USMC Raiders chooses the Glock 19 over the issued 1911

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Let's face it......seems like the majority is set on 9mm......whatever the platform.
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It's been that way since 1985 when the M9 was adopted. No news there.

No news that the 45acp has been dying out as a military caliber since the Second World War.

The news here is that MARSOC, in addition to the M9 and P226 now officially allows the Glock, for certain operations and will order some. Meanwhile they have their main sidearm the 1911 from Colt. The G19 hasn't replaced the 1911 as some here hope, and I'm not sure why they hope that as much as they do but there ya go.

The Marines of MARSOC are still using them till they change their minds. Ya may not like it but it's a fact and ya got to live with it and wrap your minds around it. Many there and in special forces, as mentioned and linked to, have confidence in the round. Chris Kyle liked it and stayed with it as mentioned earlier.

tipoc
 
Actually it is a good example. A SEAL he had an option to chose his handgun. He chose the 1911 as a back up weapon. For those in the military their handgun is a back up weapon and not the primary.

Kyle like a number of others chose a 1911. When that went down he replaced it with a Sig P220. Both were 45s. He explains this in his book.

It's a good example of someone in special forces picking their gun. Which is what this thread is about.

Neither Kyle nor Littlefield had the chance to draw their sidearms on the day they were murdered. They did have rifles with them. But it was a murder, not a gunfight.

tipoc
 
Kyle like a number of others chose a 1911. When that went down he replaced it with ...

This is actually a pretty common story.
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For whatever its worth I don’t believe Kyle’s 1911 “went down” I think it was actually damaged in an explosion.
 
First time I saw it in person and I had make a conscious effort to keep myself from making googley eyes at their holsters.
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I fervently deny such things; but both my platoon sergeant and company XO confirm, that I made odd sounds of lusting when we walked past a group of Marine Raider guys coming out the DFAC as we were walking in. They all had M-45s riding on their hips or trauma plates.

Personal choice for a sidearm, especially for guys that make their living doing direct action type stuff, makes perfect sense to me.
 
I mentioned this earlier...

From Chris Kyle, pg. 143-44 of the paper edition of "American Sniper",

The standard Seal - issued pistol was a Sig Sauer P 226 chambered for 9-mm ammo. While that is an excellent weapon. I felt I needed more knockdown power than nine millimeters could provide. and later started carrying my own personal weapon in place of the 226. Let's face it - if you are using a pistol in combat the s... has already hit the fan. You may not have time for perfect shot placement. The bigger rounds may not kill your enemy, but they are more likely to put him down when you hit him.

In 2004, I brought a Springfield TRP Operator, which used a .45 caliber round. It had a 1911 body style, with custom grips and a rail system that let me add a light and laser combo. Black, it had a bull barrel and was an excellent gun - until it took a frag for me in Fallajuh.

I was actually able to get it repaired - those Springfields are tough. Still not wanting to press my luck, I replaced it with a Sig 220. The 220 looked pretty much exactly like the 226, but was chambered for the 45 caliber
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The point here is that a number of folk in various special operations groups continue to use 1911s or other 45 caliber pistols (P220, HK Mk 23, etc.) in preference to the M9, the P226, or Glock 19 and the 9mm. Some may disagree with their reasons for doing so. OK, if so talk to them. They are a distinct minority in the U.S. military but they are there and MARSOC is one place where for the Marines a tradition lives on. The G19 has just been added to the list of MARSOC's official back up to the 1911 guns along with the guns they have traditionally allowed the M9 and 226. So they have not lacked for the 9mm if they wanted or needed. Good more choices.

tipoc
 
From Chris Kyle said:
The standard Seal - issued pistol was a Sig Sauer P 226 chambered for 9-mm ammo. While that is an excellent weapon. I felt I needed more knockdown power than nine millimeters could provide. and later started carrying my own personal weapon in place of the 226. Let's face it - if you are using a pistol in combat the s... has already hit the fan. You may not have time for perfect shot placement. The bigger rounds may not kill your enemy, but they are more likely to put him down when you hit him.
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It's important to address this quote, for a few reasons germane to this discussion:
  • Quotes like this, from various military types are often used as a point of validation.
  • The quotes references Kyle's belief in "knockdown power" or the notion that the .45ACP will likely "put a man down" better than 9mm or .40S&W.
  • These notions are absolute myths, and should not be repeated in any rational discussion.
  • References to Kyle's status as a Navy SEAL and war hero are not a a rational counter to the laws of physics, which govern the known universe.
  • Repeating demonstrable nonsense - regardless of the source - does no one good, if we truly wish to advance the art, and our own personal understanding.
 
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I felt I needed more knockdown power than nine millimeters could provide. and later started carrying my own personal weapon in place of the 226. Let's face it - if you are using a pistol in combat the s... has already hit the fan. You may not have time for perfect shot placement. The bigger rounds may not kill your enemy, but they are more likely to put him down when you hit him.
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This is old-time mythology and owl droppings.

Bullets don't "knock people down" or "put people down."

What they do is damage tissue and bone, cause bleeding and otherwise cause destruction to vital bones and organs which will incapacitate the victim.

No bullet that is not properly placed will be effective.....or, to put it another way, if a bullet is NOT PROPERLY PLACED it will make no difference whether it's a .36 or a .45 caliber.

That's why the 9mm is far more popular than the .45 ACP among military people.

Running out of ammo was a more important consideration than the flawed and unrealistic myth of "knock-down" power.

Edit: I see Zombietactics beat me to it. No matter......it probably needed to be said twice anyway.
 
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I quoted this earlier as well as quotes from other soldiers and Marines making the same points. It is a part of why those who are in the service who chose 1911s or the P220 choose them.

This is old school. Goes back to Lt. Julian Hatcher, Townsend Whelen, Elmer Keith, Cooper, and many others. Who often discussed "stopping power" or "Knock down" power and were quite clear on what they meant by it.

But again, as they say..."Go tell the Marines". :) Your complaint is with them.

Oh, by the way...

These notions are absolute myths, and should not be repeated in any rational discussion.
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Is that a recommendation that I, nor anyone else, should quote no Marines, SEALs, or anyone else on this matter. Or that we should not read the old texts or quote them. Or that you aim to forbid a rational discussion of such? Too late if that's the case. I quoted a few earlier in this thread.

tipoc
 
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This is old school. Goes back to Lt. Jullian Hatcher, Townsend Whelen, Elmer Keith, Cooper, and many others. Who often discussed "stopping power" or "Knock down" power and were quite clear on what they meant by it.
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And they were wrong, just as previous generations thought the Earth was flat, or that a cannon ball will fall faster than a grapeshot. WE know better now, and Aristotle (though wise) was wrong about quite a few things. An appeal to nostalgia is not an appeal to reason.

But again, as they say..."Go tell the Marines". Your complaint is with them.
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Why would I argue the point with non-experts in the field of terminal ballistics? Would you spend more than 5 minutes discussing geology with someone who believed the Earth was flat, based upon "a noble tradition" and the quoting of old texts? The argument (if any) is not with me, but with repeatable observation, science and medical evidence.

Is that a recommendation that I, nor anyone else, should quote no Marines, SEALs, or anyone else on this matter. Or that we should not read the old texts or quote them. Or that you aim to forbid a rational discussion of such? Too late if that's the case. I quoted a few earlier in this thread.
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It's a recommendation that no one should quote anyone on a subject outside of the quoted parties depth ... nothing more or less. We should read everything, uphold that which proves true, and reject that which does not ... regardless of the source.

How is it that suggesting that we avoid appeals-to-authority, appeals-to-nostalgia, and repeating demonstrable nonsense, taken as a suggestion to "forbid rational discussion"?
 
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Wait a minute,... Back to the topic of what a seasoned Navy Seal has openly disclosed.....

So a trained elite professional that puts their life on the line and in the most hostile areas believes and chooses a 45acp over a 9mm. I can't believe anyone on a internet gun forum would have the guts to challenge a seasoned Seals choice and reasoning on what weapon kills better without looking foolish or even thinking they have access to more information on the subject of effective ballistics is absurd.
 
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Chris Kyle said:
The bigger rounds may not kill your enemy, but they are more likely to put him down when you hit him.
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zombietactics said:
These notions are absolute myths, and should not be repeated in any rational discussion.
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zombietactics said:
It's a recommendation that no one should quote anyone on a subject out the quoted parties depth ... nothing more or less. We should read everything, uphold that which proves true, and reject that which does not ... regardless of the source.
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What are your sources for your statement that Chris Kyle's observations about bigger rounds are an absolute myth?
 
So a trained elite professional that puts their life on the line and in the most hostile areas believes and chooses a 45acp over a 9mm. I can't believe anyone on a internet gun forum would have the guts to challenge a seasoned Seals choice and reasoning on what weapon kills better without looking foolish.
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I'd humbly suggest that you are confusing your particulars.

Whether or not someone puts their life on the line has no bearing on the question. If a fireman puts his life on the line, and thinks water is made of Nitrogen and Helium, he is simply incorrect.

Whether they did so in hostile areas has no bearing on the discussion. Bullets don't know whether they are in hostile areas or not.

The elite training in question was not regarding any factor we are discussing.

An appeal to hero worship is not an appeal to reason.

The belief expressed by Kyle was a mere belief, and nothing more. Fantasy does not become reality because someone believes in it strongly enough.

He was simply incorrect in that belief, and there is adequate evidence to prove it beyond any reasonable doubt. That's not an insult to anyone or anybody. It's simply an expression of a conclusion based upon evidence.

If I look "foolish" by daring to assert something I can back up with reference to physics, science and medical evidence., how much more foolish is someone to insist upon asserting that which they cannot?

Maybe we should stop worrying about who looks foolish, and simply concentrate on what can be demonstrated to be true.
 
What are your sources for your statement that Chris Kyle's observations about bigger rounds are an absolute myth?
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How many references would you find compelling enough, to cause you to critically re-examine the issue in light of actual evidence?
 
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I am Marines, and my friend is Marine Recon.

I want to ask all you gentlemen. Are you going into combat soon?
If you are, please remember, you are forced through international treaty to only use specific ammunition. This ammunition gives a noticeable edge to the 45 for wound creation and dmg for 1 shot. Also, the new M45 has VASTLY higher pressure allowance than a normal 1911. The 45 ammo used for it will be vastly more powerful than puny 9 MM ball. So I can understand why militarily, the 45 looks so great. Its great because your handcuffed by politics.

However. If you are NOT going into combat, serving under a Government flag, then now we have entered into a completely different game.

Here is the modern game:

http://looserounds.com/2014/09/21/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/

Well...I think Military experts in small arms put it best. What did they say?

the M45 requires more training and its not as reliable.

LOL what? What kind of moron in the modern era puts a safety on the handle of a damn combat weapon? So now you know why the "military experts" allowed Glocks. SIMPLICITY. If you don't grab the dang M45 tight, or high enough on the beaver tail......

IT WONT SHOOT. And why on earth did the "experts" say the M45 is not as reliable? Why on earth??

too many moving parts, too much complexity.

1911 is no contest vs a modern firearm. And it never will be.

I think its funny Marines are disassembling their great, holy grail M45's and removing the safety on the handle.

Why on earth? 100+ year old thinking. We have evolved past grip safeties fella's. The grip safety serves zero, military purpose in the modern era. None. Its function less. Yet this gun was designed for combat? what?

A 1911 has no place in combat in the modern era, its simply not reliable enough and too complicated. Which is exactly why the Marines are now allowed to carry Glocks. Simplicity = reliability.

But I could be the one who is wrong, I could be the one living in an alternate reality. Maybe I should be teleported back 100 years and educated why the 1911 is so great.

It doesn't take NASA to figure it out. Its not the caliber, its the design.
 
The question was why would the Marine Corps MARSOC units and a number of other SO units Delta, the SEALS, etc. still use and have the 45 acp in their stable and some favor it. That was the issue. I explained and quoted earlier a number of sources from the military on that matter. Why did USSOCOM want a gun in 45 using a 185 gr. +P bullet? I explained that earlier. I liked to sources from MUESOC and MARSOC explaining their thinking in ordering 12,000 1911s from Colt in 2012. Kyle is only one person.

It doesn't matter whether you agree with them or not, it is the case that they use it. Why they use the .45 has also been addressed it has little to do with hero worship. If they are collectively embracing an illusion, as you suggest,

The belief expressed by Kyle was a mere belief, and nothing more. Fantasy does not become reality because someone believes in it strongly enough.
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It wan't Kyles alone.

This is no appeal to hero worship on the part of the Marines. Nor to nostalgia. The great mass of the U.S. military field 9mms. But some in special forces continue to use the 1911 and the 45acp. They also explain why. Bottom line they have confidence in the round and the guns for it and their capabilities with it. You may want to relax with that. It seems to upset you a good deal that they do.

tipoc
 
Is that a recommendation that I, nor anyone else, should quote no Marines, SEALs, or anyone else on this matter.
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You'll get better results if you quote Marines, SEALS or just people, who know what they're talking about.
 
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