Uberti 1858 quest for positive lock.

[CajunPowder]

Uberti 1858 New Model Army Stainless Steel Target

arcticap:

After I return the Uberti I'm photographing and reviewing here I will inspect the exchange and if it passes a cursory inspection by myself, my RO and my gunsmith it goes DIRECTLY to Jay Strite for the basics and perhaps a muzzle crown. We'll see what Jay has to say. I'm going to get a good one to start me off, that much I know. Thanks for your participation here.

Hardcase:

Always carefully REMOVE the Chianti bottle from the rigid grip of the Italian electrician. They are fond of keeping themselves "grounded" by maintaining a tight grip on the grapes.

Hawg, Doc:

Thank you for continuing to add your knowledge to this thread and keep us all on track with respect to some extremely important details.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com:

Thanks for hanging in there with this thread.

azsixgun:

Just to make absolutely certain all of us understand the model of Uberti revolver I'm photographing and documenting in this thread here it is:

The above picture is from Uberti's newest website, http://www.ubertireplicas.com .

This next picture is of the Uberti revolver I am photographing for review and discussion in this thread:

I try to keep up with all the vendors and websites that might even only "possibly" offer the Uberti 1858 New Army Model revolver in 44 caliber and stainless steel with an adjustable rear sight and front blade sight.

Before I purchased the first Pietta model of this revolver, (non-target), I did a HUGE amount of research and reading on black powder, black powder revolvers and then replicas. I shopped and studied as many offerings of the Remington New Army model as I could find. It wasn't until after the first Pietta lemon from "C's" that I got serious about researching Uberti versus Pietta. And then I began to research the vendors themselves.

The first Pietta model I ordered was much more of a lemon than the Uberti I am photographing and documenting in this thread, (it was REALLY bad for that kind of money).

Interestingly, only Uberti's "newest" version of their website indicates this model, (adjustable sights in stainless steel), is produced by Uberti. You can see it at http://www.ubertireplicas.com, (the first picture displayed in this post).

The old Uberti website here DOES NOT show the model you and I want.

I tend to agree with your observation that only Dixie currently has these models in stock.

I too called Texas Jack's and they do not have this model in stock and do not offer it at all. One cannot obtain it from Texas Jack's. One can obtain it through Taylor's, (and it is a special order), and it is much more expensive than Dixie. Taylors, (to the best of my knowledge), does not regularly stock this model. The CEO of Taylors seems to be very nice and informative.

I find this model advertised here also:

1.) http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products/bpRemingtonCollection.tpl (no price stated).

2.) http://www.intlmidway.com/intl/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?SaleItemID=571139

Interestingly midwayusa just stopped listing this model.

Here are the pictures of the Proofs and factory markings found on this revolver:

FIGURE 04: Proofs and Factory marks on the frame.

FIGURE 05: Proofs and Factory marks on the Barrel.

FIGURE 06: Proofs and Factory marks on the Cylinder

- The infamous Uberti disclaimer found underneath the barrel, (covered up by the loading lever), does appear on this revolver.

I have more photos to share which I've had big fun taking and are proving to be a very good learning experience for me. I appreciate all of the knowledge and sincerity that is coming into this thread. When we help each other with guns, it's a type of concern that cannot be valued in a normal way.

One of my goals with this thread is to determine where the line is. When do you KEEP it and fix it up yourself per the "kit mentality" ... and when do you send it back in dissappointment and hope for a better one in exchange. And also, when do you keep it and send it to Jay Strite, (or a gunsmith of similar abilities), to work one into an exceptional example by spending some more money.

 

[CajunPowder]

Cal. 44 black powder only - a. Uberti italy

----------
FIGURE 07:

Infamous Uberti disclaimer found underneath the barrel, (covered up by the loading lever).

So who's gonna figure it out? Is this REALLY an Uberti? I don't know, I don't have the experience and knowledge to tell.

The revolver I have been reviewing and photographing is for sale here:

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_92_187_189&products_id=4057

This is helping:

Modern Black Powder Proof Marks

The Dixie page says, "Manufactured in Italy by Uberti." If that is true the law requires that it have the "U" in the Octagon mark.

Do I have a "Frankenstein" revolver?

 

[arcticap]

I think that there's no way that a dealer can simply look inside of a box and be able to determine whether a revolver will have a hidden flaw or not.

So I would call and ask Dixie how they would handle another rejected revolver if you choose to ask for an exchange rather than a refund.

I know that you don't want to keep this revolver for many reasons. However the damage to your cylinder looks worse under magnification then to the naked eye. And at this point the actual damage is still cosmetic in that it doesn't affect function yet.
Since you plan on having gun smithing performed on any replacement that you might get anyway, I would further probe Dixie over the phone to see if they will work out a deal with you to either exchange your cylinder or sell you a replacement cylinder at a discount. You should explain that you're on the fence about the gun smithing expenses that will be incurred to have the gun fixed and that you feel that they should help you out so that you won't need to return the entire gun.
Feel them out because you'll most likely be paying to fix the next one too if you do decide to keep that.
And also because you will probably want to have a spare cylinder anyway. So even though the cylinder has cosmetic marks, the gun itself will be fixed and the cylinder should function just fine.

Uberti has failed to satisfy you twice now.

And if you leverage your request by assertively saying that you're thinking about asking them for a full refund, then you may be able to make some headway toward getting a deal for just the replacement cylinder that you really need to be on your way to being satisfied.

If you really don't want to keep the gun for all of the other reasons mentioned, then why gamble on another Uberti at all?

At least Cabela's doesn't have a problem exchanging a revolver model over and over again and you weren't willing to take a gamble on another Pietta.

However I'm concerned that Dixie might not be so tolerant if the next gun is unsatisfactory and/or worse than the one that you've already received.

 

[mykeal]

the law requires that it have the "U" in the Octagon mark.

I'm not aware of any law that requires the manufacturer to apply such a mark.

 

[kwhi43]

Cajan Powder

After you quite messing around with the revolvers, you can try a single shot
like my old Flintlock here. This is perfection at it's best! Cost 800.00

 

[azsixgun]

CajunPowder, thank you for your kind and detailed response! Indeed, I was looking at the old Uberti website. I didn't realize there was an old and new site and will have to take a look at the new site. I didn't see a normal blue finish, standard sight 1858 Remington on the new site?

The CC date code on yours makes it a 2008 production gun.
http://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPProofmarks.pdf


Thanks again for your helpful comments!

 

[CajunPowder]

Uberti 1858 - Topstrap and Bottom strap.

articap:

I agree, unless a gunsmith that is familiar with the make and model inspects it, I don't see how a dealer could catch any mechanical flaws.

I'm sure Dixie will exchange the revolver. I can't move on to a fourth vendor. The other gentlemen involved in this project with me have had their patience tested enough. This is the model we all want but we may have to move to a different model. It's primarily my passion for powder that started all of this and that's what's going to see it through. They didn't think they'd be running into these issues.

They just want to be able to post a 5-star review after they pull it out of the box like the ones they have seen at Cabela's and Dixie, etc...

I follow your strategy to bargain on price by balancing the expense of gunsmith work. This is an especially good strategy as I want to purchase at least 4 of these. 1 for the range members and guests, 1 for ME, and 2 for others who are interested.

The first one has got to be a peach or nobody is going to bite. They just want to know how much money they need to be prepared to spend.

I'm thinking that the membership here has offered the most satisfactory of all explanations as to quality. It's not about Pietta versus Uberti versus Lyman versus Euroarms ... it's about each piece and perhaps - the lots of pieces- .

If I can't work things out with Dixie, I may indeed return to Cabela's and try to fish out some good Pietta's but that drives the price up as one has to absorb additional shipping.

One thing for sure, it's important that all of these stainless steel target models I acquire be either Uberti or Pietta. I don't want a mix of these as I want to develop my knowledge on one set of variables ... at first.

Thanks for making me think, .

mykeal:

I'm mistaken. There's no "law" here, and I confused the fact that any black powder gun made in Italy since 1950 must have both the "provisional Gardone proof" as well as the "black powder proof" for Gardone and Brescia. I am just concerned and dissappointed that there is no Uberti proof on the revolver, (no "U" inside an Octagon).

It may indeed be an Uberti barrel, but there could always be an argument as to whether the other parts, (including internals), are Uberti. Thanks for keeping me straight.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com:

That's an excellent Martian phase pistol. I understand they can vaporize small mountains Did you get it at at an Isher Weapons Shop?

azsixgun:

Why am I beginning to think I have cracked open a can of worms? You row, I'll bail!

========================

I'm feeling better about my level of expectations.

I hope I don't have to finish out a topstrap in as poor a condition as this one when I get my first exchange! But I do understand now that I need to be prepared to do some finishing and polishing with a dremel and other tools and will be making that investment. I'm NOT paying Jay Strite to sand and polish, he's too valuable for doing the really good stuff like crowning the muzzle and a trigger job and timing job, etc...

FIGURE 08a: Topstrap

FIGURE 08b: Topstrap, (different lighting)

FIGURE 09: Topstrap side view, (thinning and uneven thicknesses due to grinding and poor finish of metal)

The bottom strap needs works also:

FIGURE 10: Bottom strap

 

[CajunPowder]

Hybrid blade/peep sight design

The primary reason my interests lie in the model I'm documenting here is that it has a front blade sight and an adjustable rear sight. Also, there is no V-Groove machined in the topstrap which may make the topstrap a better candidate for a scope as well as making the topstrap stronger. The last facts I figured out here, thanks to the membership for your responses and your knowledge. You make me think and that's good.

The front sight of this revolver is a bit problematic, there is a lot of daylight under the ramp and that's part of the design I realize at this point in my development. I'm wondering if once the revolver is sighted in to some degree should the front sight ramp be sealed. Should something be put underneath the ramp in order to seal that as it is going to be difficult to clean and it could snag on something, etc...

Any ideas as to how to seal the space in between the bottom of the front sight ramp and the top of the barrel?

FIGURE 11: Front Sight daylight, (Arc Welder mask advised!)

FIGURE 12: $2

FIGURE 13: $4

FIGURE 14: $6

As I reviewed this post before saving I noticed the lands inside the barrel look as though they are "hatched" ... they have what looks like horizontal marks across them. Are the lands supposed to be machined this way?

And after some research I'm going to guess that the rifling is "Broach Rifling", at least I hope that's what it is.

And looking into the barrel with even more scrutiny I see this revolver came with a pre-rusted muzzle. Yes, there is a small pocket of rust a little bigger than the tip of an eraser about an inch inside the muzzle. The barrel inside is really dirty, it's got all this black stuff in it ... I wonder what that could be?

Coming next, pictures of the insides of the cylinder chambers.

I believe there is a good possibility that this gun has been fired and more than once.

What am I still doing with this revolver? Why haven't I sent it back for an exchange? Because I'm learning, learning what the market REALLY has to offer ... for FOUR HUNDRED BUCKS.

 

[mykeal]

It may indeed be an Uberti barrel, but there could always be an argument as to whether the other parts, (including internals), are Uberti.

This is true about any Italian replica, or for that matter, any gun at all. Not every part of every gun is marked as to the manufacturer. You will typically find only one instance of the manufacturer's mark (it's not a proof mark) on a gun.

 

[azsixgun]

Wow! I'm pretty disappointed to see those pictures! I'm not really surprised by the uneven topstrap because I do expect these reprocuctions to be slightly closer to kits than say, a Smith and Wesson. I am, however, surprised by the rough finish found on the inside of the top and bottom strap. The chips of metal left in the hole for the rear sight speak to the lack of care that went into making this "top of the line" model. The saving grace is that with a stainless finish, it's easy for a prospective purchaser to finish the finishing job - that would not be the case with a blued model (short of a re-blue).

The fit of the front sight is a travesty that would annoy me to no end! Personally, I wouldn't worry about corrosion of barrel or sight due to the gap, but would clean it with a tooth brush and oil it after each use. I see two options for the gap: 1. re-cut the dovetail so the sight sits lower, or 2. maybe fill the gap with JB Weld. It's not the optimal repair, but it's grey, so it would probably blend with the stainless steel.

As one who is on the verge of making a purchase, I think I will personally rule out a blind purchase of a model with adjustable sights. I'd reconsider if I could personally inspect, but that gap would be a deal breaker for me.

One thing I noticed when I inspected two blued 1858 Remintons mfg'd by Uberti at a local dealer. One was new, old stock (didn't check the date code, but was told they'd had it for some time) and the other was recently placed in inventory. I'm not quite sure how to describe this, but the radius of the arc of the frame immediately ahead of the cylinder was deeper on the new revolver, therefore about four threads of the barrel were exposed. On the older revolver, the radius was shallower so only about two threads of the rear of the barrel showed. I haven't noticed if this is something that often varies on this model, but spotted it because I was comparing the two side by side.

I will say that looking at these pictures does have a chilling effect on my enthusiasm to purchase. My interest was in paying the premium Uberti commands to get away from annoying manufacturing imperfections that are commonly found with the lower priced manufacturers. Perhaps Uberti has increased their quality since 2008 so that a buyer would profit by purchasing a newly manufactured model?

 

[mykeal]

I've not heard of any claims that Uberti has improved quality lately. Peitta has, however, and now competes fairly well with Uberti.

Here's a little homily regarding purchasing a gun:
NEVER, EVER buy a gun sight unseen or without an iron-clad no-questions-asked return guarantee with an inspection period of no less than 3 days from receipt. Never. Period. End of discussion.

That applies to any gun, modern, antique, replica, pistol, revolver, riffle shotgun, cannon, whatever.

And it especially applies to guns that cost less than $400 no matter who made them or when they made them.

 

[Hawg]

I've not heard of any claims that Uberti has improved quality lately. Peitta has, however, and now competes fairly well with Uberti.

I have no personal knowledge but have heard quite a few claims on the SASS forum that Uberti's quality has gone down in the last couple of years.

 

[azsixgun]

Mykeal, with my few gunbroker experiences, I've learned that the advice you're offering is 100% spot on!

So, when was Uberti quality at it's best?

The main stocking Uberti dealer in Phoenix has only two 1858 Remingtons. After looking them over, I wanted to see a few more rather than buy what was on the counter.

 

[mykeal]

Based on anecdotal evidence, Uberti's best work was in the 90's and early 00's. I've heard rumbles of dissatisfaction about recent work, but some of that is $900 expectations meeting $300 guns. Uberti is perfectly capable of making a lemon, and they do so on occasion. Whether that's truly more often now than in the 90's, or our tolerances are just higher, I'm not sure. When I started this addiction in the 60's, you just took what you got and fixed it the way you wanted it. That was true through the 80's, but we started getting pickier in the late 90's, I think, as more and more regular shooters got the bug and expected the same quality they'd paid more for in cartridge guns.

Or maybe they really got worse.

I currently own 7 Uberti revolvers, made in: 1972, 1981, 1997, 1998, 2005, 2006 and 2007. The worst one is the '05 and the best ones are the '98 and '07. I would not generalize about the population of Uberti revolvers based on my small sample.

 

[ClemBert]

Those pics sure are an eye opener. What a waste of stainless steel. How disappointing to see someone put out a product like that.

Not that my experience is a good sampling as I don't have much of a collection of BP firearms as of yet but this is my rating thus far. I have two ROAs, two Uberti, one Pietta, and have inspected several other Pietta products owned by friends. By far the ROA is the highest quality, following by Uberti, with Pietta in dead last. In all fairness my stainless steel ROAs cost about $100 more than what you paid for your Uberti but from the pics you posted the extra $100 is well worth it. For what it is worth the Uberti and Pietta firearms are all recent productions.

Good luck with your quest for quality. I'm sorry that you're having such a bad experience so far. Hopefully a gem will turn up soon for ya.

So far my Uberti 1858 has been a gem for me.

 

[arcticap]

Not that my experience is a good sampling as I don't have much of a collection of BP firearms as of yet but this is my rating thus far. I have two ROAs, two Uberti, one Pietta, and have inspected several other Pietta products owned by friends. By far the ROA is the highest quality, following by Uberti, with Pietta in dead last.

In all fairness to anyone reading ClemBert, you're gem of an Uberti in the picture was preceeded by a defective Uberti that was returned in exchange for it.
Please tell us how well you would rate that defective Uberti compared to the Pietta that's rated to be "dead last" in your collection?
"Remember the best and forget the rest!"

Misaligned barrel, poor workmanship?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=349449

 

[ClemBert]

Please tell us how well you would rate that defective Uberti compared to your Pietta that you rated to be "dead last" in your collection?
Keep the best and forget the rest!

Thanks for pointing that out...in the spirit of full disclosure, as arcticap pointed out and as you can read from the link he included, I sent the original Uberti back. However, as you can see from the second sentence posted in that thread:

I just received a new Uberti made 1858 Remington. Initial inspection shows a pretty well made firearm for the most part...but...and you knew a "but" was coming...it would seem that the barrel alignment is less than perfect.

A lot of folks I spoke to thought it wasn't a big deal and in fact I learn that it wasn't uncommon for a 1858 to not be 100% true in barrel alignment. However, I'm a pretty picky person with high expectations thus I asked the question regarding if it was acceptable or not. For me it was not but hey...I'm picky! It was a shame to return the original Uberti I received as it was actually quite a nicely finished (and fit) firearm with the exception of the barrel alignment. In the end I really lucked out with the deal I got with the replacement.

As far as why I rated my Pietta last the first step in understanding that would be to read about the Pietta wedge from hell. The replacement Pietta had the same problem as the original Pietta. I should mention I love that little 1851 Navy however the fit and finish isn't even close, in my experience, with my Uberti revolvers. The grinding in places in inconsistent, the finish of the metal is rather rough as compared to Uberti, the timing is off, and the overall tolerance don't appear as tight. The other Pietta products owned by friends, that I've inspected, don't even match up with my Pietta. My dilemma with the replacement Pietta was to either return it and give up on Pietta or accept that fact that, as warned, these Italian replicas aren't perfect. My Pietta was better than what I saw from friends who own a few so picky or not I decided to keep it as the price was right.

Like I said though, my sampling is very very very tiny and it would be pointless to try to generalize based on my experience alone. Your mileage may vary.

 

[CajunPowder]

Last of the photo's - Exchange imminent

mykeal:

There go my expectations over-riding my common sense again. Thanks for keeping us in reality. That's a good homily, I shall recite it every time I see a piece that I admire and might want to add to a future collection. I'm thinking some of the quality issues may be a result of who the factory floor manager is or was during those years ... who the chief lathesman was ... etc...

Hawg:

Thanks for sticking with us in the thread, that's good info to know from our neighbors online.

azsixgun:

The more caution we exercise the the better we will be treated when it comes to NIB ... now that they know, we know.

ClemBert:

Buffalo might have gotten wind of your posting and read the thread ... seems they bent over backwards to make certain you were extra happy. And yes, it's a beauty!

articap:

Always a pleasure to hear from you.

====================================


I said in my last post that I thought the revolver had been fired before.

FIGURE 15: Dirty Cylinder Chambers

FIGURE 16: Dirty Cylinder Chambers

And perhaps it has not been fired, I defer to my newbie level of knowledge. But I don't appreciate a new in the box revolver having dirty chambers, no matter what that is in there.

From the next image, (FIGURE 17), I'm going to guess that an amateur attempted to refine the trigger pull on this which leads me to believe the revolver is simply a return that has been sitting in the warehouse for perhaps over 2 years. Dixie has a big turnover so I'm a bit suspicious at this point. The right type of screwdriver and no real care was taken here. The end result is a scarred trigger guard. It is cosmetic only and it is a new revolver.

I don't think that the factory would have done this and I don't think a gunsmith would have done this, that leaves only a customer who bought the pistol and then returned it, thus the dirty chambers.

All I really wanted was a revolver that locked up tight ... that's really all I wanted.

Now I would like a 5-star review revolver like ClemBert got as an exchange ... and I don't want to pay anymore shipping.

FIGURE 17: scarred trigger, (guard), screw.

Another cosmetic problem, (it's not big, but it's not small), and whoever keeps this revolver will see this pit everytime they look downrange. Who knows, maybe they'll grow to love it, I don't.

FIGURE 18: Pit on rear of frame

FIGURE 19: Sloppy Grip Nut - (Gonna get worse as the grips are removed for cleaning, etc...)

FIGURE 20: Poor brass to stainless fitting on trigger guard.

A most minor cosmetic defect but just goes to show some careless finishing.

This concludes my photo documentary. I'll pick this thread up again when I recieve the exchange for this revolver.

Thanks to everybody who contributed to this quality documetary on these replica revolvers. We GOT to let them know that we expect better and that we know ... they know ... that we know.

The company that listens to what the customer has to say ... sells more products, and in this economy ...

Till the Exchange ...

 

[Doc Hoy]

With apologies to "Cajun".....

....And out of a sense of pure selfishness,

I am not sorry about the problems you are having Cajun....

Had you received a pistol that met your expectations on the first crack this thread would not have been started. This has been an excellent education!

I feel like going straight to Bass Proshop, pulling out their revolvers and pointing out the flaws.

Obviously, your trouble doesn't give me any pleasure Caje, but your lucid explanation of the various aspects of the pistols, the photos, the comments from the smart guys on the forum, all have combined to make this thread very rewarding to me.

 

[mykeal]

This thread has a very interesting part to it that hasn't been mentioned, and I for one would very much like to hear more about it: the photography is superb. What equipment, lighting, aperture openings and speeds, ASA settings, etc., etc., please?