Unusual percussion double shotgun

I hope I'm not boring you with my shotgun chronicles, but here are some pics with both plugs removed.

The bad bolt/plug removed. You can see that whoever was trying to find a flash hole, didn't, and drilled right through the plug.
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And here you can see that they even scarred the other side of the actual breech plug while drilling the into the bolt/plug.
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here you can see the undrilled (or plugged up with something hard) bolt/plug breech face. I need to scrape it see what it is. Might be lead.
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and lastly, the difference between the good(ish) bolt plug (notice how there's a concave breech face as well) and the bad bolt/plug (no concave face and not drilled through). Was it plugged intentionally?
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Truly amazing , . If it were not for having to shape the back down to expose the threads , I would have to say ; pretty dam ingenious .

Personally I would have made new plugs but ?????

Ok so . Next thing I would do is looking from the breech end , look down into the holes and see if there is a face that the plugs you just took out , screw up against .
Some originals did not have this face for the plugs to seal to . What they duid however have was runout on the threads .IE the thread on the plug was longer then the thread in the barrel . As such the longer thread would distort and seal off . Thus not allowing pressure to escape down the thread and end up fouling and eventually corroding the thread

Since the plugs you just took out look to be much bigger then bore , there should be a face for the plugs to seal against .
This them begs the question ; do they seal ?
Maybe the reason the right plug wasn’t finished was because it wouldn’t seal .

So lets check that .
Start by cleaning off the face of the left hand plug .. Then we want to coat the face with inletting black .
For inletting black you can use candle soot , lipstick ,,,,, myself I just use a black sharpie marker .

Once you have the face all colored , screw the plug back in and snug it up .
Test to make sure your standing tree/ standing breech , fits properly .
Then you want to take the plug back out .
Look at the face of the plug where you colored it with inletting black . The color should be removed in a nice ring around the edge of the plug face . This is caused by the plug contacting the face inside the barrels . In doing so , sealing the threads .
Now repeat that with the right hand plug . If it also seals then we are good to continue with the mind that the plugs are sealing properly . Thus not getting the right hand plug to seal wasn’t the problem as to why it wasn’t finished .

Next I would look at the threads themselves . Specifically how much thread you have actually inside the original plugs , forward of the nipple hole . While its hard to tell you without seeing the actual plug first hand . There IMO should be at least 5/8 to ¾ of an inch of thread forward of the drilled nipple hole .
Also the thread should closely match each other . IE once you start the plug and you get a couple threads forward of the nipple hole , you should not have a lot of play . Thus by the time you get to the bottom , the plug should not be moving side to side at all .

Myself , if I could match the threads as well as the pitch of the threads , I would just make and fit a new plug. . You may be able to find someone who can weld the nipple hole closed . At least the bottom , and then re thread ??? But again it maybe easier just to make a new plug .
Again im not holding the piece , so I cant tell you if there would be enough material in the bottom of the old plug to make the breech of the barrels for the right hand barrel . Im sorry but I just cant say
 
so how do the threads end ?
are the plugs just a thread size over .410 ?

can you shoot me a photo looking down the bore
 
I couldn't see it looking at light through the bore, but held at the right angle with light straight into the breech area, I think I see the faces you are talking about.

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The flecks of red in the right side are from a piece of red tshirt I used for patches to clean the barrels. So to see if the plugs bottom out on those faces I'll try the sharpie trick. I think I'll freeze the plugs so they go in easier. They were hard to get out. Very tight.

And another thing I discovered is that the right side plug never had a flash hole bored through. What looks like something plugged it up on the end is only a circular scratched area that I made twisting a worm and a ball puller on it. It is hard steel, not lead or something softer than steel.
 

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there looks to be a face on moth barrel for the plugs to face to .
the left barrel looks good . but is it just the photo or does not the threads in the right barrel not go all the way to the face ?
 
Good catch. I'll have to look closer. So what would be involved in getting new "actual" breech plugs put on these barrels, and if the old breech plugs won't come off, I imagine the barrels could be cut, re-threaded for plugs, and new breech plugs fabricated and fitted. Then just a matter of removing and shifting the barrels wedge slot. So the barrels would be a couple inches shorter, but I could live with that.

OR

I could have two new bolts fitted and drilled with flash channels, like the ones on it now, but fitted better.
 
First let me say the Bill Brockway has a very good book on making SXS shotguns from scratch .
Bill covers everything from making locks to making breech plugs that will be fit to old breech loading barrels so as to convert them to muzzle loading application
Recreating the Double Barrel Muzzleloading Shotgun,
by William R. Brockway.
When Bill first wrote this book , I jumped right in for a signed copy .and immediately began a review and build . Since then I bet I have built , 20 , maybe 30 SXS and I still go back to the book to reference. So if your thinking of doing the work yourself , get bills book .

When it comes to taking the original plugs out . You best fit the barrel to a proper SXS barrel jig or your likely to twist the barrels apart .
There also is the possibility that the reason this SXS was built this way is that someone could not get the original plugs out Not to mention that if the threads don’t go all the way to the bottom on the right hand barrel , they may very well have left the breech un drilled for that reason ???? I don’t know , just guessing frankly ,when it comes to that .

Ok past that . . Making new plugs of the type you have ,isn’t all that hard . Its just time consuming . Even if you have a lathe. . Then after turning , you have a lot of file work not only to make the hooks but to also shape the right hand plug so that it carries the center rib and wraps partially around the left plug . Again Bill covers how to do all that .
But making the plugs in the way seen in Belgium and Birmingham , IE what you have , is much more drawn out then using say a Germanic style .
The barrels when finished will look the same while in the stock . Its just when you take the barrels out , you will see that the breech plugs are shaped differently .

At this point , this is what I would tell you to do .
Take your barrels and plugs to a gunsmith . Not gist any gunsmith but one that’s familiar with muzzle loading guns . They also need to be an Actual Gunsmith , not a parts assembler as you may want them to do the work for you .

Also because they actually have the barrels in hand , they can better discern why this piece was done this way , then I can clear across the country. Not to mention by actually looking at the barrels first hand , one would be able to tell as to if the breech area of the barrels are welded up and thus the breeching lines Faux as you stated OR possibly actual joints as I suspect . .

But know up front this . Chances are that re breaching this piece with proper plugs , is most likely going to cost you more then what you paid for it or what its worth .
It is a .410 so you have that going for you . But she also is a Belgium .
 
Im still wondering if the situation with that left hand plug isn’t one of the threads not going to the face and thus the plug was made to short and it didn’t seal . To make maters worse , they drilled to deep with the flash channel . Possibly thinking they had already drilled and counter drilled the plug . When in fact they have not. In other words one of those shop G@# DAMITS that happen to the best of us .
The gun got set aside and later liquidated or the person who did the work , just decided that it would be far simpler for them just to use one barrel .
Really there are any number of reasons why or how this could have came about .

In the end , the real elephant in the room is one of ; is it safe they way it was done ?

Personally, while IMO its not the right way to do it ,,,, as long as the original plugs have threads that are not corroded and leaking . That these plugs you took out , also face and seal so as to not leak , then I can see no reason why the breeching wouldn’t be safe .
So making a new left hand plug wouldn’t be all that big of an issue .
The barrels are old , so keep that in mind . Small calibers for the most part deal with a lot higher pressures then larger calibers . So I would keep your loads light , regardless of what you do . Even if you go to the expense of having them totally re- breeched .
 
LOL Gary .
probably an education on figuring out how to read through my misspelling and bad typing . Sorry about that folks .
Noelf2 .
There isn’t much that’s more graceful then a properly built early SXS . I believe you will truly enjoy Bills book .
Be sure to let me know how things turn out
 
Sorry for reviving this old thread, but I figured if anyone was interested in the outcome of this adventure I'd fill them in. A year ago, almost to the day, I left the 410 double with a gunsmith in Virginia who has an excellent reputation for repairing old guns (he has a serious backlog). He managed to repair and finish the breech plug that was never bored through. He should have the shotgun put back together for me by Saturday. Can't wait to shoot it!
 
No matter how it turns out, it's still a useful piece, if the remaining barrel is good.
Nothing wrong with only loading one barrel, instead of two.
Half the work.
I often do that with my BP revolver.
Loading just one chamber, out of pure laziness
But now that's it's fixed, all should be well.
Unless it shoots around corners.
 
True, but I sure do like two barrels :)
I'm just hoping nothing else falls apart when he puts it back together. Definitely going to keep my loads light in this old girl.
 
If nothing else, it will always look cool hanging over the fireplace.
I once had a Zouave replica that was a terrible shooter.
But it looked great hanging on the wall.
For some reason, flintlocks and percussions are real eye catchers, even among folks whose major interests are tennis and golf.
 
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