This isn't a joke

As brother Sanchez has noted, if you aren't justified in using deadly force, you should not fire at all. If you want to give your opponent a "boo-boo," an instrument every court in the world recognizes as a lethal weapon is not the tool of choice.

The shot to the pelvis most certainly IS deadly force. Many major arteries branch there, and for a number of other reasons shots to the pelvic area are often lethal.

The only justifiable reason for using deadly force is to STOP an attacker. Saying "I shot to kill" is saying, "My reason for shooting was to deprive the man I shot of his life." That plays right into a Murder conviction or, in civil court, a Wrongful Death finding by the jury. "I shot to stop him (from killing or crippling me or someone else I had the right to protect)" is, on the other hand, the very embodiment of justifiable use of deadly force as articulated in the statutes and criminal codes. Your purpose and intent in firing the shot is critical to the legal outcome of the shooting.

Since the 1970s, I've taught my students to index their weapon on the opponent's pelvis when they must take him at gunpoint. The main reason is a tactical one: IT ALLOWS YOU TO WATCH THE OPPONENT'S HANDS! If you aim at his chest or head, your hand(s) and your gun block your view of his hands, allowing him to draw and shoot you before you can even see him reaching for his pocket or waistband. He can't hide his hands from you if you have your weapon leveled on him pelvis-high. There are other reasons -- including the psychological aspect mentioned by several posters previously -- but the ability to watch the hands is the big reason to take the opponent at gunpoint with a pelvic aim.

It alarms me a little that some folks think they can't draw a gun on a violent offender until they are justified in killing him. If they wait that long, they won't be able to do anything BUT shoot him...or die...and if they wait that long, those two outcomes may not be mutually exclusive.

Finally, a bullet that seriously fractures the pelvis tends to drop a human before he can take another step. When facing a "contact weapon assault" -- Knife, club, disparity of force unarmed assault, or an attempt to take your weapon -- this is a faster neutralization of the opponent than waiting up to fifteen seconds or so for him to collapse because a bullet through the heart has finally deprived his brain of sufficient oxygenated blood to remain conscious. It is with this in mind that many instructors suggest the pelvis as an alternative to the brain for follow-up shots if gunfire to the chest has failed to neutralize an obviously homicidal opponent.
 
booker t has tthe right idea
As a civilian, if I pull a firearm on an attacker I'm pulling the trigger unless they immediately cease the attack as I draw. There are no intermediate levels of escalation between drawing and firing. Until I'm ready to deploy lethal force to stop an attacker, the gun stays holstered.

i wouldnt pull the gun unless i intend to shoot. anything less is asking for trouble.
 
i wouldnt pull the gun unless i intend to shoot. anything less is asking for trouble.

So your saying "don't pull your gun at all or shoot him dead". I understand where your coming from, but I couldn't disagree more. There are many situations that call for you to hold someone at gunpoint. I'll give you one.

A good friend of mine pulled up to his mother's house and observed a burgler crawling into his mother's window. He ran into the house then turned around and retrieved his pistol out of his truck. He went to the door of the room he thought the burgler was in and pushed the door. It didn't move. He told the guy "you might as well come out. I have a gun." The man opened the door and came out with his hands up. My buddy put the gun to the man's head and led him to the carport. He called the police and the man went to jail. Should he have shot him on sight? Heck no. Nevermind the law, we are Christians around here and shooting a man who has his hands up is wrong.
 
However you think you want to handle a dangerous situation, you'd better make up your mind about it and PRACTICE how you intend to react because when the stuff-hits-the-fan you quite simply are NOT going to be in any condition to think about it. You will react to whatever training (deliberate or unintentional) you've had that relates to the situation. Unfortunately, for some people that unintentional training comes from watching too much TV.

As for shooting to wound...... I've seen too many people continue to move around and still function for many minutes after being shot to believe it would be a good idea..... and as for hoping to break the pelvis with a well placed shot? Mabey you've never heard of a recreational drug called PCP, but I've seen it in action and I've seen people on PCP ignore broken bones..... very scary situations. If you cannot bring yourself to use deadly force in a specific situation..... then run-like-heck and have no shame about it.
 
^^^I don't know if shooting someone in the pelvis is the best idea but it doesn't matter if you're on PCP or extremely motivated if certain bones break you're not going to be able to certain body parts. For example if breaks your arm just because you're on PCP your still not going to be able to move your arm. You might be able to ignore the pain but if a bone is broken, then it's broken.
 
What 45ACPShooter said. (And Mas Ayoob, and some others.) If the pelvis is broken apart, the guy will be physically unable to walk or stand. Even if he's high on PCP or some other drug and feels no pain, he still will be unable to walk or stand.

What I'd like to know is whether caliber and type of bullet makes a difference in how likely you are to achieve this goal. Would a .38 +P (for example) shot through an obese abdomen reach a bone with enough FPS left to break it? Would a .357 or a .45 ACP? What other considerations should go into deciding to take this shot rather than a head shot, or a COM shot?
 
i wouldnt pull the gun unless i intend to shoot. anything less is asking for trouble.
In all but a few states, pulling the gun if you are not justified in using deadly force is asking for real trouble.

However, things can change instantly, and if the justification ceases, you had better not shoot.

There are many situations that call for you to hold someone at gunpoint.
Very few, actually. First, check the law on citizens arrests in your jurisdiction.

And while it may seam to be the right thing to do, what do you do if that someone elects to not comply (hint: in 99% of the cases, you may not shoot)? What if you shoot inadvertently? What about that accomplice who ambushes you when you are preoccupied? The armed citizen, to whom you look like a bad guy? The arriving sheriff summoned by someone else?

Not a good idea. It's for television, movies, and comic books.
 
not sure

If i am in fear of my life and pulling the gun...
i only know i am taking aim for the biggest part of the body..
no head.. no leg.. foot, or anything.... it takes to long, and really...
hitting a fast moving target that small is not likely... espically if your moving..
then to zero in on a hand size target area like the hip.. no way..
not me...

I am not sure what i would do in that situation... I only know if i aim.. it is for the area i have least chance of missing... The only thing i am sure i would worry about is where that round goes after my shot..

With that in mind.. eariler post of a guy getting his house broken into at 3:30 am.. i am worried about stuff like that.. did he use all 6 rounds?

good reason for a shot gun..
 
I would stay outside from a safe distance ,calling 911, & observing all that I can to help the police with info.
I have about 15 weapons in my home & if someone is in there taking my chit & I only have one handgun on me, I will wait for the authorities to arrvie :cool: for sure, unless me & the badguy are face to face. :eek:
If that moment comes into play, then it is on old west style. :mad:
 
I'm glad that there are many of you who would call the police and wait for them to clear the house if you noticed your home was broken in to. I'm somewhat surprised actually. I was using that as a possible scenario where you would have your gun out, but not necesarily have to shoot the intruder. I'm sure there are other scenarios where you might get the drop on a bad guy and have the option of not shooting him. This is probably more common in disparity of force situations where the bad guy has not shown he is armed. Regardless of how you get into the situation of having a gun on a bad guy that has either put down their weapon or not displayed a weapon, I believe it is important to show enough resolve to shoot so it does not turn into a attempted gun grab.

As for cocking back the hammer, I mentioned that extreme caution must be used. Some double action pulls are pretty heavy and people with weaker hands (older people or some women) may have a problem shooting accurately the first shot. I think a bad guy would also be more likely to try a gun grab on those same people. I will read what was written about cocking back the hammer, but for me, it would be one last step before pulling the trigger.

Like I said, I will do what I can to prevent pulling the trigger, but if I have no other choice, I would do so to protect myself and my family. I just don't agree with the notion that you have to shoot someone if you are justified in pulling your gun. If you don't believe how many crimes are prevented by someone pulling out a gun and not shooting, try reading the Armed Citizen section of American Rifleman. If the person stops is no longer a threat because they surrender or flee, I am not shooting. Often time it will require the use of force, or the threat of force to get the bad guy to surrender or flee. While some of you are the "take out the garbage" kind of guy, I'm more the shoot only if really necessary type.
 
I was in the 70s a patrolman for the Reno Police Department. I was half way through a 4 year degree in college at University of Nevada Reno. Our training then was the weapon was never drawn unless we had to shoot. We never brandished our guns to a problem unless the situation meant to draw and shoot without any warning shots or display of lethal force. When the weapon is drawn for the last response the intent and training was to fire "center of mass" with our .357s loaded with issued Remington 125 SJHPs until the threat was subdued.

I cannot recall a case where a second shot had to be fired. All threats were stopped by the one .357 bullet in every case since the early 70s when Reno adopted the round for standard issue. Some still carried their old .38s but I am not talking about that and can't recall a .38 having to be shot.

I do remember a sergeant who shot a warning shot in a house development area above King's Row but I can't remember the details except his "warning shot" was brought under review by the Shooting Board.

When I became a police officer in Reno our training then in the 70s was to shoot or not to shoot using DA only and range time with .38 semi wadcutters in the basement range. I had two guns then, one the SW 19 in a 4" and an SW 28 in 6". I later just used the 28 because my 19 had timing issues just after firing .38s for our range time. We would shoot every month to qualify and it was around 50 or 60 rounds each time.

The main thing is the gun was never drawn unless it had to be fired at the targeted human being. We had to be evaluated on the Oral Board, the physical, the psychological, the written exam, and the polygraph before even being considered for the academy. By that time hesitation concerning killing a human being was definitely ruled out. No officer ever sacrifices his life for anyone. When he draws his gun he is in a survival situation and whoever is preventing or threatening survival is going to be shot.

We have films and movies showing the "sensitive" cop or something that won't shoot unless he has to. This is Hollywood or Italian Spaghetti stuff. It is not real in the LEO department.

The Shooting Board reviews every discharge of a weapon. The process is reviewed and judged. It can look bad or look right for the officer but no officer is above the Board when it happens and it means painstaking inquiry into the discharge of the weapon.

This was all back in the 70s and 80s for me. I remember it crystal clear.

If the weapon is taken into the hand it is not to be used as a threat. It is to be used to kill and nothing else. Once it is brandished it must be fired. All the options have gone out the window.

Now you see why I like the Colt SAA in the hip holster to this day. If you have to draw a gun (and, of course, you must shoot it at center of mass) you must follow through and fire it. Period. No warning. End of conflict.
 
You got it all right except this one. Except for controlling the bleeding and treating for shock, there's very little a layman with no equipment can do for a gunshot victim (and I use that term loosely) in the field.
Nothing said about surgery or sutures, just plug the hole with a rag to slow down the bleeding. whether he dies or not is moot for your situation. You tried to render aid but it was to late. If the authorities show up, he is bleeding profusely but breathing and you have been watching him for 10 minutes before they got there you can be charged with intentionally letting him die if he dies before they can get him to the hospital.

While he is a danger to you and your family as far as I am concerned he has no rights to any consideration. Once the danger is past and he is neutralized he is back to human status again and should be accorded at least minimal aid even if its only compression. I'd rather have him live than fill another body bag, I never want to see that again, ever.
 
It alarms me a little that some folks think they can't draw a gun on a violent offender until they are justified in killing him. If they wait that long, they won't be able to do anything BUT shoot him...or die...and if they wait that long, those two outcomes may not be mutually exclusive.

I agree. I wonder how many lives have been lost because the victim waited until the attack was underway rather than draw a weapon when the attack looked imminent.

In the former case, the gun may never get drawn in time, and if it is, shooting an assailant is the best that can happen.

In the latter, drawing the gun may prevent the attack in the first place and having to shoot would be the worst outcome.

I believe Mas has pointed that out before.:cool:

Again, I'm not talking about brandishing, but rather being sensible enough to access a weapon when the attack looks "imminent", lest we not have time to to access it at all. Remember the Tueller drill?.
 
IT ALLOWS YOU TO WATCH THE OPPONENT'S HANDS!

Some of my friends that came back from Iraq said they watched the peoples hands not their faces etc. I took this as a good thing for self defense.
 
If you use a gun you have to expect the dead result. You can attempt to save a life but the thinking here is a bit beyond the delivery.

Don't deliver unless the delivery is absolutely needed.

The rest is up to others and you have to trust the others to work the situation while someone working with you is defending you.
 
Oy vey! This thread's responses overlook the obvious.

hog_hunter said:
IMHO a "BG" is someone that puts you or one of your loved ones life in danger, and in that instant, Shoot to kill without hesitation.

booker_t said:
As a civilian, if I pull a firearm on an attacker I'm pulling the trigger unless they immediately cease the attack as I draw. There are no intermediate levels of escalation between drawing and firing. Until I'm ready to deploy lethal force to stop an attacker, the gun stays holstered.

To wit: It's just before midnight and you're awakened by the sound of a car out front. A moment later you hear someone on your front porch. You tell your wife to call 911, grab your trusty [insert choice] and tac-light and step to the end of the hallway. Your intent is to (a) be between "him" and your family and (b) visually see what's going on. However, you reach the end of the hall only to find the front door open and the BG standing there, about 10-11 feet away longingly looking at your HDTV. You're in the dark hallway and you have the pepper on him for a short trip to Hades.

Do you shoot him? Or do you issue commands from the darkness? Or light him up and then give him commands? Or do you simply retreat quietly back down the hallway?

To answer the OP's question presumes we take some action. From the corner of the hallway you light him up with your Xenon powered death-ray tac-light and (with all the macho as you can¹) issue the command "GET OUT OF MY HOUSE! GET OUT OF HERE NOW!"²

We do this because our position is one of surprise and tactical advantage of being ready to squeeze the trigger. If he sees anything it might look something like this...
WomanPointingGun2.jpg

(your appearance...and mine...will certainly vary)

Once you've issued the command, what happens next determines if people have a really bad night or not. If he flees out the door, well and good. We have done our job of protecting the home.³ No one was hurt and he may spend extra money cleaning his shorts.

If his actions are to abruptly face you and/or make any threatening move, use your own judgement. Prepare for a long night, new carpeting and some paint and spackle on the walls.

If he freezes up and doesn't move, you order him to leave. If he still won't move, I'd be very wary. Order him to put his hands on his head. If he still won't comply after two tries, hold on him and tell him as long as he remains still, he will get to meet the cops in one piece.

Lastly, we come to the one I'd dread the most. If the intruder starts talking to you about getting the "wrong house" but then starts telling you that you really don't want to shoot or that shooting him will cause all sort of legal hassles, that's a red flag warning! Watch his hands and his position. If you see him trying to inch closer he's trying to jump you. I saw films of convicts practicing this on each other in the 70's. If I catch the guy doing it, a step back, if practical, and telling him to get on the floor would be next.

My preference is for the BG to flee the area so I can call the cops and we can all live for another day.

Note that we get into a similar situation in a car park if Harvey Hoodlum approaches you as you reach your car and you draw on him. If he drops his weapon and backs up, hands raised... what do you do with him? Me... I tell him to get lost. Once he departs, then I'm going to depart while still in high-alert until I'm safely miles away.

What if he doesn't? Then command him to back up. You want distance from him and it's best to make him move. If he won't depart the area, try to get him on the ground so you can call police (or a bystander calls).

Mas Ayoob said:
It alarms me a little that some folks think they can't draw a gun on a violent offender until they are justified in killing him. If they wait that long, they won't be able to do anything BUT shoot him...or die...and if they wait that long, those two outcomes may not be mutually exclusive.
While I sometimes have a difference of opinion with Mr. Ayoob, this is not one of them. On some occasions we can "see trouble coming". At those times, where possible, I'd rather unholster and keep a low profile. If I'm wrong, simply reholster. If I'm right then I have an advantage.


Re: Warning shots: Don't.
Re: Clearing your house: Don't. You pay the cops for that. Stay outside. If a thief leaves watch for a 2nd one. Get all the info you can.

Re: Shoot to kill vs. to wound: Don't be silly.
If the situation is really life threatening, your shots should go COM until the threat stops. IF for some reason your only shot hits the pelvic girdle and stops him fine. If police asked, I'd say "I guess I flinched."

re: Applying first aid: Don't. At the risk of sounding cruel, heartless or vengeful, I'm not going to go near someone who a second ago was threatening my life. I am not in a position (especially if solo) to administer any medical aid while also keeping him from suddenly attacking me. If he's down, but conscious, alert and in pain, telling him to put pressure on it or tossing him a towel/bandage to self-administer is as close as I'll get.


¹ For some, no matter how hard they try, their voices will crack with nervous tension. Thus, those commands may sound like they're coming from Don Knotts going through puberty.
² One can substitute other commands, such as don't move! depending on your preference. Just don't use the word freeze. :rolleyes:
³ Always be sure to turn on the lights afterwards and check the house for accomplices however.
 
...but I've had thoughts about the old issue related to people having a gun thinking it will scare the BG into submission.

Not sure what you mean.
I don't mean anything. I'm simply referring to the notion that merely pointing a gun at someone guarantees your safety.
 
Back
Top