Trying to Clear up the 45 ACP is equal to the .357 Magnum--myth or fact????

A

Aqeous

New member
I have no real answer to the question I am posing. All I have is personal observations that I would like to share with the Firingline, and in return get some intelligent feedback.

No caliber wars this time fella's :p only the 45ACP and .357 Magnum is on the table.


Here's the thing. No one disputes the 45 ACP. Its right there with as good as it gets in terms of service caliber. And the .357 Magnum, well . . . huge muzzle blast, painful peak decibel level, and substantial recoil are its obvious cons. Not really the first on the list when it comes to HD situations.


However when we put them side by side, many people have said that they break about even in terms of lethality and "stopping power" department. This statement is a bit confusing for me being that I have taken some time to research and comparison them myself.


I will be as simple and to the point as possible to prevent rambling. And in doing so I may be a little blunt and a measure gruesome in my descriptions. I have never heard of a 45 ACP JHP causing bits of lung to be removed from a BD upon impact. I have heard it from the .357 Magnum. Also here on the firingline I remember an account (forgot from who) but the story that I was told was of a .357 magnum impacting a BG's shoulder, hitting bone, and severing an arm.

Obviously these stories are not the norm, but I have ran into them on more then one occasion. Even when hunting small critters like ground hogs the .357 Magnum knocks'em dead pretty fast in comparison to the 45 ACP.


So, my question is this: by what basis do people base there assertions when they say the 45 ACP is = the .357 Magnum? Granted (like I said) the .357 magnum can be deafening, considerable recoil (to some), less rounds out of a revolver (6 to 8 rounds as oppose to 10 + from the 45 ACP). But round for round, so far I'm not sure if I am buying it . . . :confused: To say the 45 ACP JHP are = to the .357 magnum JHP doesn't seem to fit with the accounts I have come across.



What does the firingline think . . . ?
 
Also here on the firingline I remember an account (forgot from who) but the story that I was told was of a .357 magnum impacting a BG's shoulder, hitting bone, and severing an arm.
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I'd have to see pictures (preferably video) and signed statements from more than one witness before I'd believe that.
 
I'll bite

In before someone claims the .357 Magnum gets 96% one-shot stops :rolleyes:

I use a .45 ACP for indoor HD [when the shotgun and AR aren't available] because the blast is substantially less than the .357, it holds more ammunition, and has proven effectivenss in several wars, a conflict, a "police action", and covert ops using ball ammo. Naturally my .45s are loaded with JHP ammuniton.

Are they equal? No. One's a revolver, and one's a semiauto
apples n oranges...

Are they equal terminally-speaking? No
IMO the .45 ACP has surpassed the .357 in terminal effectiveness due to research and development of new and improved JHP bullet designs like Ranger T, HST, and DPX.
.357 Magnum ammo R&D has pretty much remained stagnant, with the exception of dedicated hunting loads like Core-Lokt and Vital-Shok
 
Response to JohnKSa

Maybe . . .


But when bullet V.S. bone you never know.


Link: http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_StoppingPower.htm

"I observed the effect of the .357 Magnum 125 grain JHP once over the top of my own sights. The effect was gruesome. A solid hit that produced a severe blood flow AND dramatic effect from the rear, including lung tissue thrown perhaps three feet."
 
Response to Rampant_Colt

Interesting.


Your saying that do to modern advancements the .45 ACP is superior to the .357? Thats the first time I have heard that. Anyone else agree . . .?
 
I have no problem believing the comment about lung tissue being ejected. I also have no problem with the idea that a .357Mag bullet could break an arm bone. I do not believe reports of it "severing an arm".
 
not going to claim I'm even close to being "formally qualified" to debate this...

but...

1st off, my truck gun is a stainless 4" GP-100 of which I have probably shot more farm varments with, than likely any other gun... 2nd, it's my choice as a "woods strap on gun" for all situtions ( unless I expect to be running into bears,where I'll opt for a bigger bore please )... I have shot alot of midsized farm pests ( mostly Opposums, Wood Chucks & the like ) over the years, with a wide variety of ammo ranging from 110 grain hollow points to 200 grain plated... so my expirience here is "deicent"... I have not been impressed with too many center of mass stops using the 357 ( or 38 special for that matter ) on these types of animals... with 158 grain getting me almost no one shot stops ( I have no doubt that these animals crawled off into a wood pile & died, but they did not stop immeaditely )... I have had much better luck with lighter & faster bullets, with the 110 & 125 grain pills working much better at immeadiate stops when shot center of mass...

however... my main carry gun ( currently ) is a 44 special... I'm a big believer in larger meplat bullets on gun / cartridge combos that are subsonic, ( or at least close )...

I think if you are going to compare these 2 rounds as far as effectiveness, you'll need to pair the hyper velocity 357's against the 45... & I'd say they are very close to the same as far as terminal effectiveness... obviously your target, & the conditions surounding the "shoot" will greatly effect which has the edge... personally for most self defense situtions, that I'm likely to encounter ( this is very subjective ), I'd rather have the subsonic huge meplat bullet, than the hypersonic light weight...
 
The "stopping power" myths surrounding the .357 Magnum were started and perpetuated by Evan Marshall, Edwin Sanow, and Masaad Ayoob in gun magazines, and in those three Handgun Stopping Power BS books that they're trying sell....similar to where you're getting your information from, aqeous.

remember, Gunblast is an online MAGAZINE.

I can link you to reputable expert sites like firearmstactical.com that carry no bias or profit from their professional, expert advice.

I'm not an expert, nor do i claim to be.
 
The way that I have always viewed it is that both the 45 and 357 represent optimized rounds for 2 aproaches to stopping power.

The 45 -- slower, heavy round

the 357 --- light and fast, "energy dump" theory.

Keep in mind that reputation the 357 has for one stop shots or whatever was using 110-125 gr loads.

Both of these rounds were or are very popular and were very optimized for self defense and have proven quite effective.

The object lesson I take from all of this is that both methods work and can work well, but make a choice and go one way or the other and go all the way. I have been less impressed with what happens with lighter 45 slugs or 147 gr 9mm's

I would also tend to discount the stories of any handgun short of the 454 casull or bigger, blowing parts off, etc. and so forth. I'm sure there are similar stores that relate to the 45 ACP if you look and they are equally untrue or exagerated.

As to what to carry that is a personal choice, I believe the point is that no one is going to argue the 357 or 45 are not reasonable rounds to carry, which is better is a fight that is pointless.





'
 
Hello Mr. Terry.:D Nice to see you here.

I think the answer to the question requires a more narrowly tailored question. What loads are you talking about?

If you look at Mike McNett's gello results, well, you can draw your own conclusions:

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"
vs. buffalobore.coms 357:
180 gr. LFN-GC (1400 fps ME 783 ft. lbs.)
125 gr. JHC (1700 fps ME 802 ft lbs.)
158 gr. JHC (1475 fps ME 763 ft. lbs.)
DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"
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Now, add in 45 Super, and you get a 185 grain 45 bullet going near the same velocity as the 158 grain .357, or better, time your gun for .460 Rowland, and it starts looking more like a 44 magnum then a 357:
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#45s
185 gr. JHP @1300 fps (694 ft. lbs.)
200 gr. JHP @ 1200 fps (639 ft. lbs.)
230 gr. JHP @1100 fps (618 ft. lbs.)
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Rowland data from http://www.realguns.com/loads/460Rowland.htm

Remington GS 185 grain .451" 1.245" 18.0 Pwr Pistol 13.4 Fed 150 1505 fps 931 ft lbs
Hornady HP/XTP 230grain .451" 1.245" 17.8 Pwr Pistol 12.5 Fed 150 1332fps 906 ft lbs energy
or
Speer JHP 260 grain .451" 1.250" 12.2 True Blue 9.2 Fed 150 1148 fps 761 ft lbs
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You also have folks loading 45 ACP Plus P to real close to 357 velocity, with light bullets: Corbon:

SD45165/20 45 AUTO +P 165 GR. JHP 1250 FPs 573 FTLBS

They do Rowland too:
SD460RL185/20

460 ROWLAND* 185 GR. JHP 1425 FPS 834 FTLBS

As you can see, there are a LOT of things you can make the 45 ACP basic platform do. It's easier to do with the 357, however, since it's a revolver round.

Matching your ammunition choice to your target is key. A big, slow moving bullet is not going to create the kind of explosive pressure that a high velocity, small bullet does, in a small animal.

Also, bullet construction comes into play. Lee Jurras took everything on the planet using 185 grain, high velocity loads in a 44 magnum. He adjusted the jacket thickness to the game he was shooting, getting penetration when he needed it, and, explosive expansion when that was called for.

So my friend, you've posted a classic informal fallacy of false dilemma.
 
While I very much doubt the ability of a 357 magnum blowing off an arm, I did see a very slender woman when I worked in an emergency room who's hand was nearly severed at the wrist by what was reported to be a 357Magum at very close range. Her hand was mostly held on by a strand of skin (sorry so graphic). Now that I think about it, that was a unverifiable report. If I had to guess, it looked more like what a 410 or 20ga shotgun could do.
 
Response to Rampat_colt

"similar to where you're getting your information from, aqeous."


O.K. now no personal insults . . . ;)


That is not where I am getting my info from . . .
 
For self-defense, the terminal effectiveness is not much different. No pistol is going to be meaningfully more effective than either the .45 or .357. For hunting, and some other applications, the .357 (the real .357: 158gs @ 1500 fps) is superior. A watered-down .357, less so.
 
Wow! a lot of stuff on this one.

The only actual 'blow the guys arm off' I've found was an AD, at point blank range, with a 375 H&H rifle. SA hunting, in the bush, broke the shoulder bones, and, the arm came off, leaving an open artery, causing death by bleeding. Considering a 375 H&H will break elephant's shoulder bones, I don't much doubt this report.

This is my favorite quote, from the guy that started the little bullet, high velocity craze, Lee Jurras, who also has more trigger time on a 44 then most countries:

The 14" of geletin is fine for lab analylsis and a theoretical situation, someone has to explain to the widow why that theory didn't hold water after the fact: now maybe thats a little rash, but it has happened...You say you feel ALL handguns are not consistent stoppers on man sized targets"...I SAY if the caliber starts with a 4, and weighs at least 250 grs, moving at least 950 fps. IT WILL be consistent if properly placed...Thats the big secret. I also believe if it starts with a 3 and weighs 110 grs, traveling at least 1350 fps, it can be a consistent stopper also....provided its properly placed..
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I think this conclusion is pretty telling:

....My choice today for Grizz or Moose in Alaska, My 375 Howdah or my 475 Linebaugh...All lesser game my Ruger 44 Mag SuperBlackhawk.Jurras 180 gr. JSP.... Personal defense My 70 Series 1911.or 4" 25-5....All-around one gun...Probably 44 Superblackhawk....But who wants just one gun.....If I could only own one, I'd probably have to say my Linebaugh 475, could load in down for squirrel or up for bear....All around bullet design Keith style SWC....Hope I haven't confused the issue...For those of you that might mistake my trivia for just an old man...thats what worked and continues to work for me....Onward and upward...the Curmudgeon
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Lots of opinions real fast . . .

Seems as though I may have hit a nerve . . .


So, contrary to + 1 for the .357 magnum. Here on the firingline it appears that most believe +1 for the .45 ACP. Suggesting that, maybe, .45 ACP is not = to .357 magnum after all. the 45 ACP may one-up the .357 magnum given modern day advancements to the round.
 
Either will work if you do your part. Either will fail if you miss. Like all pistol rounds, they are a underpowered -- the purpose of your pistol is to let you fight your way to your rifle or shotgun. The difference between the two isn't worth a tinker's dam.

Take the time that you are spending thinking about this and use it for dry firing instead (your .357 or .45) -- you'll be much farther ahead in the long run.
 
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