USMC Raiders chooses the Glock 19 over the issued 1911

[tipoc]

I noted earlier that there are better choices for an army these days than the 1911 in my opinion. Well not only in my opinion but in the opinion of most armies. That has been the case since the end of WWII. I have no reason to dispute that. So for Zombietactics to argue that point seems, well, pointless. It's is an argument off target.

So the argument becomes that the 1911 is now and has always been unreliable in harsh battlefield conditions period. Not "comared to more modern designs" but period. That opinion is incorrect as I showed.

By 2002 the the M9 and M11 were well represented in the hands of Marines and the dominant guns throughout other branches of the military.

The MEU was down to 500 1911s. The gun was on it's way out.

From 2002:

Marine Corps officials keep about 500 .45-caliber pistols, based on the Colt M-1911A1 frame. They’re called MEU (SOC) .45s, specially designed for applications within the Marine Expeditionary Unit’s Special Operations Capable missions.

They’re issued to Force Reconnaissance Marines as secondary weapons to submachine guns for their role as the Maritime Special Purpose Force. This gun shoots up close and personal.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/meu_1911.htm

MEU commanders and armorers wanted to expand on the number and quality of 1911s in stock. They had been keeping the 500 guns running on spit, gum and custom parts. Caspian slides, barrels from Bar-Sto, etc.

From a 1993 article after the first Gulf War...

Description of Modifications: “The MEU(SOC) pistol starts out as a stripped government contract M1911A1 frame, as manufactured up until 1945 or so. The frame is inspected, and the feed ramp polished and throated. The entire weapon is dehorned. All internal parts are replaced with current commercial items. King’s Gun Works supplies the beaver-tail grip safety and an ambidextrous thumb safety... The pistol must fit any operator in the platoon, whether he is right or “wrong” hand dominant. Future rebuild pistols will have a “memory bump” on the grip safety...Videcki aluminum Match triggers are installed, and tuned to a pull of between 4-5 pounds. Colt Commander hammers replace the standard spur hammer.

The complete list can be seen here and was extensive...

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/meusoc.htm

Quiet fixes and a clear mandate

Even after the new Berettas appeared in the Fleet, many small units in the Marines retained and lovingly customized their legacy M1911s. These units, mainly the old school Force Recon groups, were issued the modified weapon. Using World War Two holdover frames, these guns were completely reworked repeatedly until by 2003, with some guns seeing an estimated 500,000 rounds on their frames, were put to pasture.

A Marine Special Operations Team member assists with security while Afghan National Army Special Forces Soldiers and MSOT members speak with possible Afghan Local Police candidates in Helmand province, Afghanistan, April 4, 2013. (U.S. Marine Corps photo by Sgt. Pete Thibodeau/Released)
A Marine Special Operations Team member assists with security while Afghan National Army Special Forces Soldiers and MSOT members speak with possible Afghan Local Police candidates in Helmand province, Afghanistan, April 4, 2013. (U.S. Marine Corps photo by Sgt. Pete Thibodeau/Released)

As a replacement, the Corps bought small numbers of commercial Kimber ICQBs outfitted with Surefire Integrated Military Pistol Light (IMPL) in 2003 and some Springfield PC9111MC Professional Model 1911-A1s in 2005. However, with the Berettas still unloved, and small batches of commercial .45s not cutting it, the Corps asked for a new, improved, and all-marine 1911.

http://universityofguns.com/for-the-marines-the-1911-never-goes-out-of-style/

When MARSOC was formed in 2006 many of the Marines went with the rebuilt or newer 1911s from the 2003 and 2005 purchases.

The Marines now had a batch of 1911s with no parts commonality. The predictable results and headaches ensued.

Yet still...They wanted a 1911. Was it romance? Or mystique? Or just complaisance and laziness?

“The two biggest reasons we carry the .45 pistol,” said Marine Maj. Tracy Tafolla, “is a single-action loader is a little faster for the Marines to use when conducting close-quarters battle...”

“We get faster, stronger and more accurate shots that we just wouldn’t get with a double-action pistol,” said Tafolla, head of the Special Missions branch, III3rd Marine Expeditionary Force Special Operations Training Group.

Why keep building and rebuilding them? They had the Sig P220, thay had the Glock, they had H&K products to go to...

The Major continues...

The MEU (SOC) .45 also is better able to survive harsh battlefield environments, Tafolla said. It can fire in dirtier conditions that would gum up the M-9; its heavier frame can take more abuse.

“Look at how many decades we’ve been using the .45,” the major said. “It’s a proven weapon.”

Chris Kyle, a Navy Seal also choose the 1911. He bought his own off the Shelf Springfield...

The standard Seal - issued pistol was a Sig Sauer P 226 chambered for 9-mm ammo. While that is an excellent weapon. I felt I needed more knockdown power than nine millimeters could provide. and later started carrying my own personal weapon in place of the 226. Let's face it - if you are using a pistol in combat the s... has already hit the fan. You may not have time for perfect shot placement. The bigger rounds may not kill your enemy, but they are more likely to put him down when you hit him.

In 2004, I brought a Springfield TRP Operator, which used a .45 caliber round. It had a 1911 body style, with custom grips and a rail system that let me add a light and laser combo. Black, it had a bull barrel and was an excellent gun - until it took a frag for me in Fallajuh.

I was actually able to get it repaired - those Springfields are tough. Still not wanting to press my luck, I replaced it with a Sig 220. The 220 looked pretty much exactly like the 226, but was chambered for the 45 caliber

(American Sniper, pg. 143-44 Harper Paper edition)

In 2012 MARSOC decided to order 12,000 new guns from Colt.

This is a sidearm for the Marines not the primary weapon.

From Zombietactics:

Given that the military is unusually slow to adopt new small-arms, it's not unusual that they would continue with the 1911 until there was pressure to do something better/different.

That pressure came in 1985 when the M9 and M11 were chosen and the bulk of the Corps and the rest of the military switched to the new guns and modern designs. It's been continuous since.

At any point they could have chucked the 1911 as nonviable. Nothing stopped them. They were down to 500 guns and they did not work reliably. Instead they rebuilt them till they thought they were reliable and kept using them in harsh conditions as they had been doing for extended periods of time. Then, in 2012 they a ordered a significant number of new ones for the first time in 67 years.

The 1911 is heavy compared to newer designs. Other guns carry more rounds. There are better choices for todays army and law enforcement. But many in special forces still believe it's a go to gun. So it's still used in limited rolls and will continue to be.

tipoc

 

[lee n. field]

Again one has to ask the question why do civilians focus so heavily on what people in the military carry?

Or cops for that matter. I'm neither. I don't care what the military uses, or that the FBI wants to switch back to 9mm. Why they're doing whatever they're doing, might be of interest. That they're doing it, does not affect me. I make my own decisions, and use what I find works for me. And I won't be running 50K rounds through mine, or have an armourer with a room full of parts to back me up.

I doubt either is using a .38 snub, or has a Kel Tec anything on their approved list.

 

[cslinger]

Food for thought. Most folks don't have the time and or money to vet a large number of arms and while what a given PD or military organization has little if any actual representation of the 99%, it is however a good way to garner a lot of actual hard use data on what works and what doesn't so when it is time to buy my one and only pistol I might look towards a Glock 19 vs say a Taurus 24/7 not because it will make me an operator nor will I use it like an operator but I can be reasonably assured it is a good pistol with a proven and documented history of much harder use then I will throw at it. Not a bad thing to know when dropping 500 to a couple grand on a pistola imo.

Besides its the balaclava that makes you a real operator. Everybody knows that.

 

[herdman]

I have some military experience and know some special ops guys(in different areas). As for pistols, they have used everything from M9, 1911, G19, G26, and HK.

I asked a Army special ops guy what they used in terms of a handgun and he said majority of the time they just went with the M9 and it worked for them. He said he like it because he shot it well and 9mm was readily available if they were embedded with the regular joes or hand to get extra ammo, magazines, parts, etc.

He also said if it got down to having to use a pistol it was a FUBAR situation most of the time. Said he grabbed the M9 and rolled on most of the time.

I also went to an Army special ops weapon display one time and there were two pistols on the table. The M9 and a Glock 19. No 1911. These high speed guys can roll with what they want to a lot of times. Many times they can take what they shoot best or what they are familiar with. The pistol probably is down on their list of priorities.

 

[tipoc]

Again one has to ask the question why do civilians focus so heavily on what people in the military carry?

Well most civilians don't. But gun people do.

Gun folks like to know what the ballistics improvements of a 30/30 are with the newer Hornady FTX Leverevolution ammo is even if they don't hunt with a levergun.

Gun folks like to know what ammo, scope and rifle combinations a Marine sniper might use even if they are not a sniper and don't shoot people.

They might read an article about the latest pistol from CZ even if they don't intend to buy one.

They want to see a video of Jerry Miculik shoot a S&W M&P at 300 yards and discuss it.

They want to debate why the Army went for the M16.

They like to debate what guns a certain police dept. adopts even if they aren't cops and don't live in that town.

They like guns and like talking about them. That's why. Do they need a better reason?

If so ask again and folks will start making some up.

tipoc

 

[Noreaster]

Also the military or LEO use of a firearm can bring to surface a defect or weak area that needs to be addressed by the manufacturer. An example is a friend who works for one of the top three US firearm manufacturers. He developed a firearm with many thousands or rounds and hours of use in trials before being released. After a year or so of use a weak point of the firearm, a couple of weak points and the firearm was fixed and offered in a new version. Even a small PD can discover something, try going to the range with four shotguns for two days and eighty guys qualifying with fifty rounds each. If it's going to break this is when it will happen.

 

[johnelmore]

If you are a soldier or a Marine and find yourself with a pistol in hand than something has gone horribly wrong. Your rifle jammed beyond repair or it ran out of ammo, etc., so thats why you have the pistol in hand. In the world of warfare, the pistol is the last resort item.

In the civilian world, the pistol is the firearm of first resort most of the time for most people.

 

[Jeff22]

M1911 pistols

"The U.S. military issued the 1911 until replaced in the 1980s. It last ordered new 1911s at the end of the Second World War."

I was in the Military Police in the Army National Guard in the late 1980s. We had M1911A1 pistols (they didn't get M9s until after they came back from Desert Storm)

We had several guns that said "Model of 1911" on the slide. Which means those slides were made prior to the introduction of the A1 which I think was in 1927 . . .

 

[mes228]

Glock

Doesn't surprise me in the least anyone chooses the Glock 19. If you remember a real CIA Operator was arrested in Pakistan some time ago. He was ultimately released after millions $$$ payment to the Pakistani's. He successfully killed two would be robbers. He said they were kidnappers not robbers.

The Pakistani Police photographed and listed what the Operator had on him at his arrest. I thought it interesting to learn what a real Spy/Operator carried. Well, for a weapon he carried a Glock 19 and several loaded mags (I think 5 if I remember correctly). Approx. 75 or so rounds of loose ammo (memory). Extra cell phone batteries and some other things. I have no idea how he carried the loose ammo.

 

[mes228]

Glock 9mm - What A CIA Operator Carried

I found the list of what CIA Operator Raymond Davis had on him when arrested in Pakistan for killing two robbers/kidnappers. I cut & pasted it below.

1. Glock 9 mm pistol (1)

2. 9 mm pistol magazine (5)

3. Ammunition, 9 mm pistol (75)

4. Tracker alongwith charger (1) [Remarks: GPS map 60 CSX]

5. Purse (1)

6. Wireless set (1)

7. Wireless set battery (1)

8. Cutter (2)

9. Mobile along with 1x battery (2) [Remarks: Nokia 6300, 1100]

10. Head torch (1)

11. Digital camera (1)

12. Small telescope (1)

13. Small torch (1)

14. Bandage (5)

15. QuikClot (1)

16. Hyfin chest seal (1) [Remarks: Mask]

17. Integrity Medical (1)

18. Health care Stike (1)

19. Simple light torch (1)

20. Priority 1 Immediate (1)

21. Cyalum chemical light(3)

22. Rescue products (2)

23. Needle decompression (1)

24. Rusch Sterile (1)

25. Notice card (1)

26. Duracell AA batteries (8)

27. Key Honda Civic (1) [Remarks: LED 10-680]

28. Diary (1)

29. Packet Tobacco (1)

30. Handbag (1)

31. Keychain with key (1) [Remarks: Alongwith 2x V-Card-Contact Card]

32. Contact cards (18)

33. Memory card (1)

34. Pakistani currency (Total: Rs. 5,605/-) [Remarks: Rs. 1000*5, 100*4, 50*3, 20*2, 10*1, 5*1]

35. American Dollars (Total: $ 126) [Remarks: $ 100*1, 20*1, 5*1, 1*1]

36. ATM Bank Cards (5)

37. Copy of PIA ticket (1)

38. Receipt money exchange (1)

39. Receipt Al-Falah bank (1)

40. Chit Embassy (1)

41. Black Cheque (2) [Remarks: USAA Federal Saving Bank]

 

[micromontenegro]

Very misleading title.

 

[Mystro]

Kinda misleading title but probably aimed to Glock fans.

 

[tipoc]

It's like you can tell when the Glock marketing Dept. gears up. They are as subtle as Putin. "Who Me? Am I killing my opponents? No! They are killing themselves to make me look bad."

tipoc

 

[Model12Win]

Yeah the title is misleading for sure, makes it seem like the Marines ditched the M1911 which of course they did not.

I think the 1911 is a great gun with it's better accuracy and excellent stopping power. The Glock 19 is a good choice too, it's quite a bit lighter and more compact and has greater firepower, but is less accurate with less stopping power.

Different weapons for different missions methinks.

 

[TunnelRat]

I thought it interesting to learn what a real Spy/Operator carried. Well, for a weapon he carried a Glock 19 and several loaded mags (I think 5 if I remember correctly). Approx. 75 or so rounds of loose ammo (memory).

I found the list of what CIA Operator Raymond Davis had on him when arrested in Pakistan for killing two robbers/kidnappers. I cut & pasted it below.

1. Glock 9 mm pistol (1)

2. 9 mm pistol magazine (5)

3. Ammunition, 9 mm pistol (75)

Sounds to me like it wasn't 75 rds of loose ammo, but that they merely inventoried the ammunition separate from the magazines (15*5=75). I seriously doubt he would carry 75 rds of loose ammo.

 

[Tucker 1371]

I was a little surprised when MARSOC (Now Raiders) went with the 1911. I am a huge 1911 fan but there is no doubt that the gun requires a LOT of TLC to run right, and not just on the gun itself but the magazines as well.

This doesn't come as a huge surprise to me and I'm actually glad Raider's are being given a choice.

Honestly what handgun to carry is an extremely personal choice, the 1911 isn't for everyone. Neither is the G19. I'm sure you would see a fairly even mix of both on MARSOC training ranges.

 

[Skans]

...what CIA Operator Raymond Davis had on him when arrested in Pakistan

Makes you wonder if he was carrying an AF-2011 Black Magic Double Barrel 45acp Pistol rather than a Glock, he might not be in that predicament.

 

[Rob228]

The shooters with MARSOC have been carrying Glock 19's for a few years already. When the MSOBs first stood up they had a run of Kimber warriors made for them, those stayed in the armory.

When I was a shooter with 3rd Recon Bn we carried MEUSOC 1911's. As a good 50% of our job involved something with the water, I'd have taken a G19 in a heartbeat.

 

[zombietactics]

The Glock 19 is a good choice too, it's quite a bit lighter and more compact and has greater firepower, but is less accurate with less stopping power.

The first part of the statement regarding accuracy is - generally speaking - factually correct. The second part is simply repeating gun-counter nonsense ... 'cuz physics and medical evidence and science, etc.

 

[zombietactics]

... the gun requires a LOT of TLC to run right, and not just on the gun itself but the magazines as well.

I think the 1911 suffers more from mag problems than anything else. The design could be made damned-near perfect with a few tweaks, but there is strong culturally-driven resistance to doing anything too far removed from Browning's "perfect" design,