Trump Shot on Campaign.

Every day more eye witness accounts, amateur videos, facts and commentary from ex ss people make this harder to except just simple Ignorance.
I would really like to be able to accept ignorance.
 
Freedom has its prices, and one of those prices is that we assume we are a society that can be relied upon to do the right thing most of the time--but obviously it's impossible to ensure that as an absolute all the time.
 
I would offer (social-"science" studies be @$#^ed), societies in early days of the nation
were much more cohesive -- at the community/family level to be sure.

There was both expectation & enforcement of standards of both conduct and self-suffiency,
all of which led to much more disciplined society (Wild wild West notwithstanding ;) )

Sadly, it is the accelerating breakdown in that social order which leads to today's perceived
mayhem-without-consequence. The very governing structures which are presumabley
formed to maintain that social order have taken in increasingly hands-off attitude,
paradoxically clamping down on the very people who aren't the problem
-- all in the name of "doing something."

Hence the increasing calls for "gun control," which will be only observed by those who can be controlled.

Burma Shave....
 
I can think of one thing the SS could have done better--after the first shot and Trump refused to take cover and instead seize the Rambo moment--I think they should have kicked him in the nuts to force him down and get covered and hustled out--unless of course he was upset he didn't get killed and wanted to prolong presenting himself as a target as long as he could. Stupid ^%$k. trump jeopardized them as well--nobody complaining about that.
 
....after the first shot and Trump refused to take cover and instead seize the Rambo moment
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Trump was immediately flat on the ground after the 1st AA agent reached him -- and stayed flat for a full minuite (60+ seconds ... count`em)

Then the SS stood him up straight/dazed confused -- still no movement on their part at all -- for another 30 seconds
at the end of which he/Trump woke up/realized that everyone was looking at him from the crowd for a sign that he was OK.

It was THAT moment only that he raised his fist w/ blood streaming across his face/looking straight at them to say "...FIGHT!"
THEN the SS -- after almost two minutes -- began to move, him leaning forward with his arm across a SS shoulder.

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/watch...rvice-after-shots-fired-at-rally-214810693743
Take a look.
 
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I didn't time it--but it's a fact they tried to get him down after the initial shot their primary mission was to get him to cover and out of an active shooting situation.He refused to cover and move so he could have his little reality show moment. He exposed himself and others to further risk as a result.
 
Yes, he dove to the deck initially. Not denying that--yes he got up and the yes the SS got him to get his shoes on and do a quick survey to ensure he was not in trauma/shock. You want to deny that Trump then made a deliberate effort to remain stationary and exposed to have his reality show moment--that's OK, you are entitled to your opinion.
 
What stands out IMHO in this instance, Crooks did or seem to do everything he could to get caught. From checking out the place days beforehand, flying a drone over the place, being seen on the roof, ETC
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They say hindsight is 20/20, meaning clear vision, and this is true, in a way. Looking BACK with the benefit of knowing what happened, what was important, because of that, being able to see what was missed before, clearly and obviously makes it seem that important things were missed.

Its obvious TODAY, but a week+ ago, before the event happed, how "obvious" was it, really.

Farm show (fairgrounds??) "The shooter checked out the grounds days beforehand..." technically true, but means WHAT? EVERYONE who visited the fairgrounds in the days before the rally was "checking out the location" and that's what, hundreds, or thousands of people???

Think security is going to be able to spot, and single out a lone person, someone 20 years old, with no criminal record, someone who is (at the time) a completely law abiding citizen, and unknown to the authorities?

I think you're expecting too much.

"He flew a drone over the site before the attack.." ok, they found a drone in his car. And going by the news I just looked up, a "friend" of the shooter told the police Crooks had flown it over the site. Police spokesman said they didn't know when he did it, could have been hours or days before the shooting.

Seems a bit confusing to me that the "lone gunman" who "didn't have any friends and was bullied in school" etc, NOW has "friends who are talking to the cops, telling them what the shooter did before the attack....

Another point, say you're there, and spot someone climbing up to a roof. How do you know he's not supposed to be there, or do that? Maybe he's an IT guy going to check a cable connection. Maybe he's a photographer who wants a better angle. Maybe, (If you see the rifle) he's part of the security counter sniper teams, or maybe he's an assassin. You don't know.

You've got..maybe 30 seconds to decide, and maybe a minute to find a security person (cop, etc, who may be a few hundred feet from where you are in the crowd), tell them what you saw, get them take you seriously, and get an alert out. NOT much time, at all.

Nearly all of the outcry about "why didn't they stop him" is thoughtless emotional response by people who don't understand the complexities involved, and who are looking at ALL the details AFTER THE FACT, so that they NOW know which ones are important.
 
There was plenty of time (20 minutes or so) to check out reports of an individual climbing up on a roof before the first shot was fired.
During which time, Trump should NEVER have been allowed to walk up on to the stage.
What harm would it have done to delay his entry?
And, Who thought leaving a roof top 130 yds from the stage unmonitored was a good idea?
 
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He refused to cover and move.....
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That's absolutely wrong. He went down on his own inside of 2 sec, and stayed down, until the SS stood him up.

He then never resisted movement at all, at any time.
And he then moved ASAP w/ the SS when they started to move.

What possible video are you looking at ?
 
I can think of one thing the SS could have done better--after the first shot and Trump refused to take cover and instead seize the Rambo moment--I think they should have kicked him in the nuts to force him down and get covered and hustled out--unless of course he was upset he didn't get killed and wanted to prolong presenting himself as a target as long as he could. Stupid ^%$k. trump jeopardized them as well--nobody complaining about that.
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That's absolutely not how it happened. You need to watch the video again.

Trump got down on his own. The SS did not have to force him down. After he was down on his own the SS then dogpiled him and kept him down until well after you could hear on some of the videos the SS saying "Shooter down." Then (after a delay which I don't fully understand) the SS got him up on his feet. That's when he did his fist pump thing. The SS definitely did not want him back down at that point, they wanted him up.
You want to deny that Trump then made a deliberate effort to remain stationary and exposed to have his reality show moment--that's OK, you are entitled to your opinion.
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He did stay in place and do his gesture and said "Fight." However that was only after the SS had stated that the shooter was down and then gotten him up to his feet.
do a quick survey to ensure he was not in trauma/shock.
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It seems likely that the survey was done while he was down because nobody seemed to be checking him after he is on his feet.

The SS got him up and then, after he did his thing and got his shoes, they moved him. At that point, they didn't want him back down--they were the ones who got him to his feet. They probably did want him moving faster than he did though--although it's hard to tell because they seemed quite disorganized.
...the SS stood him up.
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Correct. He was not allowed to get up until some time after the SS stated the shooter was down. That can be heard on some of the videos.

At that point, the SS stood him up and (slowly & clumsily) got him off the stage.

The SS could have handled that whole mess better. They kept him down longer than was probably necessary. You can hear them saying: "Shooter is down." but they keep holding him down. Then one of them says something like: "On me." implying (to me anyway) that they wanted to get Trump up--but they don't. Then after a little while longer they finally do get him up. At that point we go into getting the shoes and fist pump deal which, IMO, they should not have allowed unless it didn't hinder getting Trump to the vehicle. Then they have some difficulties exiting the stage, which was stupid since they should have been ready to do that properly.
 
Well put!

Nicely and accurately said JohnKSa. The timeline gets compressed in the what are effectively sound bite videos we see online and on the news.
Trump's photo with raised fist....whether or not a Trump supporter we shall all get real tired of that picture. I do admire a man that can think on his feet, even more so given he had just got back on his feet after hitting the deck.
A full minute is not much, it gave him enough time to plan the perfect optics. Very much a defining moment for Trump.
 
it gave him enough time to plan the perfect optics.
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Wrong again.

When the SS finally stood him up you were looking at a 78-year old man initially dazed & confused from being piled on/held down by near 1,000 lbs of human bodies.

When stood up, it took him 3-5 seconds come to/regain his perspective -- and his 4 raised fist pumps realizing he was alive & well lasted all of three seconds, then he was moving supported by the SS down the stairs.

If you've ever been shot at -- heard that fatal zipper (as some of us have) to realize that someone just tried to kill you and are still alive.... an entirely understandable response.

Calibration: I'm not -- never have been -- particularly fond of his style.
But I give credit where credit due to any man.
 
Totally the opposite of how I interpreted the video!!

Shot rang out, Trump felt something and immediately ducked, I'm willing to bet that was per pre-planned instruction. The SS first instinct is to give him complete body coverage by surrounding him and forming a dome over him. They don't know if other shooters or other shots might still be incoming. It is obvious their primary goal is to evacuate him as quickly as possible, you can see armed police and another SS personel quickly clearing a lane and urging the immediate evac. The "ON me" call is what I take to be a team leader instructing the team to a coordinated lift that keeps the human shield intact providing necessary coverage through the stand and march out. Trump stops the process not once, but twice, to do his Rambo fist salute and urge the crowd to fight, both times stopping the evac train and exposing himself. Just because a shooter is down does not mean they assume the threat is over.
 
Totally the opposite of how I interpreted the video!!
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First of all, just watch it again. It will be way easier that way.

They did not immediately try to evacuate him, they kept him down until they got the word that the shooter was down.

  • Trump went down himself.
  • SS dogpiled him and kept him down.
  • At some point you can hear them say: "Shooter is down." and at that point it sounds like they start trying to get him up. One of them says: "On me." but nothing happens. A bit later, they do stand him up.
  • At this point, it's hard to tell exactly what's going on because they are just standing there. You can hear Trump say something about his shoes, and then he does his fist pump thing. They should have been moving him at this point, not just standing there. This looks very much like "B team" type performance. Once it was clear to get him up, he should have been in the car really fast, IMO.
  • They finally get him moving towards the car, but run into some trouble getting off the stage. It's like they had never thought about how to go down the narrow stairs while keeping protection all around him. During the pause, Trump does his fist pump thing again.
  • They manage to get him off the stage using the stairs, but slowly. The SS seems disorganized. Again, it looks like "B team" stuff.

At no point while Trump was doing his fist pump/waving thing was the SS trying to get him down, they had already gotten him up and were trying to get him to his car by then. IMO, they should have accomplished the movement a lot faster, and if that meant Trump not getting to do his fist pump, well, too bad. Their first job was to keep him alive.

At no point was Trump forced down.

Trump did not refuse to take cover. He went down on his own before the SS even got to him.

There were periods where the whole group was standing around when they should have been moving. It's not exactly clear what that was about, but here are things that appeared to contribute:

1. Trump wanting his shoes may have kept them in place when they first stood up. This was stupid, but I'm inclined to give him a little leeway, just having been shot. It was stupid of the SS to pay attention this request (assuming they did).
2. The team appeared disorganized.
3. It appeared that the team couldn't figure out how to get down the stairs while still maintaining a body shield around Trump.
4. It's certainly possible that Trump delayed things with his gesturing, but it's not really necessary to stand still to do a fist pump, and the video shows him doing it while moving at some points so it seems like there were other contributing factors.
 
This looks very much like "B team" type performance. Once it was clear to get him up, he should have been in the car really fast, IMO.
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It could very well have been the "B" team in action. After all, Trump is not the President. He was the President so, he knows the drill, but right now, he's just a candidate, and despite all the rhetoric, I don't think there was any "credible threat" the SS was aware of, so there's no pressing reason to have the "A Team" covering him at that place and time.

Events have proven this wrong, but that's history, now.

Next point, "Shooter is down"...
At that point, with your own (and presumably trusted) guys telling you "we got him", the majority and immediacy of the pressure subsides. Not gone, 100% by any means, but not like it was while the shooter was active.

And, Trump's not a young man, he's 78, and while he seems pretty fit, he has just been shot, taken a dive onto a hard floor, and had several hundred pounds of SS dogpile on him to protect him. With the bulk of the danger perceived as past, getting a hurt, somewhat confused old man off the stage as fast as humanly possible seems a bit risky to me. Rapidly, expeditiously, sure, and that's what it looks like they did, to me.

OF course security is allowed (and expected) to manhandle their charge for safety during the emergency, but as the emergency diminishes, the amount their protectee needs (or will tolerate) diminishes, as well.

Wouldn't look good for the SS if Trump only got nicked in the ear and they broke 3 of his ribs getting him to "safety" AFTER the announcement that the "shooter is down", now would it??
 
I think there's a lot of middle ground between how long it took them from the time they stood him up until they got him to the car and breaking three ribs rushing things.

I was not impressed with how hard it seemed to be for them to go down the steps from the stage. Almost like they had never practiced anything like that before.
 
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