threat is down... 911 is called...what to say/not say

I tend to agree with Blue Steel on one thing. If you shot the intruder, tell the 911 operator that you shot him. The police are going to come to your home. They will find your fired gun. They can give you a paraffin test to find powder residue on your hand. I mean, it's not like the gun came off of the night stand and shot the guy by itself. :p

After that I would say, "Here's the bad guy. Here's my gun (pointing to it). I will cooperate with the investigation fully as soon as I talk to my attorney. Please do not ask me any questions.

Guys and gals...I know two attorneys that do gun law, one specializes in it. They both advise all of their clients to remain silent. And as mentioned before, do not talk to a person sharing your cell.

The same would go for a shooting outside of the home.
 
The less you say to the police, the less that can be twisted and distorted against you later - either in criminal or civil court. The decision to actually charge you with a crime (as opposed to take you to jail) is NOT made by responding officers but by a district attorney or assistant district attorney, and talking to the responding officers will have little to no effect on that charging decision.

Call 911, then shut the hell up until you've had the opportunity to speak (in private, of course) with a competent attorney.
 
(Nnobby45) I don't lay my firearm anywhere until I see flashing lights coming down the street. Certainly not while I'm calling 911. You can assume Bubba was alone, but, as Clint Smith says, Wolves travel in packs.

Some legal authorities have changed their opinions about doing a perfect imitation of a guilty person by immediately lawyering up while Bubba lay on the sidewalk in a pool of blood, making a great immitation of a victim.

A BRIEF account of what happened before you zip it up can work to your benefit.

I highly recommend the tapes put out by the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, LLC.

Especially the one: "Handling the Immediate Aftermath of a Self-Defense Shooting" by Mas Ayoob and Marty Hayes.

When you join, as I did, you get all the tapes anyway. Ayoob, Hayes, Tueller, Farnum and others make this new org. worth taking a look at.

http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/
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Other than making sure you really are safe, this advice will not help you, and could ONLY hurt you long term.

Police work for the prosicution. Plain and simple.

You dont lie, but you don't want to be jacked up on ADRENALINE and talking to them either. This is why police LOVE to ask questions right after the event...people ussully yap, yap ,yap.

by all means call 911.:rolleyes:


Lawyers are not a sign of guilt... they are a sign of understanding the system.

 
Man, it sounds like some of your people are Phil Spector trying to figure out how to get away with shooting your girlfriend. If you are legally armed and have a legitimate reason to defend yourself with deadly force then you should not be so paranoid. That does not mean you should not prepare for the aftermath and protect yourself.
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+1

King Edward,
In the event that you were involved in a SD shooting that ended up being questionable and say went to trial, I would think that the jury / prosecution would be very interested in the fact that (you) the defendent started (multiple) internet forum threads on this subject. I'm not sure how they would fiqure out that you did, but I'm sure they could.

The instructer in my CWP class said always be carefull what you say, even to friends, because it very well could come back to haunt you. This came after I made a comment about home invader(s) that I probably shouldn't have.

I'm not in no means putting down your being curious as to the proper ways to act in a situation, but I see how someone could make the case that you were almost looking foward to being in a situation.

sclay
 
My shooting I said "Shot fired, one down send me an ambulance and supervisor" then waited for the backup to arrive. Had an excellent witness, BG's girlfriend who stated if I haden't shot him he would have stabbed me. but that was an on duty shooting and before I was questioned in detail my Association president and lawyer were with me at the station.
 
Lawyers are not a sign of guilt... they are a sign of understanding the system.
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Well, Izzy, wouldn't that include the lawyers who have actually represented citizens in shootings who now advocate a BRIEF description of what happened in order to establish yourself as the victim?

Nobody said you shouldn't call your lawyer or that you should ramble away.

Once again:

5 Things To Do After A Shooting:

-Point out the perpetrator to the police
-Tell the police you will "sign the complaint"
-Point out the evidence to the police
-Point out the witnesses to the police
-WILL GIVE STATEMENT IN 24 HOURS AFTER SPEAKING WITH AN ATTORNEY.

I guess #6 could be: then shut the hell up!:D
 
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by all means call 911.
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And when you call 911, what do you SAY?

***

"911. Please state your emergency."

"Yes, I want an attorney."

"Excuse me?"

"I have a right to an attorney. Please send one."

"Sir, where do you want me to send your attorney?"

"I don't have to answer any questions without a lawyer! Please send me my attorney."

"Sir?"

"I'm not answering any more questions. I want my attorney now."

"Sir, I do not understand the nature of your emergency."

"I want my attorney."

*click*

***

Somehow, I don't think that's going to work real well. I think if you call 911, you have to say something about the nature of your emergency. Since you have to say something about the nature of your emergency, it makes sense to me that you would frame that sentence in terms of, "I was attacked..." -- thus establishing yourself as the victim of a crime.

I think when the police arrive on scene, you could choose to say nothing to them. But you're standing there with a smoking gun over a dead body. That you shot the guy is obvious at a glance. What isn't obvious at a glance is that you were attacked. It isn't immediately obvious to a cop whether there are other suspects getting away, whether there were any witnesses (who may otherwise vanish into the woodwork if not specifically called from anonymity), whether there's evidence of the crime against you anywhere on or near the scene, and that you are willing to cooperate fully as soon as you've talked to your lawyer. Those things all require some sort of verbal communication. Some of them will wait, maybe. But some of them won't.

What you choose to say to the police as they arrive on scene, amped up and ready to arrest a criminal -- whether you take the advice of experts who have been defending innocent parties in self-defense cases for years, or the advice of lawyers who specialize in getting better deals for guilty clients, or the advice of anonymous internet strangers who aren't going to chip in to pay your bail, well, that part's up to you.

But I think you should probably plan to say something besides "I want a lawyer" when you call 911. If you just stick with that, you're going to confuse the poor dispatcher, and won't get any help at all. And I think you should have a plan for what to say to the officers on scene.

As for joining the Armed Citizens Network, I'm all for it. Good people, reliable advice, good value.

pax
 
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Incidentally ...

http://www.laaw.com/highstress.htm

The link above is to an article written for Law Enforcement supervisors, explaining what they should and should not tell their officers to do in the moments after a shooting. Very interesting stuff!

One of the things that struck my eye was this:

All you, as the supervisor, really need to know (from the involved officer) is:

1. Are there any other casualties, other than what are apparent?

2. Are there any other suspects in need of apprehension?

3. Is there any evidence that is likely to be lost or compromised by delay?

4. Are there any witnesses that we need to nail down right away?

... From the officer, insist upon only that information that is actually needed right away. Then, advise the officer that (s)he has the right to remain silent and the right to an attorney, and that (s)he is well advised to exercise his/her rights.

... Get the officer in contact with HIS/HER attorney as soon as possible.
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This reads very, very similar to Massad Ayoob's advice and to the advice given by the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. Ayoob tells students that if they are ever involved in a defensive shooting, they need to state the following:

1. That person attacked me. (Or those people attacked me). Point out the assailant, or point which way they went if they escaped.
2. “I will sign a complaint.” (I'm the victim.)
3. The evidence is there (point it out)
4. The witnesses are there (point them out)
5. I want a lawyer and will give a statement after I have my lawyer. Then shut up.

Hmmm. Laying one over the other, we get something like,

Casualties -- me, anyone else injured, we're the victims
Suspects -- there he is, there they are, they went that-a-way (flip-flop the first two items on the list)
Evidence -- there it is
Witnesses -- there they are
Shut up & get a lawyer

Kind of interesting that the advice cops give to each other for what to do after a shooting so closely parallels what we're hearing innocent armed citizens should do after a shooting. You'd almost think some people had studied this topic ...! :)

Go read the article. It's really good.

pax
 
I have always hear that if you have a cell phone and can take pictures of the assailant and weapon to do so. Also any car licenses and individuals present.

Yes or No??
 
I would be scared if I had to shoot a robber and the cops were coming. They get there and see a hyper person esp if you have your gun out, and might be making a split second decision about whether you are the offender or the homeowner. Without info from their dispatch, I reckon they'd treat you as the offender till they found otherwise.

"
Don't hang up on the 9-1-1 operator. They are only going to start trying to call you back. Hanging up stops the flow of information to the police, and keeps them from being able to give you instructions. Hanging up only increases the potential for you to accidentally be treated as a hostile by the police."
 
LadysGunControl.jpg
 
ALWAYS have your lawyer's cell # in your wallet.

When talking to the police:
(1) He came at me.
(2) I told him to stop. He kept coming.
(3) I stopped the attack.
(4) I want to cooperate fully with your investigation, but I want my lawyer present. Thank you.
 
thanks all for the replies.

the main points seem to be honesty, simplicity, knowing a little about the different sides and expectations, being co-operative and pointing out the truth.

this would be a very stressful moment in one's life and it will be important to be able to help police and to ask for medical assistance and to have in mind these "basics" so that whatever else is spinning around in the mind will not come out of the mouth.
 
KingEdward ~

The main point is don't talk too much. Say what you absolutely need to say, and no more.

The people who suggest you say nothing at all have a good point: many people do find it easier to keep their lips entirely closed than it is to say only what needs to be said. But you won't help your case if the witnesses walk away and the evidence that supports your story disappears before you tell it.

pax
 
advice from an LEO

Call 911 and tell the dispatcher someone has broken into your home and they are shot. Tell the dispatcher you have a weapon. When the police arrive before they approach you place the weapon in a visable area away from your person. Put your hands in the air palms towards them, be prepared to be atleast handcuffed don't resist and don't talk smart to them. Be polite and cooperative. Weather or not you are charged will depend on the circumstances. If the subject was running from you and you shot him in the back as he made it for the door. Be ready to go to jail.
 
Since you will no doubt be pretty upset, it's not a good time to give a statement to the LEO. Unfortunately, LEO are trained to try to get you to make a statement right away.

Best advice I've heard: Tell the first officer on scene that you are having chest pains and numbness in your arm and you would like to get checked out by the hospital. That should buy you several hours to clear your head and have your attorney next to you when you tell what happened.
 
Lots of great information in this thread. My UT CCW class was taught by an LEO. I also attended a 8 hour class on the legal aspects of CCW - this was taught by an attorney and was attended primarily by other attorneys, NRA trainers and LEOs of various flavors. I was the only citizen attendee.

A couple of key points I noted:

(1) If you have the opportunity, make defensive statements in a loud voice before the incident - "Stop, don't rob me", "I have a gun, I will defend myself", "Stay away", etc. This gives a warning to a potential attacker, and may provide supporting evidence if witnesses are within earshot. It demonstrates that you attempted a lower level of response before going to deadly force. Keep in mind however, people may hear but not see you. Still good to do, IMO.

(2) Call 911 ASAP, if you are with your significant other you should already have a plan where your SO immediately moves away, placing you between them and the attacker and dials 911. They should identify you and describe what you are wearing.

(3) If you did indeed have to defend yourself, tell the 911 operator only that "someone has been shot, please send help and an ambulance".

(4) If the threat is no longer present, place your firearm out of reach, open your wallet to your ID and hold it and your hands in the air. This is what an off duty officer would do - as responders arrive, you will look less threatening.

(5) Describe the situation with the least amount of detail possible. Again, "someone has been shot" is better than "I shot that guy". Respectfully offer that you will fully cooperate once you have had a chance to speak with your family and an attorney.

(6) If pressured (and maybe this is a good idea anyway), request medical attention. This will remove you from direct interface with the responding LEO's and give you a few minutes to get your bearings.

Also, if you have pepper spray - use it first. And if you carry pepper spray, expose yourself to it at least once so you know what to expect. You wouldn't want the spray coming back in your own face unexpectedly, rendering you more incapacitated than your attacker. There is a chemical, Sudacon I think, that will offset the affects of the pepper spray after you conduct this experiment. (I haven't done this yet).

Another recommendation is that you keep a folder with a record of any classes, training, practice, etc. related to Self Defense and firearm training. Even range time could be/should be logged. This would demonstrate to a court that you maintained a level of knowledge and proficiency in self defense.
 
Location Matters

The scenario, as i recall, was shooting a BG in your home. The cops and the DA are going to view this very differently from a shooting in a parking lot. Even without a true castle doctrine on the books, most states recognize that a BG who breaks and enters while you are home inherently presents all 3 necessary conditions - opportunity, intent, and ability.

Shooting a guy out front of Walmart involves a lot more variables - collateral damage, witnesses, instigator vs victim - things that leave much more open to interpretation by the DA. But Pax summed things up pretty clearly.

In either case, you have to call 911 as soon as it is safe to do so.
You have to tell the dispatcher enough to get LEO and EMT on site.
You have to tell the reponders - look at PAX's list - enough to seal off the crime scene, gather evidence, and identify witnesses.
Then you respectfully add that part about making a full statement after discussion with your attorney.

I would add that you should never, ever give first aid or medical assistance to the BG. Even if you are a medical professional. You compromise your personal safety, your situational awareness (what if the BG partner isn't really gone), and open yourself to additional liability ("he would have lived if that nasty rich homeowner hadn't touched him"). The Good Samaritan laws in my state only apply to doctors and nurses rendering emergency first aid.

On similar posts i have seen it recommended that your should wet your pants. Gross and disgusting, yes. Uncourtly and unpleasant, yes. But will it help in establishing or supporting your fear of imminent harm or death - that which caused you to shoot in the first place? I don't know. I am sure the LEOs will notice your wet pants though and ask about them.
 
I have been there you don't put your weapon down it may develop feet. put it in your holster have your ID not your wallet in your hand keep your hands in sight away from your weapon and wait for directions from the police.
 
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