Vid link :Is my 9 a bear stopper? answered

Must have a bunch of PITA people here. The first shots were warrented with the cow/bull charging other officers. Not well placed but justified.

Not too many hunters on the force there or they would have let the cow just bleed out instead of trying to put it down.

The thing that hit me was did all those officers leave home without their shotguns that morring? Did no one have an AR in the car for a head shot?

Going after a 2,000 lbs animal with a handgun or even a 600 pound bear is not smart no matter what caliber it is. (unless a 44 mag)

Just my 2 cents.
Jim
 
HiBC,

I agree everything you have said, except I don't believe the idiot police cow video is really representative of a bear attack.

I surely agree that if I was in bear country and thought an attack was probable, I'd use a 12ga shotgun with slugs or the largest rifle I could get my hands on way before I resorted to a handgun.

That said, a full mag of 9mm or .40cal is better than hitting it with a flashlight.
 
It's Canada. Our ridiculous gun laws have convinced most of our city dwellers that handguns are evil death rays. :mad:

Many of our LEOs are not "gun" people and only shoot to qualify.

A very pathetic spectacle.
 
Dr Strangelove: Thank you.I agree the steer standing there has nothing in common with a bear attack,other than it is a large,relatively robust animal.
I recall reading in Kanut's "Bear Tales of Alaska" about a grizzly biting a man across the face,about eye level.The man experienced touching his face,to find the structure containing his eye sockets was gone.

I have never heard of a cow doing that.

I have seen a pic of a bullfighter with a horn impaled uner his chin,coming out his mouth,He was hanging there ,from this bull with darts in his shoulers,etc.

In Kanut's book,there was a chapter abouy an old woman native trapper,confronted by a brown/grizzly.She killed him with her single shot 22.

Folks,I guess my main point is I have seen soft,loose projectiles break up and fail to penetrate enough times to understand they are not always the answer.

If you want to stop what is happening with a handgun right now,you have to impact the central nervous system.Dependably doing that takes penetration provided by a tough bullet,and shot placement.Then,900 fps may be enough.

I have seen full house 44 mag JSP turn to flakes and stop in the neck of an elk.5,maybe 6 in penetration,max.

Am I saying a 44 mag will not penetrate?NO!!.I believe a hard cast 240 gr Keith would pass through an elk in many situations.

Had those LEOs used a hard ,heavy bullet from a 357,I think shooting the spine/shoulder blade shot would have been curtains.

Anyway.I'm thinking,enough.Invitation to mods to close thread unless someone has something to offer besides criticizing the cops.

Not to say the cops were brilliant,but,if that steer got to a high speed road and a mini van with kids slammed into 800 lbs of beef,folks could get killed.
It may be a decision to get the 12 ga out and dispatch the critter would be rational.I do not know.

The bullets were designed for a different job and were mis applied.It failed.
I was hoping we could learn from it.
 
HiBC said:
The bullets were designed for a different job and were mis applied.
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This is where most folks make their mistake, using the wrong projectile for the target. You must choose the projectile that fits the target and velocity that you wish to shoot.

Today I was shooting 90gr hollow-points at 3255fps from my .270win. These rounds will disintegrate a woodchuck, and make just a nasty mess of a fox or coyote sized target. Shoot these same bullets at a whitetail deer, they're just going to blow up on skin contact and make a huge nasty shallow wound with no penetration. The bullets aren't designed for hunting large game.

Same .270win, I can use 130gr bullets (@2800fps) designed to expand at the velocities encountered when the target is large game, and the bullets expand in a controlled manner and dispatch the animal in a humane manner.

The fact is, bullets are made for certain jobs and to perform at specific impact velocities in specific targets. Make sure you are using the right bullet.

For bears, or other thick skinned, thick fat layer creatures, high velocity, solid non-expanding bullets are the answer.

Short and quick, pick your bullets for the job they are designed to accomplish. Far too many folks just choose by caliber.
 
I agree with what you two have said about bullet selection. A bullet designed to expand and only penetrate 14 inches of gelatin isn't the right choice for a bear.
 
Carbine / Shotgun?

To address the op's assertion. As stated before; apples and oranges. Shooting a steer with hydro-shocks or Win Rangers is not the same as a purpose loaded weapon with hard cast bullets. I still would not choose a 9 mm for bear protection, but not because of this video. My choice for bear is spray backed up by my S&W 29 with Buffalo Bore heavy hard cast slugs.

Back to the Cow: Don't the police normally have carbines or shotguns available? A face on brain shot with a .223 or a 12 guage slug in the boiler room may have ended this with a little more efficiency. The police had the foresight to bring a wrecker to haul the carcass off. Why not the foresight to have a patrol Sargent use his/her carbine or shotgun?

That cop should be fired for that,,,
If you or I would have done the same thing,,,
We would have been hauled off to face animal cruelty charges.

Shame on him,,,
Shame I say.
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Really?

As for judging the police; what were they suppose to do? If the owner did not have the means to quickly retrieve the animal (speculation) were they (the cops) just going let this animal run around presenting a hazard to vehicle and pedestrian alike? It wasn't pretty to watch but it may have been necessary. They were there to put it down, why else did they have the roll on wrecker? They weren't going to have a living cow walk up on the wrecker and lay down to patiently await it's ride back to the farm.
 
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Since I haven't watched the video yet, I'll post no opinion. That said, I understand what the OP is attempting to get across, and I agree with him.

I carry a SAR K2-45 on duty, a 14+1 .45acp loaded with 230grain JHP. I have dispatched one deer using my duty weapon, with stellar results. A deer is not a cow, nor a beer. My deer shot was approximately 5 feet away, into it's skull. It left one nasty hole. A second shot was done to appease the officer who had just hit the deer with his car. Deer is now steak, sausage, etc. It was really good in chili!

In any case, I would not carry my duty weapon into the woods. That would be something for a big bore, like an Alaskan, Mountain Gun, etc. Nothing smaller then .44 Mag. While a smaller caliber might work, I wouldn't trust it. And it would indeed be FMJ or something along those lines.

Also, there is always a rifle in my car. If something like a cow needed put down, and it was safe to do so, that is what I would be using. Of course, being a deputy sheriff, I have yet had to dispatch a cow/bull, but have walked several back into their pens.

*edit* Just watched the video, the first cop didn't need to shoot. While the calf was indeed running towards the cars, IMHO, it wasn't charging, but appeared to be attempting to get away from the officer standing in the road, the one who did the first shooting. If it had truly been charging at that officer, it would have clearly still got to him. The second one was trying to do the right thing by attempting to put it down. I think compensation for the calf by the first officer would be punishment enough. They aren't cheap.
 
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City Cops

Most likely those city cops had never seen an animal bigger than a pit bull dog. Heck, they probably thought their steaks came from Ruth's Chris. What you bet those cops stop using those poodle guns and get something bigger.
 
*edit* Just watched the video, the first cop didn't need to shoot. While the calf was indeed running toward the cars, IMHO, it wasn't charging, but appeared to be attempting to get away from the officer standing in the road, the one who did the first shooting.
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From what I saw the cops didn't shoot because the steer charged or didn't charge. They were there to put the animal down; period. Why else would they have showed up at the scene with a tow truck. The cop's had determined that their course of action was to put the animal down, load it on the tow truck and drive it off.
Who knows what the back story was or where they were? They may have been near a heavily populated and trafficked area and needed to immobilized the steer before it injured or killed someone. An unpredictable steer wandering around in traffic could be a fatal surprise to unsuspecting motorist.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/moline-il/T62I2R1MMAH1DNFMV

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080320195237.w8i43nwu&show_article=1

Note on links: Cops dispatching wayward farm animals is not exactly uncommon, it just doesn't always make it to you tube.

I'll give the cops the benefit of the doubt and not harshly judge them from a video clip that provides no context to understand the full circumstances of the event.

Post script: In summary; Bears vs 9 mm; nope. Video of no use to determine handgun effectiveness against bears. Cops vs cows; use a carbine or shotgun.
 
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^^
Yes we don't know the whole story for all we know they were out with that cow for hours and it already trampled someone and thats why they were out there. I can think of several reasons for that cow to be shot that may not be in some kid's video.
 
Poor outcome. If they wanted to put the animal down they needed a shotgun with slugs, or maybe a well placed head shot. Those police are issued 9mm 127+P+. I know the Maine Game Wardens have put down moose with their 357 sig 125 grain, which would be similar to the Canadian issued round 127+P+ 9mm. Many police are not sportsman and do not realize caliber and shot placement for animals.
 
That was just stupid and dangerous. If their goal was to really put it down how about a carbine or shotgun with slugs? Don't the police nowdays still carry some sort of long gun in their cruisers? Seems to me just spraying 9mm hollowpoints might not be the smartest thing to do. I too would guess most of those officers aren't hunters
 
It's obvious that the entire, unfortunate, needless and heinous act was the result of either (at best) outright LE ignorance or (at worst) blatant animal abuse. Either way there should be an investigation to make sure such actions are never again committed. It is stating the obvious that policies for dealing with large animals should already be in place--If they aren't/weren't then the higher-ups should be reprimanded and if they were the officers not following said policies should be admonished at the very least. My father taught me at a very young age what was needed to address game of all kind running the gamut. Hard to watch the video and even harder to believe the perps weren't drunken campers or the like but actual sober LE...:mad:

-Cheers
 
Reading the back story on this, there's a highway close by and the concern was that the bull would get to the highway. They were there over an hour attempting to trap the animal and were unsuccessful. They sought assistance from a wildlife officer, but it was a domestic animal that was on its way to be slaughtered and got loose. Not wildlife, so they didn't respond. (Of course this is according to news media.)

So they were in a situation they weren't trained for to begin with.
 
wayneinFL

So they were in a situation they weren't trained for to begin with.
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Thanks for the additional information (even if the legitimacy of the source is at question, it sheds further light/thought on the horrific incident). But I still think your quote listed above sums it all up in a nutshell.

-Cheers
 
This has zero merit comparing a loose cow to a bear attack.

I'm also glad that I don't live any where near the officer that started spraying bullets at the cow.
 
Going after a 2,000 lbs animal with a handgun or even a 600 pound bear is not smart no matter what caliber it is.
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It's a yearling, at best, and is tipping the scales at well under a thousand pounds still. Back off, turn the damn sirens off, toss a rope on it, dally to a tree, and three of 'em could have put it on the ground just fine. That was outrageous.
 
I'd have to agree. This was not necessary.

Animals that we eat should be treated humanely and with respect. Blasting it with an under powered weapon like that was just uncalled for. i could understand if this was a rampaging bull, but not this.
 
Is this the only part of TFL you guys read?

This video/shooting was just discussed a few days ago in T&T.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=467458

TL;DR The cow was loose for hours. It was freaking out. There was a school near by. The owner told the cops to shoot it. The cops don't know how to shoot. One poster mentioned that cops in that area don't have anything more powerful than pistols (no shotgun or rifle in the squad car).
 
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