Trapdoor Springfield

"Theories vary, but I suspect the Gatlings COULD, if used as part of a better strategic plan (or pretty much ANY strategic plan), have made quite a difference."

So could have a wing of A-10s dropping a bunch of sticks of Rockeye CBUs...

But they weren't there, either. :p


IIRC Custer decided to leave the Gatlings behind because much of the ground his patrol was going to cover was broken with ravines and such, and maneuvering the guns would have been very problematic.
 
Trapdoors as shooters...

At Friendship, I recall buckets full of stuck case removers issued for trapdoor. Likewise, the combination tools were in abundance. All this was twenty plus years ago. Bought one of each to go with my rod bayonet TD. There is a mindset that if a single shot action can be made into a 22-250 is great. Otherwise, it's junk. Point being handling a TD as a black powder low pressure gun will do you well. One factor that makes for a bad reputation is that bore diameters are often larger the our 458. My last TD had a groove diameter of .462. Getting bullets of the right diameter proves these rifles, in good condition, to be shooters. Also, using the issue sights TD's will shoot high at our normal 100 yards. Make sure you do not get a TD that has been through the Bubba custom shop. Pedersoli, based on my experience, makes good firearms.

Addendum: I have learned not to fiddle with rust frozen firing pins in breech blocks. A method of removing these stuck firing pins would be greatly appreciated.
 
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Try this...

Soak the entire block in a good penetrating oil. Even better is if you can put the breech block in penetrating oil in an ultrasound tank.

That will help break up the rust.

Then, taking an appropriately sized brass rod, try gently tapping the firing put out through the breechface.

If that doesn't work, wrap the entire thing in something impermeable (like aluminum foil) and throw it into your deep freeze for a couple of days, and then try tapping the firing pin out again.


And yes, stuck case removers were issued liberally with Trapdoors.

Why?

Because self-contained metallic cases were still new technology, black powder still caused a lot of chamber fouling, and between the two there were a lot of opportunities for cases to get stuck.

I seem to recall that Winchester either sold, or included, a stuck case extractor with its Model 1876 rifles for those very reasons.
 
I once read that the basic load of ammunition for cavalry of the period was 20 carbine, 18 revolver; and that troopers were opposed to having to carry more.
Zat so?

I have also read that the reason the Spencers were replaced by Trapdoors was that Spencer folded in 1869 and the guns were worn out by the mid 1870s with no source of parts.
 
Trapdoor firing pins

Rusting firing pins were such a problem that you find 1880's vintage TD's with issue bronze firing pins. We have soaked breech blocks so rusted in kerosene for a year. Those pins stayed stuck. The hole in the breech face is too small to put anything substantial enough to move that pin. I'm sure there is a way to do it. These things are so stuck that normal means just do not work. I'm open to suggestions. The last breech block we tackled unsuccessfully was in excellent condition on the outside. More recently we trashed a breech block with rusted in firing pin. We found a donor rifle from the Bubba Custom Gun works with salvageable lock and breech block. We are talking about a century plus of black powder crud. This damage may have had to do with government cartridges.
 
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Try the freezer method.

And try the brass drift through the firing pin hole in the breechblock.

Yes, it's small, but I used that very method to free a stuck firing pin on an SKS. For that, though, I used a piece of drill rod with a relief hole drilled in it then lathe spun down to the correct size.

It worked.



Matter of fact, if you had one of the bronze firing pins for the Trapdoor, you could use that as the punch. Probably trash it, though.

When you get right down to it, though, the only real way to get a thoroughly rusted pin out may well be to drill it, thread it, and pull it with a slide hammer.
 
Rusted Firing Pins

Mike, thanks for the suggestions. As it happens this problem of stuck firing has to do with heavy rust related black power fouling.:eek::eek: It's not stuck, It's frozen in there. It would be helpful if you could find a TD breech block with rusted in firing pin for experiments. Share the outcome with us. What you are suggesting will not work. Been there done that.

Addendum: Another version was the Gatling guns were out of time and not usable.
 
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Rust is rust. Doesn't matter what it was caused by.

To be honest, I don't have any interesting in trying to free up a rusted TD firing pin because I don't have a TD, and don't ever expect to.

To be perfectly blunt, there really aren't many other options that what I've suggested. If they don't work, I really doubt that anything is going to work.
 
Last shot on the Trapdoors

Now we are on the same page. As I had originally posted be aware that the grove diameter may be surprisingly generous. In my case the .458 bullets would ride on top of the lands and keyhole at 50 yards. Right size bullet...shot very well. Having three lands and groves complicates slugging. The second part was to make sure the rifle was functional. A we agree it may be near impossible to clear a frozen firing pin. :eek:

As a side note: Many of the lock parts on trapdoors are interchangeable with those of the 1861-1863 Springfield's. Also, look for broken bridles from dry firing. Take care and be safe.
 
Trapdoors-minor addendum

Actually, Springfield Armory did use 1863 locks on Trapdoors until the Model 1873. Other parts from the rifle muskets were employed where possible. If I understand the situation correctly this economy was a serious consideration in adopting the TD design.

Also, the stuck case remover also was designed to scrape fouling. Many of us have attempted to undo blackpowder related rust on long neglected firearms. We know the true scope and meaning of ruined. Period.:eek:

I hope the OP finds a good Trapdoor. These rifles are well made and all that implies. The US Army did not issue junk. Getting into to these blackpowder breech loading rifles is highly addictive. Good luck and best wishes.
 
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I have a trapdoor Carbine and normally shoot a light bullet with 11 grains of Unique powder, very light load and using a taller blade in the front sight lug she shoots close to center. At 100 yds. Not a lot of power but makes the steel ring at that distance and little kick for the shooter.
 
I use to use Unique for cast bullets in rifles, but went to other powders instead as I found they take up more room in the case.

For example, Using 11 gr of unique in my 45-70 case it fills the case 33.8 percent. Using 4198 it fills up 61.7 percent.

With the lower fill, the powder isnt as consistant in laying in the case while firing therefore you accuracy suffers.

I like to find the power that comes closest to filling the case, and burns 100% just as the bullet exits the barrel.

5477 is another excellent powder for cast bullets or reduced loads. As is Trailboss.

I think one should try as many powders as possible to see which is the most accurate.
 
Col Townsend whelen is quoted saying that "only accurate rifles are interesting".

Bull.

Most of the rifles that I would have on a bucket list couldn't bench press over 50 pounds.

I should have bought a trapdoor when hr was selling them almost fifty years ago.
 
Whelen also said "the only reason the whitetail population still exists is the buckhorn rear sight"

Don't just look at select quotes, read some of what he wrote, he was a hugely opinionated son of a gun. To be fair, all the old "gun cranks" were, it was the style of the times, as much as the individuals, though some carried it to what are today, considered extremes.
 
I've read a lot about him, as well as Howe, his working partner.

It was applicable. Interesting guns are interesting, imo, unlimited accuracy guns are only mildly interesting. Pillar bedding, blueprint actions, it all rates somewhere near near the intricacies of creating a French horn. Seeing the .700 t rex was like seeing a vintage Ferrari.
 
all the old "gun cranks" were, it was the style of the times
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And we can learn a lot studying those old Gun Cranks.

Read up on Bass Reeves, his cross draw and learning to shoot with Right and Left and equally saved his life many time in his duties as a Dep. US Marshall in the Indian Territories of Oklahoma. Probably the most experienced non-fiction Western Lawmen.

Look at Cpt Edward Lewis on rifle shooting, Dr. Francis Mann search for the one hole group. Hatcher as an Ordinance officer was building the lead for spin drift into the sights of our service rifles before it was cool.

We talk about our modern day snipers, Hathcock, Kyle, etc, yet they dont compare to the likes of Jack Hinson from our civil war.

I had a cousin who's father in law worked with the old gunmen law officers of the 30s in Oklahoma. He made trip to Anchorage and wanted meet me. I just got to work and was about to hit the street when he showed up at the station. I delayed in getting to my area and when to have coffee with the old gentlemen. Four hours later my Lieutenant came looking for me. He set down for about 15 minutes, got up, told me to take all the time I needed as he would get more out of me from what I learned from this guy they he could by me working my patrol area.

He was right, I learned more that night from this old Gun Crank (about coaching and instructing) then I have from any instructor at any of the many classes I have attended. Only Gary Anderson (another Old Gun Crank) came close.

Every ex cop/service member is a gun expert now. Sorry, I'll stick with my Old Crank buddies.
 
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Buckhorn sight-or lack of practice ? I am not a hunter nor do I play one on the Internet, from what I have read over the years most hunters really do not shoot enough and hence aren't good shots.
The old time writers and experimenters pretty much worked in isolation, rarely met each other, at best corresponded.
And a lot of us today are pretty opinionated. Cf the caliber wars or "---
-- are junk!" threads.
The manual of arms for the Trapdoor is fairly simple, the Buffington sight allows for careful sight adjustments. I am not sure what the ammunition allotments were for practice back then, from what I have read they were none too generous.
 
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I am not sure what the ammunition allotments were for practice back then, from what I have read they were none too generous
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The Springfield Trapdoors carried over from the muzzle loader service rifles, in that they came with a mold and reloading equipment.

Like today, if the soldiers of that era didnt shoot, it was because they wouldn't put in the time to shoot on their own.
 
Like today, if the soldiers of that era didnt shoot, it was because they wouldn't put in the time to shoot on their own.
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Out of curiosity, what was a trooper's monthly pay, back in those days?
 
About $12 per month, which is in line with a privates pay today.

The means was there, its the lack of desire that was missing then and now.
 
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