This poor woman is being demonized for shooting a lion legally

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You sure that it is "sport" and not pack bonding or skills practice in the safety of the group?

Calories are precious in nature. They are not typically wasted on activities that don't serve a higher purpose.

We could argue semantics all day. A father and son sport hunting together could be referred to as pack bonding.

There are well documented reports of ranchers in the western US finding cattle that have been killed by wolves and not consumed, in fact sometimes several cattle are found in the same location and none show signs of consumption by the wolves.
And anyone who has owned a cat will tell you stories of the pet killing mice or birds for "sport." Many will say, it's their natural instinct...well, we are just animals too.

I'm not condoning wanton killing, with the only explanation being that we are hard wired to do so. We are "higher mammals" afterall, and we have more refined brain functions to attempt to quell our primal minds.
but that primal mind must be fed by some pursuit. I recommend Desmond Morris' books "The Naked Ape" or "The Human Animal" to anyone interested on the subject or evolution on the modern human condition.
 
Dragline, I might be more clear to say that the change in behavior is away from "kill" but still operating with the predatory instinct. You don't kill an enemy; you bankrupt him or beat him in the election primaries. Or maybe steal his girlfriend. :)

Grocery store food means we can hunt other types of targets, without physical weapons. But the hunting instinct remains with us as the top predator on the planet.

And some of us still see value in "the hunt" for wild animals. It's one of the few equal-opportunity activities, not limited to royalty or the rich.
 
I just don't understand the outrage. Mrs Bachman didn't break any laws yet she's being vilified by the press and South Africa wants to ban her from the country? I have a feeling if she was an old grey haired Danish man there wouldn't be a problem, but an attractive American woman killing a lion is a big deal to these people. I guess I shouldn't be surprised considering South Africa isn't exactly known for equality.
 
We could argue semantics all day. A father and son sport hunting together could be referred to as pack bonding.

There are well documented reports of ranchers in the western US finding cattle that have been killed by wolves and not consumed, in fact sometimes several cattle are found in the same location and none show signs of consumption by the wolves.
And anyone who has owned a cat will tell you stories of the pet killing mice or birds for "sport." Many will say, it's their natural instinct...well, we are just animals too.

But the semantics are important here.
Some members are alluding to the fact that trophy hunters are somehow displaying something that is innate through evolution. Members are then trying to support that by humanizing animal behaviours.

Hunters kill. That much is the same in nature. But Trophy Hunters do so to be able to say/show/know that they killed that particular animal. If it was for the food they would eat it. If it was for the sake of seeing it in the wild they could take a photo and go home. The culmination is the pull of that trigger and often, the photo-op over the corpse. The animal's death signals the success of the outing.
For regular hunters, despite elation at the time of the kill, the meal on the plate is the ultimate sign of the hunt's success because that was the hunt's original purpose. Some may hunt to protect their crops/cattle. If it did not threaten their crops/cattle, they would not hunt that animal. They are not killing for the sake of killing.

Aside from the motivations I listed earlier, the examples you gave could be attributed to a behavioural positive feedback loop after a particularly intense hunt in the case of the wolves (akin to feeding frenzies in sharks for example), or a cat using its hunting skills out of instinct because all its dietary needs come from a tin. The movement of the bird hopping or the mouse scurrying flips that switch. It is a hardwired reaction: it is not recreation in the human sense.

In the animal kindgom, there are certain major motivators. The instinct to survive, to feed and to procreate and all of them are there to serve to progression of genes to the next generation, in one way or another.

One thing that does set humans is that we can control evolutionary instincts in behaviour. That is why we have a system of ethical values.
For me, ethics are the crux of this issue. Differing ethical values about what different people perceive as acceptable and responsible.

You don't kill an enemy; you bankrupt him or beat him in the election primaries. Or maybe steal his girlfriend.

That is not a predatory instinct. That is a "desire to mate" instinct.

Get the Alpha Male status and you get the girls. This has nothing to do with killing.
Male-on-Male bouts in the wild only last until one of the contenders backs down. That is rarely when one dies although it can come to that if both feel they are strongest. Often, some vocalisation and posturing is enough to show the under-dog he is no match for the "dude" opposite. It ends there, with no loss of blood/life.

The macho mentality is just that: the big car, the big wrist-watch, the showy behaviour, even the friday night bar brawl. There is a reason these are often the butt of the "compensation" joke. This has nothing to do with the acquisition of food, which is what predation is designed for.
 
There are well documented reports of ranchers in the western US finding cattle that have been killed by wolves and not consumed, in fact sometimes several cattle are found in the same location and none show signs of consumption by the wolves.

it is the prey drive that overrides everything else, if the wolf gets into a pen it will continue to kill until it is distureb

out in the wild the animals will flee/scatter in a pen that is impossible

For regular hunters, despite elation at the time of the kill, the meal on the plate is the ultimate sign of the hunt's success because that was the hunt's original purpose.

there are other purposes to, keep populations down first and foremost. but management in general, most ecosystems nowadays needs human intervention
 
But, Ruger480, we are animals. Omnivore mammals. Top of the food chain predators. The difference between homo sap and other animals is self-awareness and the brain power to make the tools which put us on top.
 
If we get back to the original question of this thread, it's brutally simple.

The fact is that "trophy hunters" (and the income they bring) have done more to preserve habitat and animals in Africa than any animal rights organization. We can argue whether this is the best way to conserve the wildlife habitat, but it's the way that works best right now. There are places in the world where Elephants, Lions, Leopards, etc. must be culled to prevent overpopulation, why pay someone to do it and destroy the animal when you can get some rich westerner to pay large amounts of money to come remove the animals. Then use the meat to feed a village, use the money to manage the land and employ locals.
Sounds like a win-win to me


Yes, the kill invokes a "postive feedback loop" in humans also The fact that we are animals must be accepted. Sure, society imposes restrictions on the instinct, and in fact the control of such animal parts are necessary to civilization itself. But to deny that those instincts are there often does more harm than good.
I don't disagree with James Pond's evidence, I just come to different conclusions. In prehistoric times, the best hunter was often the most revered person in a community, which in turn gave him the pick of mates, materials, etc. I don't believe the two can be separated if we are talking about evolution of the hunting/mating instinct.

Ruger480 has it:D
 
...we are animals. Omnivore mammals. Top of the food chain predators. The difference between homo sap and other animals is self-awareness and the brain power to make the tools which put us on top.
]

Without the self awareness and the brain power humans have to make our killing tools, we would be less adequate as a predator then many other more physically adapted predators and would not be at the top of the food chain. Far as the physical makeup of predators goes, humans aren't all that.

Tis why I always find it comical when someone is bashing hunters saying things such as "why don't you hunters show how manly you are and hunt animals with no weapons" or "if you hunters want to even the field with the poor animals why don't you hunt without guns/bows etc".

Why? Cause of the brain power I was blessed with that gives me the skill level and knowledge to use tools to remain at the top of the food chain that's why. And, the human animal has no apologies to make for doing so.
 
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I guess this entire thread can be summed up in one sentence. Were it not for hunters like the woman featured, there would have been no lion for her to have shot.
 
BINGO, we have a winner. the poucher takes any animal caught in his/their wire snares,female-young for the sale or pot to be eaten. any thing caught in the snare is going to be killed. i passed up many animals in africa for being female,young or not suitible to be taken and the guild decided what game animals were to be taken not the hunter. believe me it would have been a lot cheaper to stay home and eat beef that some one else killed. eastbank.
 
That's almost correct. Members are supporting that by animalizing human behavior. You have it backwards.

No. I do not.

There is first the claim that trophy hunting is a throwback from evolution: that is trying to apply a claimed animal activity to humans.

Then there is the claim that animals kill for the pleasure of killing. (the cats, the wolves etc) That is humanizing animal behaviour.
 
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We can argue whether this is the best way to conserve the wildlife habitat, but it's the way that works best right now.

We can indeed argue about that and I think my position is clear.

Besides, it does virtually nothing to conserve habitat.

It, at best, is slowing the rate of decline in numbers, not stopping it nor reversing it.

As I said earlier, whilst lion numbers do need to be improved it is pointless if habitat erosion is not countered and redressed.

So the next question (and more important, IMO) is: if it is not the best solution, are we actually going to do anything about it?

If the answer is NO, then we can kiss the lion goodbye whether it is be in 30 years time with some of the activity in these reserves or in 20 years time without. The result is the same and not one that any of us should congratulating ourselves over.
When they are all gone, trophy hunters can proclaim: "...and I killed one of them."

If the answer is YES, then then let's stop treating trophy hunting as the saviour it is not and start looking for solutions that will actually, at the very least, cease the decline but should really be designed to kick-start a recovery.

If the very best we can do for lion populations and other species in a similar boat is trophy hunting sponsored conservation in encapsulated domains then we have little to be proud of.
It isn't going to save these animals in the long term.

If people aren't even bothered about saving the lion, at least be honest about it and please refrain from using conservation as a justification for this type of hunting.

There are places in the world where Elephants, Lions, Leopards, etc. must be culled to prevent overpopulation

Such as?
 
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James Pond - Certain male animal species will battle and sometimes kill the leading alpha male in order to take over the group or flock in order to gain mating rights.

Could it be...that during our caveman ancient history days: that killing or running off the alpha male of any human group led to mating rights of a tribe for the victor, which could have been ingrained in our human psych; which is a form of trophy hunting. Which is in similarity for example: Anglo Saxon American buffalo hunters --- by first killing off the alpha male buffalo of the herd --- would leave the rest of the herd standing still in a quandary about what to do, leaving the rest of the herd as easy slaughter for the buffalo hunters.
 
it does no good to talk to the saviors of the animal kingdom.as they don,t put their money where their mouth is,here in the states there are taxs on all hunting gear that the hunters ask for and is returned to the states according to the hunting licenses that are sold. and their are more animals here than before hunting licenses were mandated,deer,sheep,bear and turkeys ect.with out sport hunting in africa the animals will dissappear in short order. the sport hunter does not shoot all the animals in any area where hunting is allowed, the locals will kill and eat or sale all they can get as most small african countries don,t have the resources to feed all their people let alone get them jobs.and they don,t have welfare as we do here. if all sport hunting goes, so do the animals. eastbank.
 
Pond,

First off, thanks for discussion. I do not agree with you, but I do appreciate your opinion.

In my own opinion, hunting animals, either wild or ranched, is ONE of the many ways people can protect a species. Trophy hunting does apply a certain monetary value to an individual animal. IT is this cash value that gets folks thinking about the continuation of the species. When African's (very general) found out that someone will pay $20,000 US to shoot a lion, they automatically start thinking about the poacher who takes them for free. They start thinking about planting that food plot in prime habitat, especially when the rice or grain it grows is only worth a few hundred bucks.

Trophy hunters, like them or not, are more often then not, members of conservation minded organizations like Safari Club International, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, The Wild Sheep Foundation, Ducks Unlimited...the list goes on. Many trophy hunters have deep wallets, many donate vast amounts of cash for habitat restoration, game relocation, biological studies, water development projects, etc.

Many animals that are on the edge in the wild, are successfully being farmed and ranched on private lands and preserves. Not much different from zoo's, with the exception of a few being hunted to fund the ranching. Not a far leap from charging $20 for a day of looking at the lion in the cage at San Diego?

Finally, the idea that we must eat everything we hunt doesn't really hold water. Humans use animals for a myriad of purposes, food being but just one.

It all boils down to the fact - If an animal has monetary value, it is more than likely that it will survive as a species a lot better than an animal that doesn't!

Thanks again for the conversation. Continue reloading and shooting that .44 in the Baltic!
 
It seems to me that killing for pure recreation is something that has evolved from Mankind, not been retained from primitive ancestors.

Exactly. In animals, even the rare examples of 'sport' hunting (the housecat who stalks and kills the bird or rodent and bats it around, or the wolf pack, etc.), these animals 1) cannot think as higher enlightened beings, and 2) are honing their actual innate killing skills (use of claws, stalking, running, pouncing, etc.), for which they believe they need to survive, or to train others in the litter.

Brian Pf said:
You say humans are hard-wired "to eat". What, pray tell, do you suppose they are hard-wired to eat? It ain't lettuce and tomatoes. We eat meat. Meat comes from animals. Animals die by our hands to get that meat. We are hard-wired to kill our food.
Please re-read and digest my posts. I eat meat. I am not naïve as to its origin. I'm purely discussing SPORT HUNTING. I take no enjoyment from the death of cows and chickens for my food. But I understand the origin.

Much of the world is dirt poor and uneducated. Much of the world abuses people too. Modern slavery, sex trade and rape, slave camps, abusing women (women have no rights), etc. Some Asian cultures literally abuse and make animals suffer before slaughter because of beliefs that it enhances the meat. Or they believe in special potions from certain rare animal parts. Humans used to pray to the sun God, and the God of weather.

Should we do that too?

Of course not. WE humans have evolved, and have the capacity for reason, thought, and empathy.

Humans who hunt FOR FUN, not for sustenance, are not psychologically healthy IMO, because they are ending a life for their own enjoyment. Again, no different than the drug dealing thug who abuses and fights pit bulls because he enjoys watching suffering. Anyone that disagrees might suggest this to their doctor - that they enjoy killing things. See the response ...

Pond makes excellent points. If the best we can do is hunting them to preserve them, then that is a sad state of affairs for the human ingenuity. I propose a massively severe penalty - death - for anyone poaching these animals. Equal punishment for the trade of prohibited furs, tusks, teeth, etc. Death. That would help the population recover.

Using the 'logic' of hunting to 'preserve' the species - does anyone here propose we hunt Condors or Bald Eagles? Surely the 'sport hunting' logic would make these populations skyrocket. Of course, that is a silly suggestion. We placed federal penalties and state penalties on hunting endangered animals in the United States, and it is quite effective.
 
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If the best we can do is hunting them to preserve them, then that is a sad state of affairs for the human ingenuity. I propose a massively severe penalty - death - for anyone poaching these animals. Equal punishment for the trade of prohibited furs, tusks, teeth, etc. Death. That would help the population recover.

Seriously?

We don't even effectively have the death penalty for murder of human beings, and you want to end someone's life for "the killing of the King's game"?

No.
 
leadcounsel, your mission, if you care to attempt it, is to create a system which will provide African animals with broad-spread local-person effective protection in the absence of monetary value. Budgetary constraints are to be considered. :)

Note that eagles and condors are not game species, which are the subjects of this thread. Reductions in numbers never were due to sport hunters.

Personal opinion: Braggadocio via Facebook strikes me as rather adolescent, but I fail to get excited about any form of legal hunting which does not endanger a species. Granted, I have a race-car-driver viewpoint about existing protective systems: If it works, it's good; otherwise it's a waste of money, time and psychic energy. :)
 
Death for poaching? Wow people think im crazy. I thought we evolved way past that when we came out of the dark ages.

How long has modern humans been on the earth? I dont know for sure but to say that we have experienced any real evolution in the past 100,000 years in not realistic. Evolution takes millions and millions of years. If cave men evolved to do some thing chances are we still have the same drive to do it.

Society may have subdued it to some extent but we all have a violent ape under our thin layer of humanity.

As to what this has to do with the op? I am not sure but I admit I did not read every post.
 
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