target paper. This method helps stymie a certain kind of flinch {closing both eyes at the time the shot breaks.}

Accept the wobble of the sight picture...the wobble radius will get smaller with constant practice. Don't try to snatch the shot....which tends to have a shooter jerk the trigger, the instant the sight picture crosses the bullseye.
 
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Ignition Override said:
Balance a round on the gun while using snapcaps?
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No, please don't.

If you want to try balancing something on the gun while dry firing, use a coin or something similar. But make sure that there is no live ammunition anywhere around when doing dry practice.
 
Dominant eye?

Having been duly chastised for suggesting a patently unwise way of determining Zodiak's dominant eye, I still wonder if the substance of post 22 has any value?

A shooter whose dominant eye is NOT the eye lined up with the gun's sights may well shoot continuously off to one side. Conflict between the eye lined up with the sights and the dominant eye may induce double vision. If the second image is lined up with the sights, instead of the proper view, you will consistently shoot to one side.

Try this: Block or blur the view of one eye. Cut a circular piece of paper about the same size as your safety/shooting glasses lens and put it over one of your your shooting glasses lenses (it does not mater which, you just want to eliminate the potential for double vision). Closing one eye is expedient, but we don't want your attention diverted from the aiming and triggering processes.

Good luck. I look with anticipation to your report on this experiment.

Lost Sheep
 
Besides the obvious of me being a lousy shot
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Not that you haven't gotten more advice than you can absorb already, and not that I don't appreciate the humor of self deprecation..but don't take your performance too seriously right now. What I think you'll benefit from the most is to do what may be the very hardest thing of all to do--whether it be in playing pool, playing golf or shooting. That is to let go of "how well you're doing". Seriously...billiards is the best example I can think of, besides shooting, where it seems every American man assumes he should somehow be able to 'do this'. It's as though we are utterly incapable of learning anything about shooting or pool, because we have a short chunk of DNA that says we should have been born with the skill. We weren't.

This is probably a bit 'out there', but you're actually not a lousy shot. Trust me, if you can honestly say "you're shooting to the left", that means you have some consistency. It may not seem like useful consistency, but it means you're probably doing (and therefore capable of doing) the same thing repeatedly. And here's my Big Point:

In the shooting sports it's common to hear the phrase "Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent." What's the meaning? It's simple: practice can be just as bad as it is good, and I'd say that, without a good coach, chances are in favor of it being bad. Going to the range to 'practice' for many shooters means going to the range to make permanent debilitating habits. It's a waste of ammo and money, but worse, it pretty much confirms for the shooter...I stink. It's unfortunate, because they don't stink.

So, it was said above and unfortunately it's true: less guns, a little training. All I can say to convince you is this: I've been shooting since 1965, and I didn't learn to shoot until about 2007. My Dad taught me safety, but he didn't teach me how to shoot. My shooting made NO progress for FORTY years, until I had $300 worth of training and began using dry fire. In two weeks, I learned more and had more fun than in the previous 4 decades. Do you think my ego took a beating? Yes, thankfully.
 
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Yes... Teaching a new shooter to not anticipate the shot is difficult, and labeling it a surprise may help them understand the concept better.
 
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