Walther PPQ kinda of surprised me

[WildBill45]

Yes, we all know it will not fire unless the trigger is pulled, but in a world in which Murphy resides, it is inherently less safe than a de-cocked longer, heavier, double-action trigger. There is no way around this.

This is true. This is why newbies should consider with much weight which gun to buy. Expert and/or very experienced shooters may go the other way, as a manual safety on some of these Striker style guns can slow one down in a life and death circumstance. The safety design on a 1911 is another matter, and is easy to use and disengage easily, but still a middle of the scale safety/gun combo for a newbie without proper training and much experience. A new driver should stay out of a Ferrari as well, and this is why we have it made in America ... so many choices!!!

 

[dayman]

I kind of agree on the PPQ.

I had one for awhile and liked it quite a lot. I shot it quite well, and honestly didn't have anything to complain about.
Then I got a Glock in a trade, and found that - despite not "liking" it quite as well - I shot better/faster with the Glock.
So, I wound up trading the PPQ for a GP100, and keeping the Glock.

It was weird. For me, the Walther felt much better in my hand, but that somehow didn't translate into shooting better. I suspect it's just a matter of grip angle - the Glock does point extremely naturally for me.
I only wish they made a gun with the PPQ's handle, but bent back to a Glock's grip angle.

 

[Dirty_Harry]

Sounds like some buttsore PPQ owners here!

PPQ is a fine gun, but its not for me either. I like a little more weight behind my trigger pull.

 

[Worc]

dayman wrote:I only wish they made a gun with the PPQ's handle, but bent back to a Glock's grip angle.

While not as adjustable but, almost as ergonomically as the PPQ with a similar Glock grip angle, take a look at the Steyr M-A1 or L-A1 lines.

Out of my auto loaders, the PPQ is the one model that is shot the best more often by others that I let shoot my guns. That would range from first time shooters to very experienced shooters and somewhere near 30 different people. Some of those others shoot the other models better including the Steyr L9-A1 with its trapezoidal sights.

 

[DT Guy]

And again, we hear the argument that a heavier trigger is 'safer.'

How so? If you're fingering the trigger when you shouldn't be, there is NO trigger in the world that will keep you safe. If you're NOT, there is no trigger in the world (assuming it's mechanically sound, i.e., drop safe) that is a danger. If you're counting on a couple pounds of trigger weight to prevent an ND, you're doing it wrong.

And when you struggle to fire that heavier trigger in a critical situation, and hit an innocent instead of the aggressor, will that be 'safer'?

People seem to attribute all sorts of magical properties to adrenaline and stress: you won't 'feel' the extra four pounds of trigger weight', or your fine motor skills will completely and utterly vanish. Along with that, they seem to feel that defensive shooting will NOT be accuracy-intensive and require fast, accurate hits on what might be a small, moving or distant target.

There is no shot you might take in a defensive shooting that will be EASIER than the equivalent shot in training or competition. And if a heavy trigger made it easier to shoot quickly and accurately (which is, of course, the ultimate 'tactical'), you'd see people proposing them for USPSA, IDPA and target shooting.

You don't, because they don't. And in a defensive shooting situation, they still won't; they'll just make it more likely you'll miss the aggressor and hit something (or, god forbid, SOMEONE) else.

Larry

 

[TunnelRat]

How so? If you're fingering the trigger when you shouldn't be, there is NO trigger in the world that will keep you safe. If you're NOT, there is no trigger in the world (assuming it's mechanically sound, i.e., drop safe) that is a danger. If you're counting on a couple pounds of trigger weight to prevent an ND, you're doing it wrong.

So you'd have no problem with a 1 lb. trigger pull then?

 

[Dirty_Harry]

In the case of my 2 favorite striker handguns (FNS-9 and VP9) the trigger is heavier than the PPQ. It gives it a more "predictable" wall right before the break. It actually helps my groups.

Also I like DA/SA for a defensive handgun. A striker handgun is for fun.

 

[DT Guy]

So you'd have no problem with a 1 lb. trigger pull then?

If that's what I comfortably and reliably shot well, no. Not many people can 'feel' a 1# trigger, but I know a few who can. I personally 'feel' a 2 1/2# trigger best, and shoot best with it.

If you don't touch it, it won't go off-if you DO touch it, there's no such thing as a 'safe' trigger weight.

Larry

 

[TunnelRat]

If you don't touch it, it won't go off-if you DO touch it, there's no such thing as a 'safe' trigger weight.

 

[Worc]

So, is it recommended to carry a SA/DA like a Sig 226 with the hammer back on a loaded chamber? How about a 1911 cocked but, not locked?

 

[DT Guy]

Not what I would do-but the whole 'minimum' trigger weight thing is a fallacy.

If a heavy trigger is all that stands between you and an ND, you're doing it wrong. That simple. And these reductio ad absurdum arguments don't disprove that, in spite of the attempt.

I'm not advocating FOR light triggers; people all have different abilities, experience and skills. I'm simply against the 'common sense', but fallacious, idea that a heavy trigger prevents ND's. All you have to do to prove it's lack of efficacy is look at NYPD, and their recent string of 'Duh, we shot the wrong people!' incidents.


Larry

 

[WVsig]

Not what I would do-but the whole 'minimum' trigger weight thing is a fallacy.

If a heavy trigger is all that stands between you and an ND, you're doing it wrong. That simple. And these reductio ad absurdum arguments don't disprove that, in spite of the attempt.

I'm not advocating FOR light triggers; people all have different abilities, experience and skills. I'm simply against the 'common sense', but fallacious, idea that a heavy trigger prevents ND's. All you have to do to prove it's lack of efficacy is look at NYPD, and their recent string of 'Duh, we shot the wrong people!' incidents.


Larry

Oh no Larry now you have gone and done it. You have invoked logic and even correctly applied it to engage someone else's argument. That will not be tolerated here. LOL

I agree with you 100%. I do not see anyone advocating unsafe carrying practices or even super light triggers. What people are advocating that people use common sense and proper trigger discipline. A heavy trigger is a crutch not a solution. There is nothing wrong with a heavier trigger or a lighter trigger it boils down to personal preference for the most part.

Shoot what you feel comfortable with. To the OP there is nothing wrong with not liking a popular gun. We have so many choices there is no need to shoot what you don't like. Just because it is a popular gun does not mean it is for everyone.

 

[Mystro]

Exactly. Heavy triggers are a crutch for non trained and non trigger disciplined owners. Pure and simple.
Since the world must "idiot proof" itself we must all carry the burden of too heavy and increasingly horrible triggers for the 2%rs that can't operate a firearm correctly. As long as you have a crisp and predictable trigger, what's the difference between 2lbs or 10lbs (besides the lack of inherent accuracy of the heavy trigger)? This is why guns like the PPQ and VP9 are finally bringing back a trigger for properly trained gun owners. They should be the norm and not the exception.

 

[TunnelRat]

I'm not advocating FOR light triggers; people all have different abilities, experience and skills. I'm simply against the 'common sense', but fallacious, idea that a heavy trigger prevents ND's. All you have to do to prove it's lack of efficacy is look at NYPD, and their recent string of 'Duh, we shot the wrong people!' incidents.

So are you also arguing that a 5.5 lb. trigger will not allow for acceptable accuracy? I get the opposition to 10 lb. NY style triggers. But if someone tells me they can't get hits on target with a 5.5 lb. trigger because it's too heavy, all I can think is they're seriously lacking in hand strength and practice. There's a massive difference between 2 lbs. and 10 lbs. I think the determination of what is "heavy" can get tricky.

Oh no Larry now you have gone and done it. You have invoked logic and even correctly applied it to engage someone else's argument. That will not be tolerated here. LOL

Since when is that the case? People can disagree and debate in a civil manner. I'd be hard pressed to believe there is one definite "truth" that applies to all gun owners and what is or isn't best for him/her.

what's the difference between 2lbs or 10lbs (besides the lack of inherent accuracy of the heavy trigger)?

I disagree that heavy triggers are inherently inaccurate, as shooters like Jerry Miculek have shown. Heavy triggers require more training I completely agree. But if they were impossible for accuracy then no one would ever have died from a DA revolver.

This is why guns like the PPQ and VP9 are finally bringing back a trigger for properly trained gun owners.

I disagree that a properly trained gun owner would always prefer a light trigger.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/9025

I personally wouldn't want a 2 lb. trigger on a carry gun. But nor am I mandating that it has to be 10 lb. There is a lot of middle ground there. I stick to most weights for factory striker pistols, typically 5-6 lbs. I don't think those are problematic for shooting. I agree that in an adrenaline situation it may very well make no difference. But hey, I haven't seen hard facts yet that it doesn't. In theory we're all perfect. I find in practice it's not often true. Many here are experience shooters, but not every gun owner is.

 

[WVsig]

Since when is that the case? People can disagree and debate in a civil manner. I'd be hard pressed to believe there is one definite "truth" that applies to all gun owners and what is or isn't best for him/her.

Debate yes use logic and syllogism properly no.... Look at your comments you cannot refrain from passive aggressive ad hominem attacks.

You should re-read his post. He is not using logic to establish a definite "truth" he is using logic to demonstrate the fallacies that are being offered as fact in this thread.

Your comment is ironic because he is not trying to establish a "universal truth" he is refuting that "truth" that heavier triggers are safer.

 

[Mystro]

So you're advocating for 2 lb. triggers?

.....Yes I am. Why not. Lets start there and make kits to add weight to a trigger instead of the other way around. The problem is the fundamental assumption that light weight triggers are dangerous. This is no more true than a sharp knife is more dangerous than a dull knife.

As for DA/SA,...I am advocating 5lbs DA and 2lbs SA for all semi autos. That's what a custom shop revolver has and it works for them.

If it wasn't for lawyers systematically attacking the firearm industry, we would have production guns with those trigger weights. I am all for choice but we should at least have the right to choose for such a option. Wouldn't it be nice if we could choose "X" brand of hand gun with a 3lbs, 5lbs, and 10lbs trigger weight?? You wouldn't be able to keep X brand handgun in stock, they would sell so quickly. The problem is ambulance chasing lawyers are determining what handguns we can and can not buy and one of their weapons is spreading misinformation like light triggers are dangerous.

I want to go on record to express my personal preference in trigger weight is 3lbs either in IPSC competition or in a my EDC handgun.

 

[TunnelRat]

Look at your comments you cannot refrain from passive aggressive ad hominem attacks.

I don't see that sorry.

He is not using logic to establish a definite "truth" he is using logic to demonstrate the fallacies that are being offered as fact in this thread.

That wasn't my interpretation of his argument.

 

[WVsig]

I don't see that sorry.

So you're arguing that a 5.5 lb. trigger will not allow for acceptable accuracy? I get the opposition to 10 lb. NY style triggers. But if someone tells me they can't get hits on target with a 5.5 lb. trigger because it's too heavy, all I can think is they're seriously lacking in hand strength and practice. There's a massive difference between 2 lbs. and 10 lbs.

Maybe you should brush up on your logical fallacies?

 

[TunnelRat]

.....Yes I am. Why not. Lets start there and make kits to add weight to a trigger instead of the other way around. The problem is the fundamental assumption that light weight triggers are dangerous.

As for DA/SA,...I am advocating 5lbs DA and 2lbs SA for all semi autos. That's what a custom shop revolver has and it works for them.

If it wasn't for lawyers systematically attacking the firearm industry, we would have production guns with those trigger weights. I am all for choice but we should at least have the right to choose for such a option.

There are a lot of good points here.

Does it require more physical force to pull a heavier trigger? Yes. Should that matter if your finger is off the trigger until you've decided to engage the target/threat? No. Now I can agree that the option to have lighter triggers from factory is something I would also appreciate. But I think we can agree that there are some shooters that might not have as good trigger discipline as those that are experienced. I would not want a first time shooter to use a gun with a 2 lb. trigger. That's just my opinion.

This is no more true than a sharp knife is more dangerous than a dull knife.

I understand you're trying to create an analogy, but a sharp knife cuts dramatically better than a dull knife. I assume you mean dangerous to the owner of the knife. I would say that this holds true for a properly trained and experienced knife user. However, as I said before, not everyone is experienced. In that case if I were to make a mistake and slip with a sharp knife as opposed to a dull knife, I would likely cut myself much worse. Someone could try to go even further and say that the only way to be perfectly safe would be to have no knife at all. I think I should clarify that I am arguing as to why I believe that for general use there is a happy medium. That said, I do think your idea of lighter triggers from factory is a good one and we have seen numerous manufacturers start their own custom shops for that reason.

 

[TunnelRat]

Maybe you should brush up on your logical fallacies?

How is what I said a fallacy? Or more so how is that an ad hominem? We can go through every word in the logic dictionary but I stand by what I said. I never said anything about him personally lacking strength. I'm legitimately curious if he believes a 5.5 lb. trigger is too heavy for accuracy.

Edit: I assume you are referring to my assumption of his argument against 5.5 lb. triggers. Fair enough. I will rephrase it as a question.