US Army: Modular Handgun System

There is no evidence that the U.S. military is switching to another handgun, or rather handguns plural. The M9 and M11 are available to it right now as well as others.

The U.S. military don't have a problem with 9mm. They like it just fine.

They don't want to replace the M9 and keep ordering more of them.

They have the M11 as well.

Women with big and small hands regularly qualify, so that is not an issue.

Every three months, for the last 20 years these same rumors pop up so that some intern over at "Military Times" or somewhere can impress their boss with how many hits they can generate for their website.

Gun forums like it cuz it's the same debate over and over and fellas get bored with other topics.

tipoc
 
IIRC one of the selling points for the 9MMP aside from NATO standardization was its higher velocity gave greater penetration against thicker clothing. And more people could shoot it well.
The search for the "more effective" handgun round, like the search for the "more effective" rifle round-it locks in appropriations and provides some people with career security.
 
I do not wish to hijack this.thread, but I have a question. Say the military replaces the m9, could this mean a supply of cheaper berets for a while for some of us who would want one?
 
could this mean a supply of cheaper berets for a while for some of us who would want one?

I'm not sure I need a new beret. I mean more colors couldn't hurt, but I rarely wear the ones I have now.
 
the M11 is in as limited of use as the 1911s that MARSOC ordered last year.

Cite a source for this please.

The distribution of the M11 and M11-A1 is wider then the MARSOC 1911s. To compare them is a mistake.

The M11 has been in use since the M9 was adopted. The M11-A1 is an adapted version of the M11. Run a search for these and you'll see the length of service and extent of it, for the Navy, Coast Guard, Air Force, U.S. Army and others.

tipoc
 
Before folks get all excited about a new handgun for the Army releasing M9's for sale through CMP, it might be well to note that the law establishing CMP bans them from selling handguns. That was part of a compromise with the fanatic left, led by Ted Kennedy, who wanted a total ban on all arms sales by the government to individuals, as a prelude to his dream of "total domestic disarmament."

A change to the law is quite impossible at this time, and for the foreseeable future.

Jim
 
James nailed it, no M9's. And to add salt to the wound, Clinton had the 1911's ground up for scrap. First he killed the CMP, then he had the contract running for 24/7 operations to get rid of them. No more Singers, Union Switch, nada. Gone forever. Over 250K disappeared.

The M9's won't likely be given away as military support precisely because the 450,000 Berettas from that recent contract were. They didn't replace what we had, they were given away to Iraq and others.

Seriously, I always thought a single multi-caliber platform such as the Glock or M&P which allows you to train on one system and tailor hand sizes and calibers as needed would be a logical choice.

MHS is a lot more about this - and a steel frame 1911 can't even begin to do that. You can't have the user or unit armorer change out the backstrap at that moment to fit, you can't just swap a different sized slide on any lower, etc. It will take the kind of close quality control to get parts to interchange, which the 1911 has never ever enjoyed. And it will likely have to stay inside one caliber for the kit, the issue with the larger calibers is that too many were transplanted to the 9mm without reengineering and that is why they don't hold up well. The Army has NEVER offered alternate calibers in their firearms, and even more tightly restricted the ammo load to a single specific recipe in order to maximize reliability. We already read to often about WWB not cycling correctly in M4geries, the whole point to Army ammo is to use a single high quality round exclusively because all the weapons are tuned to it alone. That is how you get things to work, not by making it a one size fits all and accepting a huge number of problems.

A system of two, maybe three different frames with different grip lengths, slides and barrels the same, alternate backstraps, a pic rail on the front, and the service will get what they need - across the board. But the unit? Nope. It's driven by MTOE - an officer or MP carrying a holstered gun gets the full size duty version and no other parts are authorized. The benefit for the maker is they can use a lot of the same machinery, the benefit for the service is they will reduce the number of different sources - but the disadvantage is that there will be only the one. That still won't affect the special units, tho, as they get what they want when they want.

So, the General and CID can have the cut down version, the troops that carry still get the big duty pistols and very little will have actually changed.

That is if the project isn't actually a sacrificial lamb for the budget process. The rule is ask for more than you need, and then you get what you really want. I see the project as something that won't survive the next budget battle and the service crying some crocodile tears over it complaining they need to spend less on keeping the old fleet going. But the track record? They have been there and can do it. The 1911 and B52 kept going, in some cases barely a shell of what they originally were as parts were continuously replaced. We've seen M16's become A1's, and many of both are still in service with the Air Force, too. Some very old Hydramatics were noted floating around overseas with some units, in great condition.

Much ado about nothing, I won't be surprised to read the program cancelled after a few prototypes get made and we gush over them. It's all about the dog and pony show, replacing a minor side arm in a major budget slashing period of history is not likely.
 
Well I hope if its true I would love to see them go with a CZ,P06 in 357sig. I myself think they should be thinking of upping the ar15. Like going with a piston upper & in 6.8 caliber. The hell with the 5.56 it just does not get the job done. So the way I see it 6.8 & 7.62 Nato(308) for rifle's & 357sig for the side arm. And we are the big guys on the block as far as Nato go's & we should push our weight around to get the rest of Nato to go along with it. After all we pay for most of all of Nato! JMO.
 
my 5 cents (repost from the closed parallel thread):

1.) all considered, I wouldn't be surprised if this was much ado about nothing again, and they will stick with the M9 or some upgrade...

2.) While most will agree that neither pistol round has a great "stopping power", of course penetration (doors, magazines worn close to the the body, other obstacles...) is an issue. So, why don't they consider 9mm with an optimized round? The Russians and this Belgian company (interesting video, moreover!) have successfully upgraded the 9mm penetration ability in a way that would make much of the ongoing discussion obsolete (and any surplus 9mm ammo could still be used for training).

3.) .40 & .357: It seems those are seen as the potential candidates to replace the 9mm. These might indeed penetrate barriers or body-worn equipment a little better, yet to the expense of more wear on the platforms, being harder to handle for a regular soldier, and making less sense when used with the proposed suppressor.

4.) .45: Is of course an obvious candidate, yet: even inferior (to 9mm) penetration, a little harder to handle still, quite easy to suppress since SS by default (yet not optimal due to the larger diameter)...

5.) 5,7: I wonder why this caliber has not been considered a little more in discussions so far. It is easy to handle, without doubt a good penetrator, yet it's SS version will perform slightly better than a .22lr at best...
 
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Unless we think our battles will be relegated to 3rd world backwaters for another 50 years, we'd better bank on meeting body armor. That means +9 mm calibers are an incredibly bad idea. Now that H&K has lost a lot of their clout and market share (as far as modern military weapons) I don't think they'd have the pull to stymie 5.7x28 a second time. It was the future 10 years ago, and it still is, and while not perfect it is a step in the right direction.

TCB
 
Modern designs overcome the pressures of the .40.

The recoil on a full size Sig, M&P or Glock Gen. 4 in .40 is nothing. If you can't handle it, you're not fit for combat or beat duty.

.40 is already ubiquitous with the DHS contract and numerous LEO agreements, Lake City is already tooled up. In Dallas, .40 is often at the same price point as 9mm for domestic offerings.

It is reported in many circles that Delta Force is using the Glock 22.
 
It seems like the US Military bigwigs think they'll find a single handgun that anyone and everyone can shoot comfortably and effectively, guarantees a one-hit kill no matter what you hit and where, and will never get dirt in the holes that other things have to come out of.

Good luck with that.

Meantime in the real world, most military forces recognize that handguns are the weapon of next-to-last resort (just before knives and fists), and often all you want is to be able to fire off shots to keep your opponents heads down while you seek better cover and/or a better weapon.

9x19mm Parabellum is the caliber choice for almost all modern military forces. Choose something else and you're creating a lot of logistical problems for your forces.

Glock 17 or 19 is a common military choice, and would provide commonality with UK forces alongside which American forces have been known to fight.
 
On several occasions in the last century, the US has created (or brought from obscurity) several new calibers to feed new weapon systems. .308, 30-06, .223, etc.

If the US decides to adopt a new handgun system and place a huge order of weapons and ammo, why not take the opportunity to find a new cartridge and create a handgun to best handle it?

.357 Sig has a lot of followers, but bottle neck cartridges are really inefficient for magazine space. if you want a hotter 9mm, use 9x23 and get 2 more rounds in the mag. Or use the more size efficient .45 GAP if it must be .45.

While I wouldn't normally recommend offbeat calibers, whatever the military adopts will become hum-drum ordinary the next week. Most current cartridges are either really dated, or compromises that repackaged well (like .357 Sig and .40). If they want the best performance from a given bullet size, design the cartridge and gun around it.


Of course, 9mm Luger is actually an extremely efficient and feed reliable design for a .355 cartridge. Georg got it right. All these short ogive, semi-rimmed and bottle neck cartridges are messy in comparison.
 
The distribution of the M11 and M11-A1 is wider then the MARSOC 1911s.

SIG was rather effective with the misleading advertising, which hinted that US military issues and uses something called the M11-A1. But that is not so. Only an M11 has been issued. The M11-A1 name is really a SIG 229 version with a different name, for civilian sales appeal.

There have been nice long threads on this subject here and in the SIG Forum.

I own the Beretta 92 and the SIG 228 and think that the SIG would be a fine gun for further US use, in one of the many SIG 229 versions. The only real problem I see in the M92 is the bulkiness of the grip for those with smaller hands. And like it or not, some pistol users will be small-handed men or women.

I will not even start to get into the caliber confusion.

Bart Noir
 
Here for your reference...

From 2011:

http://www.armytimes.com/article/20110828/NEWS/108280315/Pistols-shot-replacing-M9

The Army Times is not a publication of the U.S. military.

From 2012, U.S. Army orders 100,000 new M9s.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/09/17/u-s-army-awards-new-contract-for-beretta-m9/

Discussions in the Air Force in 2013 came to nothing so once more someone is pushing for a new round...

Fox News and others (S&W, FN?) are also pumping some.

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine....sContinuetoReplaceArmy,AirForceSmallArms.aspx

If you use Google or the search here you'll see these rumors and discussions stretch back over a decade.

tipoc
 
Yeah, about SIG... our military may have trouble getting imported goods from them for the foreseeable future, so they'd be limited to whatever they are able to produce on this side of the Atlantic. I would also understand SIG's reticence about doing business at all with our federal government, at least until this export-ban spat back in Germany blows over (and then they'd be on double-secret probation thereafter, I'm sure). Unless SIG moves its HQ here, I assume they'd be under some pressure to avoid even domestic sales, if Germany wishes to penalize us for passing their guns along to Columbians through the DoD. Hopefully our "oversight" was an isolated incident, and other makers in Germany/the EU won't be barred from dealing with us.

TCB
 
the whole issue can be solved, if you gave your troops a real rifle, like a m1 garand or that nice .308 we had for a while in the 60s, then you wont have to worry about supplying handguns to the troops to use for finishing off wounded enemies.
 
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