Walther PPQ kinda of surprised me

This 'lowest common denominator' end user stuff is what's getting us 7# triggers to begin with.

Let's see-do I think a new driver should drive a Bugatti the first time they go through a parking lot? No.

Do I think a new parachutist should start with HALO jumps? No.

Do I think a new shooter should start carrying with a 4 oz. trigger? No.

Does that mean that Bugattis, HALO jumps or 4 oz. triggers are bad-No. It means they're not for everyone.

By the same token, if you can't drive a Bugatti, don't go around telling people they're 'not safe' because YOU can't/won't/don't want to learn to drive one.

I know for a fact that I'm 'safest' with a trigger around 2 1/2#; and I mean 'safest' in all senses. I won't ND it (because I won't be goobering on it until I intend to shoot) and I'm much less likely to 'whoops!' an innocent bystander than with a heavier trigger.

It's what works FOR ME. It's not because I can't shoot a heavy trigger-I used to hit 'Master' class in local PPC matches with my 686-it's because if I need to hit a 4" square target FAST, that's the trigger most likely to let me do it. I refuse to handicap myself, and endanger others, in the name of 'safety' that really isn't 'safety', it's 'fool-proofing.' It's not that a 5.5# trigger can't be shot 'well', it's about 'best'; and when shooting for your life, I think 'best' is the absolute minimum you should shoot for.


Larry
 
This 'lowest common denominator' end user stuff is what's getting us 7# triggers to begin with.
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Were I a manufacturer, I would likely aim for a middle ground in terms of trigger weight as well. Now I would also try and offer performance pistols if I could, but as you yourself said below:

Let's see-do I think a new driver should drive a Bugatti the first time they go through a parking lot? No.

Do I think a new parachutist should start with HALO jumps? No.

Do I think a new shooter should start carrying with a 4 oz. trigger? No.
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Manufacturers have to take into account that the people buying their products may in fact be new shooters.

Does that mean that Bugattis, HALO jumps or 4 oz. triggers are bad-No. It means they're not for everyone.
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I would agree.

By the same token, if you can't drive a Bugatti, don't go around telling people they're 'not safe' because YOU can't/won't/don't want to learn to drive one.
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I agree again, nor am I saying they are unsafe.

I'm much less likely to 'whoops!' an innocent bystander than with a heavier trigger.
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Similar to how you believe that a competent shooter will keep his/her finger off the trigger, I also believe an experienced shooter can shoot a heavy trigger without hitting a bystander. I do understand your point about not handicapping yourself.
 
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DT Guy wrote:Not what I would do-but the whole 'minimum' trigger weight thing is a fallacy.
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Why would you not carry a DA or SA/DA cocked but not locked?


DT Guy wrote:I refuse to handicap myself, and endanger others, in the name of 'safety' that really isn't 'safety', it's 'fool-proofing.'
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What is "fool proofing" and how is it accomplished?

Not trying to give you a hard time, just looking to eliminate any ambiguity.
 
DT Guy wrote:Not what I would do-but the whole 'minimum' trigger weight thing is a fallacy.
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Why would you not carry a DA or SA/DA cocked but not locked?


DT Guy wrote:I refuse to handicap myself, and endanger others, in the name of 'safety' that really isn't 'safety', it's 'fool-proofing.'
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What is "fool proofing" and how is it accomplished?

Not trying to give you a hard time, just looking to eliminate any ambiguity.
 
There's no need to carry a 1911, say, in condition 0 (for me, at least) since taking it off safe doesn't impede me in any way; it's second nature at this point.

As far as "fool proofing", I was referring to heavy triggers; this belief that a heavy trigger will somehow save an untrained person from an ND when they fail to follow Cooper's rules.

Larry
 
Thanks DT Guy. What about a Sig 226 with the hammer back on a loaded chamber?
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I personally wouldn't nor would I recommend carrying a firearm in a manner not designated by the manufacturer. A DA/SA pistol is designed to be carried hammer down (at least a SIG that doesn't also have a manual safety). If a lighter initial pull is your goal I would suggest another platform such as SAO with safety or a striker fired pistol.
 
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You all keep talking about "finger shouldn't be on the trigger until you're ready to shoot so it doesn't matter anyway". What about trying to reholster after a critical situation or even just doing it normally? I've seen/heard of clothing getting caught in the trigger guard, or a leather holster folding and getting caught. I know I'd rather the gun have a 6 pound trigger than a 2.5 pound trigger if that ever happens. That 3.5 lbs would make a lot of difference there.

But this thread sure did run off topic
 
Heavy triggers are safer for beginners ... period. Officers have shot folks accidentally if they bend over to cover bad guys lying on the street while covering them, finger on trigger. The body position change can make some pull on the trigger as the hands moves down, sometimes this has happened with a shotgun as well ... I know ... personal experience with others on the streets.

Pocket revolvers are harder to shoot accidentally by bumping trigger as the pull is more than the weight of the gun so it is harder than a trigger that is lighter than say a baby Glock 42 or other striker-fired pocket-rocket. A nervous home home owner covering some home invader may get antsy if he moves and if so, an unlocked, safety off, cocked and locked 1911 is much easier to fire by accident than a double-action Sig in DA mode ... no debate, it is science and backed up by stats. Give a newbie or shaky handed grandpa the Sig, and cocky ex-Navy Seal the 1911 ... simple math here...

Trigger weight being a factor in safety is beyond contestation, and most know it. It is not an issue to fight about, it is real. Give the newbies and the kids a safer gun, not a modified trigger gun until they can handle it ... lives are at stake!
 
I personally wouldn't nor would I recommend carrying a firearm in a manner not designated by the manufacturer. A DA/SA pistol is designed to be carried hammer down (at least a SIG that doesn't also have a manual safety). If a lighter pull is your goal I would suggest another platform such as SAO with safety or a striker fired pistol.
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Thanks DT Guy, oh wait, you're not...... I guess I'll have to wait a little longer. Thanks anyways.
 
Thanks DT Guy, oh wait, you're not...... I guess I'll have to wait a little longer. Thanks anyways.
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It's a public forum, if you want direct communication you can always use a pm. You're suggesting carrying a firearm in a way it was not designed to be carried. Ask the manufacturer, you can always call them, and see what they say.
 
Wildbill45

...no debate, it is science and backed up by stats. Give a newbie or shaky handed grandpa the Sig, and cocky ex-Navy Seal the 1911 ... simple math here...
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I'd love to see a cite for this please, as all I ever seen is opinion, no facts.
 
WildBill45 Wrote: Heavy triggers are safer for beginners ... period. Officers have shot folks accidentally if they bend over to cover bad guys lying on the street while covering them, finger on trigger. The body position change can make some pull on the trigger as the hands moves down, sometimes this has happened with a shotgun as well ... I know ... personal experience with others on the streets.

Pocket revolvers are harder to shoot accidentally by bumping trigger as the pull is more than the weight of the gun so it is harder than a trigger that is lighter than say a baby Glock 42 or other striker-fired pocket-rocket. A nervous home home owner covering some home invader may get antsy if he moves and if so, an unlocked, safety off, cocked and locked 1911 is much easier to fire by accident than a double-action Sig in DA mode ... no debate, it is science and backed up by stats. Give a newbie or shaky handed grandpa the Sig, and cocky ex-Navy Seal the 1911 ... simple math here...

Trigger weight being a factor in safety is beyond contestation, and most know it. It is not an issue to fight about, it is real. Give the newbies and the kids a safer gun, not a modified trigger gun until they can handle it ... lives are at stake!
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You are, again, arguing for 'lowest common denominator' engineering. If we were all as 'safe' as the average LEO, I could possibly agree.

And what you're describing actually has a name; sympathetic muscle contraction. It's most pronounced when the weak hand performs an action involving the fingers, particularly the index (obviously, I guess.) Understanding that is 'basic', and something any gun user should know-hence the 'Trigger off the finger until you're shooting' admonition.

If you pull the trigger because you bent over, you're doing it wrong. Counting on 4# of trigger pull to not kill a suspect in that instance is seeking a hardware solution to a software problem, and (potentially, criminally) reckless.

I'd suggest that if aiming a gun at a person with their finger on the trigger is even a remote possibility, that person not carry a gun at all.

Worc wrote: Thanks DT Guy. What about a Sig 226 with the hammer back on a loaded chamber?
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I assume a Sig 226 has a FPS, and would thus be 'safe' to carry in condition zero; it would be the same, mechanically, as a Glock or PPQ, really. I wouldn't do it, simply because at that point a 1911, BHP, CZ SA or something similar would be a better choice from a weapon retention standpoint, but it would not be mechanically 'unsafe'.

Whether is was 'safe' for a particular user to do so would, as always, depend on the user's trigger discipline-just like it does with any firearm.

Larry
 
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I'd suggest that if aiming a gun at a person with their finger on the trigger is even a remote possibility, that person not carry a gun at all.
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To say this you apparently have no idea what it is like on the street doing law enforcement or in a battle field ... Please...

IF ... you had your finger on the trigger, gun pointing at me in my hey day, I could could draw and fire before you did, and did it repeatedly as a demonstration. if I could, there are others who could as well ... then you suggest NOT Even having your finger on the trigger in a life threatening scenario, sure buddy, great idea, but the streets are reality and not a theory or agenda...

Geezzzzzz :rolleyes:
 
Wildbill45

Any opportunity to find those cites related to your claim that heavier triggers are inherently safer than lighter ones?
 
WildBill45 Wrote:To say this you apparently have no idea what it is like on the street doing law enforcement or in a battle field ... Please...

IF ... you had your finger on the trigger, gun pointing at me in my hey day, I could could draw and fire before you did, and did it repeatedly as a demonstration. if I could, there are others who could as well ... then you suggest NOT Even having your finger on the trigger in a life threatening scenario, sure buddy, great idea, but the streets are reality and not a theory or agenda...

Geezzzzzz
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Having been both a military and law enforcement firearms trainer, I think I do.

And operating within the reaction time of an opponent is well documented, and fairly easy; the average reaction time from visual input to a reaction (like pulling a trigger) runs from about .19 to about .28 of a second for most folks. Obfuscation on the draw can buy you a few more hundredths, or perhaps more.

I will again state it; if you're pointing a gun at someone with your finger on the trigger, you're doing it wrong. You're subjecting yourself (and the poor citizen dealing with you...) to the risk of sympathetic muscle contraction (as you pointed out yourself), muscle contractions due to pain or fear response, tripping....it's foolhardy, and reckless. It's also where the 'the gun just went off!' stories originate; people who didn't MEAN to pull the trigger, but didn't follow the basic rules of trigger discipline.

There's also a reason the 'high-speed' units in the military have the best trigger discipline of any group; they operate under higher stress, tighter quarters and with reduced stand-off from fellow team members. Ask a Ranger or SF dude if he goes into combat with his finger on the trigger in a group formation...

And if you're relying on a DA trigger to keep a citizen you're holding at gunpoint, or pointing your gun at the back of the guy in front of you in the stack, while you're touching the trigger, you're a couple pounds from recklessly, culpably taking an innocent human life. Trigger discipline is absolute.

Larry
 
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Too bad what started out as a good thread has become a measuring contest that is making everyone dumber.
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Yes it is ... some of us are getting too emotional, and making points.

Have fun shooting folks...
 
While it's a shame it drifted off topic, the ancillary point under discussion is an important one.

And because forum posts are read, and re-read, for a potentially infinite number of years, refuting incorrect thinking can have an importance to those who will read this (or are reading it) not knowing any better.

Larry
 
DT Guy said:
While it's a shame it drifted off topic, the ancillary point under discussion is an important one.

And because forum posts are read, and re-read, for a potentially infinite number of years, refuting incorrect thinking can have an importance to those who will read this (or are reading it) not knowing any better.

Larry
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Discussion is all well and good. But if a person takes posts on an internet forum too seriously I have pity for him/her. At best it might make others question their own notions, which certainly has value. Re-evaluating your own thinking is essential to learning. Frankly I will stick to my own practices as I am sure most of us will, but maybe we understand each other more.
 
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