Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Aw, shucks, CCCLVII, we've philosophized and opinionated all over the place. And all manner of good factual information! 
This poor woman is being demonized for shooting a lion legally
- Thread starter coldbeer
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In short...lets put the value of an illegally taken animal over the value of a human life. Yea, that's it... Death to all poachers.
Seriously???
PETA would be so proud.
leadcounsel,
FWIW, if there was a single person participating or even reading along in this thread that was taking your opinion into consideration, you may have just lost them with that scary proposal.
Since you have suggested that those that feel killing is hardwired into humans should not tell their shrink or they may be put away, might I suggest you not tell your shrink this brainstorm.
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leadcounsel
Moderator
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/9525512/Rhinos-under-24-hour-armed-guard.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/11/us-safrica-rhinos-idUSBRE93A0WP20130411
Severe penalties, including death, to poachers isn't so far fetched.
Apparently these armed guards CAN use lethal force to defend these endangered animals.
Sadly, guarding these animals has proven to not be effective. But clearly they need more resources. I believe that it's because there are too few resources devoted - hence the increase in resources. Perhaps the folks here would like to go gun these remaining 800 rhinos down in the name of 'preserving' them?
NOBODY here that promotes sport hunting has answered my simple question. How is it ethically different than cock fighting or dog fighting - which humans have done for centuries? Killing animals for your entertainment?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/11/us-safrica-rhinos-idUSBRE93A0WP20130411
Severe penalties, including death, to poachers isn't so far fetched.
Apparently these armed guards CAN use lethal force to defend these endangered animals.
Sadly, guarding these animals has proven to not be effective. But clearly they need more resources. I believe that it's because there are too few resources devoted - hence the increase in resources. Perhaps the folks here would like to go gun these remaining 800 rhinos down in the name of 'preserving' them?
NOBODY here that promotes sport hunting has answered my simple question. How is it ethically different than cock fighting or dog fighting - which humans have done for centuries? Killing animals for your entertainment?
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Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
"Perhaps the folks here would like to go gun these remaining 800 rhinos down in the name of 'preserving' them?"
What's that called in debating class? Strawman? Red Herring? Reducio ad absurdum or some such Latin phrase.
I imagine most of the hunting folks here would rather shoot poachers than any member of an endangered or threatened species.
What's that called in debating class? Strawman? Red Herring? Reducio ad absurdum or some such Latin phrase.
I imagine most of the hunting folks here would rather shoot poachers than any member of an endangered or threatened species.
leadcounsel
Moderator
Then Art said:
Apparently at least Art is with me on this point!
LockedBreech
New member
I think you have a poor understanding of his evolution works. You mentioned a few times in earlier posts that we have "evolved" beyond wanting to kill. In the Darwinian sense, evolution no longer even occurs in humans, since we can still procreate even if our poor genes never would produce survivable offspring outside of a sheltered civilization. With egg and sperm banks we're not even selected anymore. Evolution takes place through culling over hundreds of thousands or millions of years, not a few tens of thousands. The thought processes and norms overlying our instincts change as society does, but the underlying circuitry is mostly identical to men that existed when the wheel was invented.
How else would you explain that human sexual urges are still incredibly powerful and illogical, despite procreation being no longer necessary, in fact often actively avoided?
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leadcounsel
That's the hardwired predator, race car driver coming out in him.
Just didn't expect the same thoughts out of such a lover of all life as yourself.
If ya ever get that law passed, head down this way. There's a few poachers around these parts that need tended to.
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Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Dunno, shortwave. Probably close enough for government work. As I've said many times, my primary concern is for a species, with relatively little for the fate of any one member thereof. For certain species, concern for the habitat is also an issue, having to do with excess populations.
That's the reason for the culling of elephants in South Africa by government game wardens and certain invited hunters. Habitat protection, as elephants are very destructive.
As I've said many times, my primary concern is for a species, with relatively little for the fate of any one member thereof. For certain species, concern for the habitat is also an issue, having to do with excess populations.That's the reason for the culling of elephants in South Africa by government game wardens and certain invited hunters. Habitat protection, as elephants are very destructive.
I dont see it differently, other than people (the pack) say one is bad and the other is not bad. While I dont necessarily have to follow the rules of my pack (humans) I must be prepared to deal the the consequences if I choose not to follow the rules. I have never been to a dog fight and have no desire to do so but had I been born another time things may be different.
I know it sounds bad but its true. What is right and wrong change with time. Some day humans may again say its ok to hunt a species to extinction. Personally I hope not but its not impossible and it has certainly happened before.
The earth has gone through mass extinctions in the past. We as humans where given from nature the ability to kill off lesser species. What is one to deduce from this other than there is a good chance that nature built us for this very reason.
Is it our ultimate destiny to end this age and start a new age much like the ice age in the past or what ever killed the dinosaurs? Nature will balance things out. If we (humans) where not meant to be here we would not survive long.
Its sad and crewel but nature has always been such.
In the end we are just another animal on earth. The Planet will still be around and life will still be on it long after humans have gone the way of the dodo.
sorry for the rant.
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How about a South African perspective? Being a hunter from Africa I was much surprised by the local outcry over the Lion hunt. To be very clinical about it, the most people that criticised simply dont know what they are talking about. I spoke to a couple of these armchair critics, and was able to convince them of the bennifits for wildlife due to hunting as well as lion and trophy hunting in specific.
There are many ways to look at this. Lets take only 3:
Forget that htere is still enough space left in Africa for lions to walk free. There isnt. Ultimatly all Lions are fenced in, some in bigger spaces some in smaller spaces. Even the big national parks can only carry so many lions.
So where does the rest come from? Breeding farms. Who pays for this? The bunny huggers? The local corrupt governmants of Africa? No! Hunters pay to hunt them. So:
1. Supply and demand. Ecenomics 101
in Africa anything and everything gets devoured, and not allways in the good way. If a lion pride stands between someone getting an income or some corrupt deal. The lions will be killed. But if the lion pride generates an income they will be cared fore. So:
2. In Africa- if it doesnt pay, it doesnt stay!
It is fairly easy to breed lions. Thus it is not uncommen for lion breeding programs to be very proffitable( remember due to hunting demands), so much so that they more often than not fund other conservation needs, such as cheetah breeding programs. Where no hunting is allowed and the governmant could care less. So:
3. Conservation through ethical hunting.( aka sustainability through responsible utilization)
Notes: I have no need personaly to hunt lion. I dont like pure trophy hunting. But the simpel fact that you cant eat some trophy animals doesnt mean it nullyfies theire hunts for conservation funding. For example, the trophy fees goes to the local village, this then compensates the people for not starting comercial farming, for which there is no place for wild animals.
All of this is so simple and practical of you leave emotions out of it. It also has a name: The circle of live.
I am a hunter! What did you do for conservation today?
There are many ways to look at this. Lets take only 3:
Forget that htere is still enough space left in Africa for lions to walk free. There isnt. Ultimatly all Lions are fenced in, some in bigger spaces some in smaller spaces. Even the big national parks can only carry so many lions.
So where does the rest come from? Breeding farms. Who pays for this? The bunny huggers? The local corrupt governmants of Africa? No! Hunters pay to hunt them. So:
1. Supply and demand. Ecenomics 101
in Africa anything and everything gets devoured, and not allways in the good way. If a lion pride stands between someone getting an income or some corrupt deal. The lions will be killed. But if the lion pride generates an income they will be cared fore. So:
2. In Africa- if it doesnt pay, it doesnt stay!
It is fairly easy to breed lions. Thus it is not uncommen for lion breeding programs to be very proffitable( remember due to hunting demands), so much so that they more often than not fund other conservation needs, such as cheetah breeding programs. Where no hunting is allowed and the governmant could care less. So:
3. Conservation through ethical hunting.( aka sustainability through responsible utilization)
Notes: I have no need personaly to hunt lion. I dont like pure trophy hunting. But the simpel fact that you cant eat some trophy animals doesnt mean it nullyfies theire hunts for conservation funding. For example, the trophy fees goes to the local village, this then compensates the people for not starting comercial farming, for which there is no place for wild animals.
All of this is so simple and practical of you leave emotions out of it. It also has a name: The circle of live.
I am a hunter! What did you do for conservation today?
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IT DAN, well said. i too have hunted africa and plan to go again this june. i would like to ask the non hunters here to name five animals that sport hunters have pushed to exstinction (not market hunters). around here at the turn of the century deer,turkey,elk and bear were were very hard to find, but due to hunting and seasons with bag limites, they have rebounded back so we can hunt all the theses species with no danger to there surviving. poaching will always be with us as some just don,t care about the long term effect on the animals, but with hunters reporting these actions the effects can be lessened and true hunters and sportsman must be involved this. my thinking on hunting has always been(don,t kill your limit,but limit your kill). eastbank.
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lt dan,
Thank you for responding to this thread.
Being from Africa and knowing all the intimate details on the subject, your thoughts should carry a lot of weight.
But alas... I am sure your first hand knowledge and life experience's of actually living in Africa will be highly scrutinized and questioned by those that have never stepped foot in Africa but are insistent on imposing their thoughts and their way of life on you and all of Africa from afar.
A question for you lt dan I'm sure you can answer since you are from Africa. What has been the biggest factor/reasons over the years for the decline of the lion population(and other predator wildlife) in Africa?
Has it been the poaching?...has it been due to increased human population?...etc?
Thanks in advance for your response.
Thank you for responding to this thread.
Being from Africa and knowing all the intimate details on the subject, your thoughts should carry a lot of weight.
But alas... I am sure your first hand knowledge and life experience's of actually living in Africa will be highly scrutinized and questioned by those that have never stepped foot in Africa but are insistent on imposing their thoughts and their way of life on you and all of Africa from afar.
A question for you lt dan I'm sure you can answer since you are from Africa. What has been the biggest factor/reasons over the years for the decline of the lion population(and other predator wildlife) in Africa?
Has it been the poaching?...has it been due to increased human population?...etc?
Thanks in advance for your response.
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A question for you lt dan I'm sure you can answer since you are from Africa. What has been the biggest factor/reasons over the years for the decline of the lion population(and other predator wildlife) in Africa?
Has it been the poaching?...has it been due to increased human population?...etc?
Yes, increased human population combined with predictable lack of African governmants to protect a national asset.
The rapid decline of lion numbers in RSA tapered of since the influx of foreighn hunters willing to pay the big bucks, motivated farmers to set aside comercial farming land in order to breed lions.
One of the problems rectified by lion breeders was the poor gene pool in RSA. They imported lions from allover the word to get the quality of the pool to where it is suposed to be.
Once again this could only be achieved if hunters were willing to pay for the top males in the breeding program. Take note that lion breeders are highly regulated, and only lions of certain criteria are alowed to be hunted, and then only under certain conditions.
I want to repeat myself, I have a distaste for Lion hunting, but I have to make peace with the advantages this has for the lion population on general as well as the people involved with this.
Skoro, trophy hunting in general is getting more and more popular. Breeding trophy animals of any species are less labour intensive than commercial farming such as crops and cattle. Now if you follow RSA politics you will see that there are huge labour problems. So less employees = less problems+ less overheads.
However, nobody will atempt these breeding programs if there is not a steady stream of end users, aka trophy hunters. And that stream is pretty steady!!
FYI: of all hunting done in a calender year in RSA, local hunters contribute more than 90% of the turnover. This is mostly meat(biltong) hunters. So conservation needs the foreighn hunters that will spend big on one animal
Has it been the poaching?...has it been due to increased human population?...etc?
Yes, increased human population combined with predictable lack of African governmants to protect a national asset.
The rapid decline of lion numbers in RSA tapered of since the influx of foreighn hunters willing to pay the big bucks, motivated farmers to set aside comercial farming land in order to breed lions.
One of the problems rectified by lion breeders was the poor gene pool in RSA. They imported lions from allover the word to get the quality of the pool to where it is suposed to be.
Once again this could only be achieved if hunters were willing to pay for the top males in the breeding program. Take note that lion breeders are highly regulated, and only lions of certain criteria are alowed to be hunted, and then only under certain conditions.
I want to repeat myself, I have a distaste for Lion hunting, but I have to make peace with the advantages this has for the lion population on general as well as the people involved with this.
Skoro, trophy hunting in general is getting more and more popular. Breeding trophy animals of any species are less labour intensive than commercial farming such as crops and cattle. Now if you follow RSA politics you will see that there are huge labour problems. So less employees = less problems+ less overheads.
However, nobody will atempt these breeding programs if there is not a steady stream of end users, aka trophy hunters. And that stream is pretty steady!!
FYI: of all hunting done in a calender year in RSA, local hunters contribute more than 90% of the turnover. This is mostly meat(biltong) hunters. So conservation needs the foreighn hunters that will spend big on one animal
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lt dan,
Very interesting. Thanks again.
If I ever was fortunate enough to be able to come to Africa to hunt, the lion would definitely not be on my list of quarries either. No interest.
Same with hunting certain popular species here in the states. And the methods in which they are hunted. Again, no interest.
But it is not for me to impose my personal feelings on those that hunt animals that I have no interest in hunting or for me to turn my nose up at the legal methods a person is using to hunt the same.
I know that a lot of the $'s that a person is spending on hunting/fishing whatever animal in this country by whatever legal means necessary is going for the betterment of all conservation.
Again lt dan ,
Thanks for the insight of how it actually works in Africa.
Very interesting. Thanks again.
If I ever was fortunate enough to be able to come to Africa to hunt, the lion would definitely not be on my list of quarries either. No interest.
Same with hunting certain popular species here in the states. And the methods in which they are hunted. Again, no interest.
But it is not for me to impose my personal feelings on those that hunt animals that I have no interest in hunting or for me to turn my nose up at the legal methods a person is using to hunt the same.
I know that a lot of the $'s that a person is spending on hunting/fishing whatever animal in this country by whatever legal means necessary is going for the betterment of all conservation.
Again lt dan ,
Thanks for the insight of how it actually works in Africa.
leadcounsel
Moderator
Why are lion numbers decimated? Human hunting. Seems quite straightforward.
How do they repair? Stop hunting.
Any other answer is selfish grredy spin.
How do they repair? Stop hunting.
Any other answer is selfish grredy spin.
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