Warning shots where into, how do bullets behave

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John,
just how would I endanger others by firing a warning shot into the 100 foot sand cliff across the street from my house. Each situation must be evaluated individually. A gross all encompassing statement without knowing all of the facts of a situation is asinine. Remember, Warning Shots always kill somebody. I don't think "Warning Shots" would be appropriate in Downtown LA or in front of the White House.

Jungle Work
 
"just how would I endanger others by firing a warning shot into the 100 foot sand cliff across the street from my house."
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How would the poor couple practicing rappel drills for their upcoming vacation's descent from El Capitan have any idea you would be firing warning shots across the bow of a mentally deranged 12 year old right into the middle of their practice session on the sand cliff across the street from your house? She dies.....he sues.....you go to jail on the criminal charges. Bye-bye Mr. Warning Shot.

U.F.O.

P.S. Warning shots are NEVER taught in civilian self defense training by competent instructors for a reason. Warning shots are a bad idea.....period.
 
I guess I'm one of those folks that thinks warning shots are ridiculous. I'm also one of those folks that would not want to kill a person that might be wandering in the park because I felt the need to scare a "poor doggy".

On the other hand if I had X-ray vision and "knew" there was nothing under the exact spot that I was shooting at in the lawn; I might reconsider. I guess my parents raised me to be one of those strange people that cares more about innocent human life than any dogs life. :rolleyes:

Warning shots are best left to the demented leftists that make movies in Hollywood.
 
ufo,
I guess you're right. My warning shot could hit a fosil, bounce up and hit a F-16 and then I'd really be in trouble. Or it might bounce to the coast and sink an Ocean Liner. Sweet Jesus, I'm not advocating warning shots other than maybe two or three a day, I always been taught to never say never..

Jungle Work
 
I've always been taught that I'll play the way I practice. How often do you practice warning shots? To regress slightly.....if a deranged 12 yr old ran at me with a knife I'm convinced I could slap the little SOB back to the stone age without having to break leather. Call it a warning slap.....if you will. I challenge you. Find one.....just one example of ANY recognized civilian firearm's instructor in the U.S. who teaches warning shots as a viable tool and I'll lay palm fronds at your feet and from this point forward spend 25% of my range time practicing warning shot drills. I don't think any palm trees are in imminent danger.

U.F.O.
 
You're saying you've checked that sand cliff for rocks? Ricochets tend to be pretty unpredictable.

That's irrelevant though. Most civilized places have laws against shooting across a public road.
 
JohnKSa,

I just got a beautiful mental image of my next trip to the range. I'll start off firing 9 rounds of .45 ACP into the concrete floor 5 feet in front of the firing line. Then I'll try a few against the right and left walls at a 45 degree angle to my normal target, pretending they're a sand cliff. All in the name of warning shot drills.....of course. We could start a new shooting regimen.....the Mozambique Warning Drill. 1 to the floor, 2 to the COM and 1 to the head. The rangemaster ought to be impressed! He might even let me teach the next class on the MWD technique. Maybe Gunsite will invite me as a guest instructor. I'm jazzed! This has potential. :cool:

U.F.O.
 
reason, please.

In the example listed regarding the deranged 12 year old... It's great that you want to avoid shooting the attacker if at all possible--it's not so great that you're willing to endanger others in the area with a warning shot.
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Why do you think that the body of a 12 year old would stop my 9mm EMFJ+p bullets more reliably than the earth in a park I know? So what about the people beind your COM-target? Can you vouch for no overpenetration to happen?

Some generalisations in this thread are not really thoughtful. So here are my conlusions from this thread, and I really enjoyed this discussions:

1. If I find a warning shot might be enough and avoid a killing I will proceed to step 2.
2. If 1. is a yes, I will look for a safe bullet-catcher.
3. concrete or a sidewalk or street are not a safe bullet-catcher, even for JHP or EMFJ bullets (I assume).
4. The bad guy is also not a guaranteed safe bullet-catcher.
5. Shooting into the air is nonsnse and in my mindest criminal negligence.
6. If 1. is a yes and 2. can be fulfilled I will fire a warning shot into the safe bullet-catcher first.

All more simple answers are lack of though IMO. The truth is rarely pure and never simple (Oscar Wilde).

stay safe.
 
I those are the conclusions you came to from this thread, then all I can say is WOW!

If you absolutely must (scaring a "poor doggy" wouldn't count as a must) fire your weapon at an attacker, and you overpenetrate your target, then yes, that is an entirely different situation than ricocheting (or creating the potential for ricocheting) bullets around. If I am on a jury deciding a case in which the defendant uses the excuse that "I was just trying to scare a "poor doggy" to explain away why he shot the kid on the swingset in the head, I am going to ask the court to hang him. Of course the liberal judge will pin a PETA medal on the defendant instead, but that is neither here, nor there.

Using a firearm has potential for deadly violence each and every time the device is fired. When not shooting in a controlled environment like a gun range, extraordinary precautions must be observed. Pretty simple really. As is the idea that one type of deadly-force fire - center of mass on an attacker - is acceptable, while another type of fire - the so-called "warning shot" - is an improper use of potential deadly force because the possible deadly consequences to an innocent bystander do not match the level of the threat from the attacker. If the level of threat does match that level, then apply the deadly force to the threat.
 
PB,
Intelligent and well thought out response, unlike some of the imature and dogmatic responses, cause I've read it in a book or seen it on TV. I know most of the Heros who post on this board have never looked a booger in the face and their postings are mental masturbation excersises for them.

The best one I love is "I was taught that way at the REAL KILLER School I attended". Sweet Jesus, save us from Wanna Be's.

Jungle Work
 
Jungle Work,

You and Para Bellum go ahead and break most of the laws of the land and ignore advice from the best minds in self-defense training. Since you've looked so many boogers in the face and graduated from the school of "Wanna Be's" so long ago, I would imagine it would be difficult for you to correct any misconceptions that exist in your philosophy. I'm gonna bail on this thread now because I don't like arguing with stubborn people who are wrong and won't admit it. The pay is poor. My appeal to anyone reading this post who is considering formal handgun training is to find competent instruction and learn the right way to carry and handle yourself in life threatening situations. Don't blindly take the advice of people on internet chat rooms, mine or anyone elses. Good luck in the future with your warning shots. Hope they bounce in a good direction for you and the innocents who unfortunately cross your path. Best.

U.F.O.
 
Why do you think that the body of a 12 year old would stop my 9mm EMFJ+p bullets more reliably than the earth in a park I know?
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Bodies don't contain rocks for one thing. I've never heard of a single instance of a bullet ricocheting off of a person and causing an injury. Also, while the bullet may not STOP in a small human, that doesn't mean that a significant amount of it's energy hasn't been absorbed. So even if it goes through, its wounding power has been significantly reduced.

And, MOST importantly, the odds are pretty good that if you don't shoot until you really need to, you might not shoot at all. After all, the vast majority of defensive gun uses don't involve a discharge. The whole point of warning shots is that people feel that they can fire a warning shot and suffer fewer repercussions. That's going to make them feel freer about discharging their firearms when they shouldn't.

The point of carrying or owning a self-defense firearm is to make you and others around you safer. Firing warning shots endangers others around you and is therefore exactly contrary to the reason one carries in the first place.
 
John,
You might look to the Ruby Ridge Murder for what bullets do when they hit people and then hit others. Just a suggestion.

ufo,
Sweet heart, I spent 23 months in ground combat in the Airborne Infantry in the Republic of South Vietnam (68-70). I spent 33 years in LE working at every thing from a National Park Ranger, Police Patrolman, Detective, and a Chief of Police. That don't make me smarter than anybody else, but just for the record,
I guess that's the definition of a Wanna Be in your book.
Sonny, tell us how you not only talk the talk, but walk the walk. Give it a try Sweet heart, were all ears. Tell us about the firefights you've been in, tell about the gun battles you've been engaged in during your most dangerous arrest. Two bit punks make me want to puke.

BTW Sonny in thirty three years of LE I never fired a warning shot, but now I a civilian and I don't have any lawyer police to determine what I do and don't do. The incident I described happened to an officer who went into a home on a domestic call on a disorderly juvenile and upon entering the bedroom was confronted by a 12 year old girl who had a butcher knife in her hand. Her mother was in the bed room and the girl was a nut case and advanced on the officer. He fired a round into a water bed to stop her. Maybe I would have shot her, maybe I wouldn't. He controlled the situation. She stopped and put down the knife. One thing about not being a snot nosed kid, the older you get in life, the more you learn that there are few absolutes. You might look to LAPD for those situations in which an Officer shoot a 12 or 13 year old, justified or not. And since you know it all, maybe you know that most all officers involved in a shooting of a child leave LE within the year.

Jungle Work
 
As I said earlier and absolutely nothing has been presented here to alter the truth of it:
"I don't think any palm trees are in imminent danger."
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I don't care if your LE career included swapping spit with J. Edgar Hoover.....SWEETHEART.....if you're encouraging people to fire warning shots, you're just.....plain.....wrong. If you don't agree, you're wrong twice. :D

U.F.O.
 
ufo,
I'm still waiting to hear about your Life EXPERIENCES, Sweet heart. Don't be afraid or embarrased, tell us all, were waiting. Or is it that you just Talk the talk, because you have never Walked the Walk?

I saw it on TV?
I read about it in a book?
I was trained by a Mall Nnja to do this?
I'll graduate from High School next year.
Which is it, Sweetheart?

Jungle Work
 
It hurts you being wrong.....doesn't it? Having trouble finding ANY reputable, civilian, self-defense professional, anywhere in the country, who'll back up your warning shots are wonderful mantra? You never did much debating during all those years of serial law enforcement jobs.....did ya? My background has exactly zero bearing on the issue on the table right now. Whether or not it's advisable for civilians to utilize warning shots in personal self-defense. If you can't produce collaberating opinion from ANYONE, then all you're doing by asking questions of me is "farting in the wind" to deflect scrutiny from your own erroneous opinions. Put up or shut up. Show us someone respected in the industry who agrees with you. We're waiting.

U.F.O.
 
What is important to keep in mind at the time of need to use “deadly force” is speed is everything and so is accuracy.

When you're gun is out it's time to cancel Christmas. In most states it's Illegal for you to give a warning shot and you will get you locked up if you do. I believe it reckless conduct, risk to public safety just to name a few that come to mind.

I speak form experience and I can tell you that shooting a person is not easy ever if you a hundred percent correct.

This is what happened to me.
When I was working as an Atlanta housing authority officer I was walking around projects on foot doing foot patrol. Why I did this job was because at this time I thought about getting in to law enforcement and hand an application in with several different departments.
Well as on foot patrol with a dumb ass partner (the fag ran at the time it shots got fired) was walking to the bath room and we walked right in to a shooing, a 18 year old kid thought it was funny to kill a 16 year old kid because he would not let him ride his motor cycle. Well as this 18 year old started shooting this kid he seen us and just kept firing at us. Well I hit the ground and got my gun out and started firing back and hitting the gun men. I fired 6 shots, 4 hit the scum bag, 3 in the chest 1 in the head hit right in the nose and the bullet came out the other side. 2 of the chest shots did go through and through, yes I missed twice.
So this 18 year old had no chance in living and still to this day I have mixed feelings about it.
The first thing when the police arrived they asked me what happened and the uniform cops said ok no problem but I need you’re gun, so I gave it to him and pulled out my back up and put it in my holster. Uniform was cool and said you did what you had too to win and go home.
Well when homicide showed up, totally different.
They asked what happened, so I tell the guy, ok you got to give me you’re gun I said the uniform officer had the weapon used, he said that is ok and nice to know but he can’t have me armed because I am a suspect in an homicide and he was not asking aging.
Well I take a ride down town and guess what, 6 hrs latter I was free to go.
When I got down town he detective asked me write down what happened and as I was writing a detective wanted me to tell him what happened while I was writing. This happened like 3 or 4 times, I had to write down 3 different statements and must have told the story to 4 different detectives. They all asked me did I try to give the gunmen a chance to drop the weapon, and did I use all reasonable means not to use deadly force. I said yeah as he’s shooting at me I said please stop, not. I said he was shooting at me I defended my life and that was it. Well at the end of 6 hrs of them trying to trip me up I got ok go home hears you gun back sorry for any inconvenience. I asked the detective where the gun I used is and he said I won’t get that back for some time it has to be sent out to the GBI and they have to do a test to make shore that was the one that killed him. I said I told you that.
Point is it is nothing anyone wants to go though and more times then not I will be just that big of a shock when you will have to use deadly force.
The police are going to put you thought some crap. I did get my gun back 6 weeks later and I get many offers on the weapon for my friend, He has offered me 1,200.00 for my sig p229 in 40 cal with night sights and 4 12 rounder mags . I keep telling him no. when he hits $1,500.00 ok then I will sell.
 
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You might look to the Ruby Ridge Murder for what bullets do when they hit people and then hit others
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I suppose that's useful information if you're carrying a rifle for self-defense. A pistol loaded with a decent self-defense round is going to penetrate about 12 inches of human. Even an ideal shot on a small human is going to use up a good percentage of those inches. In addition, even if you get an exit, an expanded round is less likely to penetrate walls and/or ricochet.

Clearly, there are cases when a warning shot can have the desired effect. You've given a good example. BUT, that is NOT the issue. The issue is whether or not it's PRUDENT to fire a warning shot. I'll repeat what I said at the beginning of this thread. I have never seen a single self-defense authority recommend warning shots and I have seen a good number of them argue against warning shots.

If you are 100% sure you've got a good backstop, I suppose that's one thing. On the other hand, even with a good backstop, if the warning shot is ineffective, you've wasted things (a bullet and a few seconds) that you may shortly need desperately. If you DON'T have a backstop that you're 100% sure of, that makes it a no brainer.

Never launch a bullet unless:

1. You are 100% sure of your backstop.
OR
2. Your life is in immediate danger if you don't fire at your attacker.
 
John,
Never launch a bullet unless:
1. You are 100% sure of your backstop.
OR
2. Your life is in immediate danger if you don't fire at your attacker.

A very true statement, I would not advocate that most folks ever consider firing a warning shot, but there might be that one in a million situation that justifies firing a warning shot. To totally discount that is stupid.

I would not advocate that the average person carry a semi auto hand gun.
Most folks don't pratice enough with their pistols and the problems that can arise with a SA. I shoot a couple of time a week or more, I know folks that have CHLs and they don't pratice once a year. The mindset of police who are shooters and civilians who are shooters are different than most folks who figure that shooting a gun once or twice a year is sufficient to stay profficient. How many people do you know who don't even sight in their deer rifle before hitting the field?

Jungle Work
 
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