Weird. I didn't order a pizza

For those who say the OP would have been charged - that is highly dependent on where he lives.

In Florida or Georgia, once the alleged pizza guy crossed any part if his body forcibly over the threshold, Castle Doctrine would apply, as Burglary and Forcible Entry are both covered under that law in both states.

In both Orlando and Atlanta, this scenario would raise hackles and warning bells.

In other states, it could depend on police and prosecutor bias.

The OP has repeatedly (from post 1) stated he erred in opening the door. He has not struck me as being bloodthirsty or Mitty-esque.

Some of the responses he has received have been kind of chicken little, though, or MMQB.

FWIW, if I had been naive enough to open the door, and had the guy tried to force his way in, he would probably be sporting bruises and dog bites, assuming I had no gun handy. Where I live, he would be the one in trouble. My dogs and I would be fine, at least as far as the law goes.
 
In Florida or Georgia, once the alleged pizza guy crossed any part if his body forcibly over the threshold, Castle Doctrine would apply, as Burglary and Forcible Entry are both covered under that law in both states.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ TRUE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Y/D
 
For those who are jumping on the OP...

What happened to him was the beginning of what could be called "violent and tumultuous entry". This means a forcible, violent entry of the home.

As soon as the door was being forced open, or forcibly held open, a "reasonable" person could possibly articulate that they were in fear of attack. If the OP had drawn a gun--and if I were the responding officer--I would get the description, congratulated the OP on his readiness, and gone looking for the perp.

To the OP...I'll bet you don't make the same mistake twice. It's good sometimes--but not always pleasant--to get a wake-up call.
 
Chris B was giving everyone a warning .. he was sharing his mistake so YOU would not do the same ..

now let me tell you that about 3 weeks ago i brandished my weapon on a plain clothes LEO .. to make the details short he was searching for a suspect and we had just had an incident 2 nights before with a break-in .. all i saw was a figure in the dark with a flash light in my back yard by my shed .. then the light came at my dog who was growling as i looked through my window .. he approached my house and i had my weapon out at my side .. as soon as i saw the badge on his side and his hand resting on his holstered gun reflect off my spot lights i slipped the safety back on and put my gun in my back pocket .. he had his hand on his gun and he knew that i knew he saw my gun .. he explained what he was doing and said "sorry to have startled you sir" .. i think we were both happy at this point neither of us are trigger happy .. nothing was said after that and he continued his search .. me? .. i went in and changed my pants .. btw .. we don't have the "Castle Law" .. yet .. still up for vote or whatever they do in the capital ..
hope everyone has a very safe Christmas ..
 
Ohio has the same provisions under our Castle Doctrine. Also according to Ohio law, the Castle Doctrine applies to us while traveling in our vehicles.
 
Real, true(funny) story a lot like the events in the topic....

When I was about 12(early 1980s or so) my father, older sister and I were watching the unedited horror classic Friday the 13th on HBO late at night.
My dad's apt was in the Shadyside area of Pittsburgh PA. It was urban but mostly yuppies & young couples.
As we watched the spooky, scary climax of Jason's final chase scene; a unknown male(about 25-35 years old, unarmed but intoxicated) opened the apartment's unlocked(thanks, Dad: :() door and walked into the living room!
We all screamed and jumped up. My father did not know the drunk and he quickly left without any incident. In later years, I got a laugh out of it, mostly because of the horror film part, but I did also think that even in the "comfort" of your home/condo/property, you may need to address a serious problem.
Caution & concern should be given too to knowing how to deal with issues.

Web research or reviews could show the mid 1990s shooting incident in LA(Baton Rouge or New Orleans I think) where a teenage exchange student from Japan wore KISS make-up to a party, went to the wrong house and was shot with a hunting .44magnum revolver by the home-owner. The teen was killed and the incident was a huge mess. :(
 
In that case, the homeowner went outside to challenge the kid. The kid didn't understand English that well and didn't stop approaching. The guy's wife was all in a panic and probably got him excited also.

Horrible mistake.

There are others like that. Best defense is don't open the door. We once got fooled by a nutso when we were expecting pizza and I just opened the door. Stupid but he was shooed away successfully without firepower. Learned a lesson on that one.
 
We have a window that looks out on the doorway which we always check first if someone rings the bell. We also have a sign on the door that says "No Soliciting". If someone rings the doorbell, if he wasn't someone invited by us, we don't answer the door. We feel about the door just like we feel about the phone--just because someone calls or knocks, demanding our attention, we don't have to give it to them. It is our life. I answer the phone or the door when it suits me, not because some stranger demands it. That way if he decides to come in, he has to take the time to break something to get in...and he won't like what he meets! Forewarned is forearmed.
 
Not sure what I would have done in that situation. In the unlikely event that I opened the door my S&W 386 2 1/2" would have been in hand but concealed. If the pizza guy had a gun in the bag, or wherever, he would have undoubtedly pulled it when the door was opened. Strange scenario on his part for sure.
 
Safety yiur gun for a moment and consider the pizza man. He knows someone ordered a pizza so wanted through the door to try and lose the pizza, maybe knock on some doors. I bet you could smell pizza too, huh?

Now consider criminals, if yiu were going to do a random home invasion, would you pick a multi story apartment building where neighbors are feet away, or a single famly home where theres more privacy and better loot?

Sure, keep your gun in your back pocket and stay ready and all that but damn, don't go condition red on the pizzaman in an apartment building! Let him in and maybe it was 6E instead of 6B (whatever)...if he steps out of line you can kill him without hate and quickly. ;-)

You didn't have your gun and would have drawn? Bad show three times. The third being, strive to help your fellow man in the face of your fears.
 
Wish all states had Castle Doctrine to take out the gray area that his scenario might have fallen under had it gone wrong IF he had brought and brandished his firearm. Since they don't it would be hard to guess what his state/city/county would do as far as pressing charges go. Could be a state where your life has to be threatened, or direct life or bodily harm threat or several other scenarios in different areas.

I also didn't see it as any Wild Bill idea, just someone showing a scenario that could happen to anyone.

BTW, That particular pizza ploy used to be a biggy in rural Montana area for homeless to find a hallway for the night.
 
i am not a lawyer and do not have any grounds or authority to give legal advice neither am i giving legal advice at this time nor do i plan to in the future
i have a freind that is an NRA and BCI instructor for ccw and he teaches a few other firearms classes HE IS NOT A LAWYER EITHER NOR DID HE GIVE LEGAL ADVICE
check your laws in utah you are aloud to show and point out that should the situation escalate that you have options, waving it in his face is one thing but you can push you coat back and openly out a hand on it to get a point across and it is not brandishing Check the laws for all information
also the fact that you openly stated that you wanted him to stay out side but he refused and grabbed the door to enter ,very situational i wasnt there to see his demeanor or tone of voice, that is considered forcible entery. again check the laws but in utah any force able felony in your domicile is grounds to using a weapon to defend your self or familly or property. the man doesnt even need to be in your home, if you catch a guy prying open a window you are legal to dissolve the situation even if that means dispatching the bad guy (check you options before you shoot) READ THE LAWS there is more to it than what i have stated i am simply suming up

there is a thread on opencarry.org under utah about something very similar was posted and has been discussed for some time now i suggest checking it out
 
Since this an appartment or condo complex with common areas would Castel doctrine laws apply to the common areas or only inside your own appartment/dwelling?
 
Interesting question.

I would think, if the person was not one of the residents or a guest, and since it's a secure entryway (not public access) that Castle Doctrine would apply to the entryway, but I'm not sure.

Good question for fiddletown or one of our other forum attorneys.
 
If the outer door is locked then that should indicate to the pizza guy that strangers are not allowed in without an invitation from a resident. He has no right to enter to knock on doors. The lock is on there for a reason.

Forcing his way in was STUPID on his part. I have NEVER encountered a delivery person that was not polite and respectful, let alone trying to force entry.

The OP was smart to react quickly and get the intruder out before he had a chance to get momentum or leverage.

If this had turned out to be a ploy for home invasion, rather than just a wrong address, then at what point would the polly annas consider it justifiable to draw. When he is in the foyer with a gun in your gut or clubbing you on the head. As soon as he starts forcing his way in that should be the threat indicator, not after he is already in the foyer. I wouldn't wait for a "stick um up".

Thanks for the reminder Chris. Much simpler and safer to avoid the potential for confrontation by not opening the outer door to someone you are not expecting or do not know. Once a confrontation starts at such close quarters there really is no good time to react better than you did.
 
I used to deliver pizzas to apt building, college dorms, etc. Very frustrating job & this was just a few years before cell phones. Get to the address, it's an apt bldg, but no apt was mentioned when ordered. Check names on mailboxes, no help. I have knocked on doors & asked people to call the phone # given. I never tried to force my way into someone's premises. If he refused to help, I went back to the shop. I sometimes used pay phones if nearby (remember those?). Chances are, he was legit, pizza delivery bags aren't a common item you can purchase at Wal-Mart.

Best thing would have been call to him through the window you saw him through, if you could open it. Tell him you didn't order a pizza, that can be end of story for you. He should call the # given with the order. If wrong apt or wrong address, that takes care of it. You said he had a cell phone, a call would have been easy for him to do. His next action should be to call the shop & see if customer called back in with any updated info, or if dispatcher wrote wrong info on ticket. That stuff happens in pizza shops. People call in with Smith St address, should have been Smith Lane. They state North Manor Apts, should have been North Villa, etc. you could stay by window to see if he finds customer or leaves. If he still hangs around, call police. That gets you out of confrontations.

You did the best you thought of at the moment, you did nothing wrong.
 
If this had turned out to be a ploy for home invasion, rather than just a wrong address, then at what point would the polly annas consider it justifiable to draw
Click to expand...

Polly annas? You must mean "responsible, moral, ethical gun owners who are well versed in the law of their juridisctions, who try not to escalate situations and who dont view every crosseyed look as a threat because they are not hung up on internal questions of their own masculinity." :cool:

Now me, as the door is getting kicked in, I am running into the back room and cowering behind the couch or bed (with a gun and phone) calling 911 and shouting at the invader that I am armed and he better leave. I would only shoot if I had no other choice. I wasnt appointed God or a Judge and Jury of One, so its not my place to take life over my Sony, my own psychological inadequacies or some need to be the Avenger of Society.

WildbettertobeapollyannathanaramboAlaska ™©2002-2010
 
Pizza delivery drivers, apt complexes, SOPs-laws....

On a security patrol job about 6 years ago, I spoke to a pizza delivery driver who informed me how he'd been robbed over 14 times!
I'd think after the 2nd time, I'd look for another job. ;)
I'd agree too that it's prudent to be understand the layout or design of your apt building/condo/office complex.
You & your family members may go in & out everyday but some large places can be confusing. Some of the security client sites I worked at had gates, halls, stairs & floors that went all over everywhere. A few of the huge buildings had poor lighting too. :(
I wouldn't draw down on every person I saw unless there was a serious concern.
If I lived in a building or apt complex with problems, I'd address it with the property managers or maybe the resident group/home owners assoc.
If they don't care about improvements or safety, then it may be time to move. ;)
 
You should have (or have not)...

Many times I read a post where someone tells of an incident which started out seemingly harmless and ended up posing a danger. They tell us about this so that we might be forewarned to not let down our guard or to not get into the same situation if we can avoid it.

And what kind of responses does he get?

Everything from “You shouldn’t have been there” to “I’d have pulled my Glock and two COM then one to the head”.

I expect, some day, to see someone post, “I was kneeling before the Pope when....” and see a response post “You shouldn’t have been there”.
 
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