Unusual percussion double shotgun

[Captchee]

well thats to bad .
but all is not lost . as long as the barrel itself has not been damaged , a new plug is all thats needed .
getting the plug out might not be fun if they drilled through and distorted the threads on the plug though .
as was mentioned , the cost is something of a concern . if you know someone with a michine shop , turning a new plug would not be a big ordeal. ifyou can get the old one out

 

[44 Dave]

I have seen nipples with over sized threads listed some where, may be Dixie Gun Works.

 

[noelf2]

Nipple fits fine. No problem there. There's just no hole for the fire to get to the powder. It could be as Captchee said, the flash hole may never have been drilled through the breech plug on that side. I'm only speculating, but either someone tried to drill a flash hole from the nipple side of the breech plug and, of course, couldn't find it at that angle and drilled too far. Or they had trouble with the nipple and tried to fill and re-drill the hole (but there's no indication that the original nipple hole threads were damaged in any way). Not sure. Perhaps a gunsmith can drill out the hole all the way to the under side of the breech plug, then thread the hole and put a steel screw in there (sort of like the cleanout screw on the drum of a T/C Hawken). Then drill out the flash channel with a rod and drill bit long enough to go into the bore and through to the hole in the breech plug. Way too complicated for me, but a pro might be able to do it.

 

[Hawg]

Take the breech plug out and see whats going on.

 

[noelf2]

Yeah I'd love to, but considering my luck so far with this shotgun, I'd end up breaking off the hook. The tang hooks on this 410, as well as the breech plugs, are little bitty. Anyone know a good black powder gunsmith that would be willing to give this thing a go? Or confirm it's a goner?

 

[Pahoo]

Sure wish I could help !!!

Anyone know a good black powder gunsmith that would be willing to give this thing a go?

I would think that any of the "Old-School" custom guys might be of help to you. I know a few in my area and there has to be a few in yours. You have a very nice piece and if it were mine, I'd try and bring it back. Try making contact with some BuckSkinner" clubs, in your area and see what they say.

Take Care and;
Be Safe !!!

 

[noelf2]

Thanks Pahoo. I did call a guy that's a couple hours drive from me, in Singers Glen, VA. I explained the issues the best I could, and he wants to see some pics. He specializes in fixing up heirloom guns into working condition, and can fabricate parts. Rates aren't too bad either. Of course this shotgun isn't an heirloom, but if I dump enough money in it ... it damn sure will be one.

 

[4V50 Gary]

I'm working on a 12 ga double barrel shotgun that looks very much like the one in the upper image. I'll get some pictures of it tomorrow. At this link are some closeup of the barrel and its markings.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=550052

Turning to the issue of the .410, I think those barrels are soldered together and are permanently affixed to the breechplugs. It's not that they can't be disassembled, but the solder has to be removed, allowing the ribs to be taken off and then the barrels separated from the breechplug.

 

[Captchee]

i have never seen a set of barrels that were breeched then joined not even on very , VERY cheep models . I have seen them with welded plugs .

if you look closly you should see that one plug screws insid the other plug Gary . IE one plug has to come out first brefore the other one can be turned

 

[noelf2]

Here's a look at the breech plugs and hooks on this 410. You can pretty much see the round plugs under the hooks especially on the right side. These plugs do not appear to overlap:

A view into the bad side flash hole. Just a hole drilled down into the breech plug and no flash hole into the barrel.

The proofs on the bottom of the barrels:

 

[noelf2]

Pic of the "made in belgium" stamp on the right side barrel:

And a profile of the shotgun without the nipples and ramrod.

 

[Captchee]

BOY!!! . Is tat something or what ????
Kind of scratching my head here
1) what you see clearly as a round line around the hook on the right side and on the left side if you look close .
Myself I would say that those lines are not the plugs but threaded in hooks . While I have seen that done on French SXS “ normally buttons “, I have never seen it where they drilled the nipple holes through the threaded hooks
2) here is why I don’t think they are the actual plugs .
A) If you look at the photo where we see; Made in Belgium., the line you see on the barrel is the actual plug where it mates to the barrel. Then there is a threaded section inside the barrel
B) if you look at the photo of the breech area . Same one where you see the circle on the right hook .
If you look closely you will see a faint line that starts on the left side of what would be the bottom rib . It then curves up and end on the left side of the top rib .
That line means that the left hand plug must be removed first as its actually inside the right plug . IE the right plug wraps part of the left plug .
Add into that the index mark . that’s the mark you see running off the back of the left side of the center rib , down, across the line I just pointed out ,.
What this index mark is , is a mark that place on a breech plug and barrel , to insure that if the plug is removed , its put back exactly as it was originally meant to
So if you were to try and take out the actual plug . You would take out the left hand plug , then take out the right . When the righ began to unscrew , you would see that the short section of center rib that’s between the two plugs , is actual part of the right hand plug

On the left plug what is that round dot /spot , is that a weld inclusion or is it the end of a pin ?????

So what do we have . Well its hard to tell by looking at photos . But it would appear to me that what would normally be the breech plugs on a SXS has been drilled out . Making somewhat of a sleeve . The hooks were then threaded into that sleeve. If im right in that , then the hooks then become the actual breech plugs .
In other words if you were to apply pressure to the right hand hook , it should just unscrew out of what would normally be the breech plug . Since it appears they have drilled the nipple holes after the plug was set , then I would bet that if you unscrewed the hook , you may in fact be seeing right down the bore
Is that how its supposed to be ??? B I have never seen one like that . But in theory , it should be fine to do . But why as it would be a lot more work .

Thus the possibility that at some time , someone needed to remove the breech plugs . But if they wouldn’t come out , then they would have filed off the hooks . Then center drilled the plugs so as to be able to access the bore . Then installed a bolt type plug . Then re drilled that plug for the nipple . But simply never got around to finishing the drilling of the right hand plug .

Anyway , im not sure that all makes since to you , but that’s what im seeing .
As to what to do . Fix her and get her up shooting

 

[Captchee]

ohh forgot to mention , the 3 hash marks followed by a slash (III/) that’s the makers mark and should also bee seen on all the parts , if they are all from the same piece . Sometimes you see a different mark on the barrel vs. the rest of the gun . In those cases the gun was assembled from parts from different makers .
See a lot of these makes could not read or write their own names . Plus the would not get a Masters mark from the Guild tell such time as they made Master . So they used lines and slashes to identify their work

 

[noelf2]

Captchee I think I'm following you. i also believe that the hooks are functioning as the plugs. What might not be coming out in the pictures well is that the line you point out in the "made in belgium" picture doesn't appear to me to be a junction at all. The line is fake, like etched on or something, because it isn't consistent around the entire barrel (on either barrel). Look at the pic with the proof marks and you will see that the lines don't go all the way around the barrels. Also look at the picture of the nipple hole and you can see that the lines stop short of the top rib.

 

[Captchee]

picture doesn't appear to me to be a junction at all. The line is fake, like etched on or something, because it isn't consistent around the entire barrel (on either barrel). Look at the pic with the proof marks and you will see that the lines don't go all the way around the barrels. Also look at the picture of the nipple hole and you can see that the lines stop short of the top rib.

That might be the case but I seriously doubt it . But lets work on the premise that’s is true .
If it is then it means the back of the barrels have to be forged or forge welded closed or where turned from far larger barrel stock , so as to allow for the smaller bore and the smaller plug .

Now what im thinking your seeing and why the line looks as it does , is because that when the plug is fitted the maker then will do whats call striking . Striking is nothing more then drawing with different files , tell one creates a finish . .Think of it as sanding with different grits .

If you look on the bottom of the barrel . See those file marks / scratchs . Those are strike marks .

But anyway , in the process the joint of the plug will disappear. On better made guns , you in fact wont see the joint at all .
when i get home to night , i have some things i need to get done so as to be able to go to an event . but ill see if i can post some photos for you before i leave

 

[noelf2]

I'm figuring then that this shotgun is a lot older than I originally thought. Possible it was refinished in the past, and had the breech plugs drilled through to the barrel and some new plugs fabricated to put in those holes. I guess the only way to tell is to remove the right hook/plug (not the actual breech plug) and see if I see daylight through it. If that's the case, then maybe it can be re-done with new hook/plugs. I just wonder if, when the breech plugs were drilled through to the bore (if that's the case) the actual original breech plugs are weakened where they're threaded into the barrels. And, perhaps, the person that made those modifications decided the right side was unsafe and intentionally kept it inoperable.

 

[44 Dave]

Could you "get away with"?
Silver soldering a drill to a rod (say about 3/8"), with a sleeve, making some centering bushings, with careful calculations and a slow turning drill, maybe hand drill open the blocked area.

 

[Captchee]

Most certainly one could do that Dave . However if it were me doing the work , I would want to see what the deal is with how the drilling was done on the right barrel and exactly what was done with the hooks

As to the age of the barrels ?? By the proof marks , since there is no Crown on the prudential mark “LEG” has no crown , that should place it prior to 1893 . That however does not mean that’s when the gun was made . a lot of these barrels were imported and even more of them stored . As warehouses were found or bought up , cheaper guns were made from them and then marketed .
The other thing that could have happened is that someone bought an older piece and then restocked it . Very hard IMO to say unless you find those hash marks and slash on the stock . Which could be under the butt plate , under the barrels or under the TG on the wood
Here is a link for you to look up the markings .
http://shotguns.se/html/belgium.html

Also here is some originals for you to see the breech lines I was speaking of.
common Belgium

Early french flintlock

English flintlock

 

[noelf2]

Well that's a lot older than I thought. I think I will have to have a gunsmith check it out to see if it can even safely be shot from the left barrel. I will look around the butt plate and wood to see if there are any of the same maker marks.

Those are some nice looking flintlock shotguns!

 

[noelf2]

Ok I went for broke, and I think this confirms that the breech plugs were drilled through to the barrel, and bolts were used to fashion plugs and hooks. Captchee was spot on in his assessment. The bolt/plug out is the one on the left that actually has a flash channel. Now that it's out of the way, I should be able to twist off the bad side and see what's going on with that plug, and why it didn't get a flash channel like the left side.