What am I doing wrong......

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Get a grip master to strengthen EACH finger on both hands.. also, get a laser for dry firing, it will help you know when you are making a mistake while dry firing. Use the pad of your finger on the trigger.

A lesson or two will help if you can find a good instructor in your area.
 
Which eye are you using?

Stand in front of a friend and have him cover up one of his eyes. With your finger point at your friend's uncovered eye. Have your friend tell you which of your eyes was lined up with your finger.

(Edit: reference to using a gun has been removed. My thanks to Frank Ettin)

That is your dominant eye.

If a shooter lines up the eye on the side of the hand that is aiming the gun, this is the "normal" way to shoot. Dominant hand and dominant eye on the same side and the dominant eye lined up with the sights. A shooter whose dominant eye is NOT the eye lined up with the gun's sights may well be continuously off to one side. (Double vision under the influence of (Conflict between the eye lined up with the sights and the dominant eye may induce double vision. If the second image is lined up with the sights, instead of the proper view, you will consistently shoot to one side.

Second way to check this is to block the view of one eye. Cut a circular piece of paper about the same size as your safety/shooting glasses lens and put it behind one of your your shooting glasses lenses (id does not mater which, you just want to eliminate the potential for double vision). Closing one eye is expedient, but we don't want your attention diverted from the aiming and triggering processes.

If you block the non-dominant eye, you will probably get better groups, even if it is the opposite of your dominant hand. This was my experience. But it will not matter which eye you block, even if you don't know which eye is dominant.

Good luck. I look with anticipation to your report on this experiment.

Lost Sheep
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p.s. Shooting with one hand and the opposite eye is not uncommon, so if you do, don't worry about it. Some schools of thought demand that if you shoot with the left hand, you aim with the left eye and if you switch to the right hand, use the right eye. I believe this is archaic, but some people still believe it. It does have some practical support, though, as in shooting around the side of a barrier exposing less of your head and body to return fire and to view.
 
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Lost Sheep said:
Stand in front of a friend and have him cover up one of his eyes. With an UNLOADED gun (or using just your finger) point...
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NO! Bad idea and a bad practice. Never do anything of the sort. Never let the muzzle of your gun cover anything you aren't willing to destroy. Don't even come close to unsafe practices. There's an old bit of doggerel:

Never, ever let your gun
Pointed be at anyone.​
That the gun unloaded be
Matters not the least to me.​

There are good ways to determine your dominant eye without pointing a gun at someone. This short article might be helpful. And you might also be interested in this thread on the subject.
 
Interestingly, in several states it is against the law to point any gun, loaded or not, at any other person -- regardless of one's reason for doing so (and yes, these laws are distinct from laws about deliberately criminal assault). Too many gun owners don't seem to be aware of it, but it's on the books for a reason.

pax
 
Pax said:
Yeah.

It's because you've bought eight handguns, instead of one handgun and a good class.

pax
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It is not always that simple or easy to get quality training. I live in an area where there is not a good training center within 2 hours. There are a few local trainers but I would not give my money to them. There is a Vickers guy about 2 hours from me who runs classes but it is a spotty schedule. These days it is not always easy as a new shooter to determine who is offering "quality" training. There has been a explosion of poor to mediocre training in the past 5 years. Newer shooters often do not know how to determine good from bad training schools.

I ended up having to travel 4 hours each way and pay for a hotel room for 2 nights in order to get quality training earlier this year. That is a lot of time and effort. Time and $$ that everyone does not have. We all know that buying guns only take $$$ and if you buy smart sometimes not that much $$.

Maybe instead of a snarky comment you might offer a more constructive post. I know you are staff here and are a respected trainer and shooter but it seems like this response is subpar. :rolleyes:

Maybe elaborating the value of training would be more helpful. Explaining how a solid foundation is needed in order to build a house etc....

In the end we agree that training is great. I personally wish I had started going to training earlier in my shooting life but I am also a firm believer that it is not necessary. One can become a proficient shooter without ever taking a class but good training speeds up the process.

So to the OP where are you located? If we know where you are maybe we can make some recommendations on solid training in your area. Edit: I see you are in Chicago. That might make it a bit tougher but I believe someone ill chime in with a quality trainer in your area.

PS don't use that target unless you are shooting your pistols from a bullseye stance and grip. That is what it was designed around. That is what it corrects it has very little bearing on modern 2 had combat shooting.
 
PS don't use that target unless you are shooting your pistols from a bullseye stance and grip. That is what it was designed around. That is what it corrects it has very little bearing on modern 2 had combat shooting.
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Yes, and no... I agree that the chart is intended for BULLSEYE shooters, but most folks don't do a two-handed hold properly either, and some of the "error consequences" shown on the chart MAY apply to many shooters using two-handed grips, especially if they're doing two-handed poorly.

Getting a two-handed grip right is arguably a first step. That said, Brian Eno's book "Practical Shooting -- Beyond Fundamentals" might be an inexpensive way to start TRYING to learn to do it right. Lots of photos and a lot of good advice, including grip photos. Amazon offers a Kindle edition for under $10, and you might be able to find a paperback, used, for under $25. That's cheap compared to some alternatives. Enos and some buddies sort of revolutionized competitive shooting some years back, and their methods are still very well-regarded.

I agree with your position on training, and agree that it's very difficult to find in some places -- and just because someone is a "trainer" doesn't mean that he or she will be helpful. A bunch of us lucked out with a guy in the area who offers small group and individual classes. (He has spent several years working with Special Ops troops at Ft. Bragg, and is a trainer and consultant to other units and indivdiuals) A few years back He shot a couple of times at our IDPA club (indoor) matches and was simply amazing to watch. Unlike some instructors. he is more focused on helping YOU shoot better than showing you how well he does it or proving to you that he is THE MAN! (I've watched him beautifully navigate around some pretty touchy egos!). The money I spent for one of his small group classes (IDPA club members) was the best money I've ever spent for a firearms related purchase.

That instructor was Larry Brown, and he doesn't just work with pistols -- I found this on the 'net: http://events.r20.constantcontact.com/register/event;jsessionid=E0C08EC78E41541F1683086A9729475C.worker_registrant?llr=7k8895dab&oeidk=a07e62306h162ad7b31
 
I agree with get training. You bought 8 pistols it is time to learn the correct way to shoot them. I would do it now before you get stuck in bad habits. I still will take a class from time to time and I have shot pistols for years. It is to work the bugs out and be a better combat shooter. Charts video's books snap caps are good tools but your form your grip is what will make you a better shooter. Only a pro can look at you and how you do it to get you where you want to be.
 
I had your problem.

"Pull the trigger back to your chest" was the advice that cured me.

Professional training wouldn't hurt as it's better to learn right the first time than to unlearn mistakes over time..

Happy shooting
 
WVsig,

May have sounded snarky, but I sure wasn't wrong.

"Take a class" was the most helpful and best advice I could give the guy in this venue. No sense in adding to the confusion in-thread, with competing voices each telling him to do the exact opposite of something someone else just said. :D By being short and clear, my excellent advice stood out from the rest of the crowd.

Why soften it by giving him less than the best I had to offer?

You're right about the resources and effort involved in finding a good class. But with 8 pistols purchased in just a few months, it's safe to assume our OP has the resources to invest in himself and his training.

Buying just one less gun would have left him enough spare cash to pay for a 2-day class fee from some of the finest trainers in the country (Hayes, Ayoob, Givens, Farnam all fall well under the one-pistol price range), with enough money left over for ammo during class.

Buying two or three fewer pistols would have left him with enough money to pay hotel and travel costs assuming an overnight stay somewhere, still with enough money left over to buy more ammo to practice after class too.

That still leaves our guy with five or six pistols to play with, which may not be as fun as having eight pistols, but is sure a lot more fun than not knowing how to hit your target in the first place.

And it's also easier to research one trainer than it is to sort through conflicting and sometimes dangerous advice from random strangers on the internet -- people he hasn't seen shoot and doesn't know even by reputation. That's a tough job for a new shooter.

I do regret the emotional impact of my first post, for what it's worth. Was trying to catch his attention in a playful way, and I can see it fell flat. It's just so very painful to watch someone go down an unfortunate road when he really doesn't have to.

So here's my best non-snarky advice for the OP: Take. A. Good. Class. Get your diagnosis in person and then apply that diagnosis while you receive in-person feedback from someone who can see exactly what you're doing.

pax
 
So here's my best non-snarky advice for the OP: Take. A. Good. Class. Get your diagnosis in person and then apply that diagnosis while you receive in-person feedback from someone who can see exactly what you're doing.
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Outstanding advice! ;)
 
Good advice in these posts. I make it a point to keep the sights lined up all the way until the recoil physically moves them and visualize, as if "thought guiding" the bullet to the target. I think what I just said pretty much describes "focus". :-)

You may also have a death grip going on. When I first started shooting pistols a lot, that's what I did until a buddy noticed and had me practice going from death grip to limp writing. That helped me immensely. Note, though, that (in general) you have to keep in mind you WILL need to adjust your grip tension as calibers increase and/or barrel lengths decrease.
 
If you have problems hitting the A zone with centerfires --- stop --- and work them out with reduced loads or a 22 rimfire or air pistol.

If you shoot any of the hand cannons like my 454 Super Redhawk, you better hold on tight with both hands; with 100% tension.

I've given up on the 60/40% ratio and usually hold with 100% tension, cuz that's probably the percent ratio you'll be holding if your involved in a gunfight. Some shooters will hold 100% tension and back-off 10%.

I'm not a firm believer in Jeff Cooper's "surprise break," because you should know when the sear is about to trip --- especially in a defensive situation

Lock your wrists with the hands pointed downwards at a 45 degree angle, so you won't break your wrists downwards while breaking the shot.

Try to teach your subconscious to pull the trigger, so all you do is hold and aim with the with the sights, and let your subconscious pull the trigger; though it might take around 50,000 rounds to accomplish this method.

Any "limp wristing," will possibly cause a stovepipe jam in semi auto pistols.
 
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Erno86 said:
...I'm not a firm believer in Jeff Cooper's "surprise break," because you should know when the sear is about to trip --- especially in a gunfight...
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And that will still result in jerking the trigger and jerking the gun off target. That is why it's so important to diligently practice the surprise break until it becomes reflexive and done quickly without conscious thought.

Here's an interesting video in which Jeff Cooper explains the compressed surprise break. The idea is that if you apply a smooth, continuously increasing pressure to the trigger, the gun will eventually fire without jerking off target. Applying that smooth, continuously increasing pressure to the trigger you are not trying to make the gun fire at a particular instant in time. You will not know exactly when, as you increase pressure on the trigger, the gun will fire.

But as you practice (perfectly) and develop the facility to reflexively (without conscious thought) apply a smooth, continuously increasing pressure to the trigger the time interval between beginning to press and the shot breaking gets progressively shorter until it become indistinguishable from being instantaneous. And that is the compressed surprise break.
 
"I understand the concept of the surprise break {both compressed and open ended}. I learned under the watchful eye of Col. Cooper himself.

However, when shooting fast, the interval into which the trigger press is 'compressed' is so quick that I do know "exactly" in the sense that if I were going to flinch, I would flinch concurrent with the shot breaking. If one is going to shoot multiple shots quickly, engage targets that are moving and/or only available for a short interval {as will be encountered in 'action' pistol sports and may be encountered in defensive use}, one needs to conduct their trigger press in such a way that one knows exactly when one's pistol will fire."

Quote: Super Mod --- Rosco Benson
 
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Erno86 said:
...one needs to conduct their trigger press in such a way that one knows exactly when one's pistol will fire...
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And I disagree with that as being imprecise.

The only way to know exactly when the pistol will fire is to jerk the trigger, and that will affect point of impact.

But when the compressed surprise break is mastered, the interval of uncertainty is so short as to be of no consequence. In other words, while you don't know exactly when the pistol will fire, you will know when the pistol will fire within such a short interval that you will be approaching asymptotically knowledge of exactly when the pistol will fire.
 
That's where military & police firearms trainer, Paul Schoch's Zen tactic move comes in {that I discussed previously on this thread,} that seems to remove the anticipation of the shot in one's mind; with no jerking of the trigger.
 
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