This isn't a joke

Shooting to wound frys your justified use ofdeadly physical force, because misusing deadly physical force in such a manner tells the judge, and jury, that you yourself didn't believe you had the right to use deadly physical force. The prosecutor will make sure they see that point of view. You will default to your highest level of training, which for most people is centor of mass.
Threaten gangbagers and thugs with a gun? Some will run, but I wouldn't try it; most of them have already been shot, survived, and really don't want to do it again, so if they think you are just threatening without the stones to use it, you may be disarmed and killed. I work with violent felons, and this is thier mindset. Pointing a gun at them without shooting is a serious disrespect issue, and you must be corrected. At the cost of your life.
As for the home question, yes, call PD, nothing inside is worth your life, but in AZ, the law specifically allows for deadly physical foirce to prevent burglary in the 1st and 2nd degree, being burglary of an occupied structure and armed burglary. I don't reccomend going inside to he-man clear your home, leave that to the professionals with vests and backup. If you absolutely have to, as stated, for defense of a vulnerable adult or child, then do what you have to do, and the law is pretty much on your side in this state. The courts will decide much later.
 
I tend to agree with the idea that if you have to pull your gun, deadly force, as defined by your local laws, should already be authorized. In my own mind, I never intend to pull my gun unless I am authorized to use it. Yes, there are varying degrees of threat and pulling your gun may occasionally be enough to defuse a situation and make a perp flee, but you shouldn't think that everything will be ok if I just pull my gun out.

Over my career I made over 1,000 apprehensions UNARMED. Which is crazy, but hey, that was part of my job. In general, when a bad guy is caught, their initial reaction is to try to run away. Most of them are also smart enough to know that even the police can't just shoot someone for running away from them. So, its reasonable to believe that if approached by a BG, and you pull your weapon, he may turn and run. At this point, the threat to you is over. Letting him run away is your best legal option. Over the years I've never had to pull my gun on an individual, but I did diffuse a situation by pulling my jacket open and revealing my concealed firearm. In that case, I knew the person creating the threat was unarmed and he was far enough away that I could have drawn on him if necessary.

Bottom line: Know your rights in your state. I don't consider a weapon an opportunity to intimidate. Its a tool used to save lives. Chances are, if I am in a situation where I have to draw, I'll be firing.
 
Posted by stephen426: Say you get home and you notice your home has been broken into. Honestly, how many of you would actually call the police and wait for them to clear the house (especially if police response time is bad in your area) instead of going in and checking things out for yourself? I am certain that anyone going into their house would go in with a weapon drawn. If you come across the burglar, ...
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How many? Well, I for one.

I suggest consulting a local criminal trial attorney. In many jurisdictions, should things go south, your defense of justification could be severely weakened, if not completely negated, by your having entered your home armed rather than having been in it when the unlawful entry occurred--at least under the so-called "castle doctrine" portions of the code. People have found that out the hard way.

Not to mention the risk of getting shot somewhere where it hurts.

Not to mention the risk of shooting an innocent.

All for no good reason.

If you have a double action to single action pistol or a revolver, you could cock the hammer back if the bad guy shows any attitude.
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AAARGH! There's a reason for service and SD handguns having long trigger pulls. Has to do with physiology. As Glenn suggests, read Ayoob's accounts, and get some training.

As an aside, I was interviewing an attorney the other day for potential help if needed. He didn't meet my needs (no experience in self defense cases), but he said two things worthy of reflection:

  1. People who do not need the services of an attorney are fortunate
  2. Attorney's clients, whether defendants in criminal proceedings or on either side of civil cases, are usually very unhappy with the process if not with the results

I also prefer to not need the services of a surgeon.
 
Stephen426 said:
Say you get home and you notice your home has been broken into. Honestly, how many of you would actually call the police and wait for them to clear the house (especially if police response time is bad in your area) instead of going in and checking things out for yourself?
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I'm one.

Absolutely, positively, without a doubt. Whatever is in there, he can have. I will not kill, or be killed (never assume victory), over stuff.

I would get back in the vehicle, drive to a safe distance (a few hundred feet maybe) while on with 911, observe and report.

No way am I going in.

If I'm home in the event of a burglary, I will make every effort to hold up in the safe room. The only possible scenario that will get me out is if I have to gather the wife and/or kids. After that, it's 911 and a barricaded door. Anything that tries to come through that door gets shot. Anyone who doesn't either walks or gets arrested.
 
It seems like it's possible that a BG might call your bluff if you hold a gun in his face
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Is he gonna gamble his life you're bluffing? You won't gamble your "berries", but you will gamble your life? :confused: That's one brave BG. BTW - no bluff here.
Honestly, how many of you would actually call the police and wait for them to clear the house (especially if police response time is bad in your area) instead of going in and checking things out for yourself?
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Unless I had family members inside, I would wait. I'd cover the exits as best as possible and wait. If he's still in there, it's suicide to go in. If he's left, there's no harm in waiting.

If you come across the burglar, are you going to shoot him if he is unarmed?
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In that case, can you afford to wait and find out? In SC, Castle Doctrine is fully in force and the homeowner may assume the BG is there to harm him, not to just steal from him - and may act accordingly.

What if he just decides to walk back out the front door? Are you going to try to detain him?
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Let him walk. Nope. At that point he's no longer a threat.

If the bad guy has a weapon and he doesn't drop it, I would have no hesitation shooting.
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That's the bottom line. If he has anything in his hands and brings it up to a "fighting" position, I drop the hammer.

I think demeanor has more to do with it than anything. If you issue a stern warning and you "look like you know what you are doing" with a gun
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In my CWP class, the Instructor was a 25 year veteran retired LEO. He demonstrated a street encounter by drawing, aiming, and commanding, "Stop or I will shoot you!" Even though he was aiming at a blank wall and nowhere near me, I was looking to crawl under the chair I was sitting on. Command posture and voice. THAT'S a worthwhile SD tool to practice on.

If you have a double action to single action pistol or a revolver, you could cock the hammer back if the bad guy shows any attitude.
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As Mas and many others have said, not wise. Again, that's more of a "warning" the BG doesn't deserve. It also may convey (to a jury) that you were going to shoot no matter what happened.

Despite the chest pounding and bravado we tend to display on these types of forums, most of those who have "been there and done that" say it is pretty traumatic.
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I can imagine it is, but compared to the trauma of being killed or watching a loved one killed, it's minor and I don't believe thinking about the possible repercussions later would slow me down any.
 
I concur with Bill DeShivs, I too have had two eyeball to eyeball encounters and the BGS ran both times- I never had to fire a shot.

BUT.... you guys must watch too much TV. In the first encounter it was two guys that broke into my property. Years later, the second time it was five guys. The idea you are going to face a single BG may not be that valid.

If I have to shoot I'll probably aim for the torso as that is a bigger target and I'll continue to shoot while the BG is still standing. I've read that incapacitation time is something like three and a half seconds.

Let's see. One Mississippi, Two Mississippi, Three Mississippi, four Mis.....

Plenty of time for a lot of shooting back and forth, if the BG is running- let him run, you have no idea if he has partners, etc, Call the cops, tell them where you are, that you are armed, and for them to make their presence know when they show up and you'll call out your name, etc.
 
I'm an old dinosaur and I like things simple.

1. Arm yourself if you perceive danger.
2. Shoot if danger to you or others is imminent and you fear for your/their life.
3. If boogerman runs objective is accomplished, danger went away.
4. If boogerman threatens you in spite of your gun make him have a bad day.
5. Never, never, never fire a warning shot or shoot to wound, leave that for TV movies.

Then render aid if necessary, call authorities and call a lawyer. Don't talk because stupid talk will put your tail in jail and when you are full of adrenaline and shock you are stupid. Believe me you mouth will run a lot faster than your brain and you brain wont be on the right track anyway.
 
Posted by CWPinSC: In SC, Castle Doctrine is fully in force and the homeowner may assume the BG is there to harm him, not to just steal from him - and may act accordingly.
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Yes. In SC.

However, there are castle doctrines and there are castle doctrines.

Where I live, I must be inside the domicile (or automobile) to avail myself of a defense of justification under the castle doctrine.

In other states, the code includes the word "occupied" as it relates to the home or other premises.

In still others, the resident must present evidence indicating a basis for reasonable belief the intruder intended to commit a crime in addition to that of unlawful entry.

And that's all in the code as written. What's the case law?

One must understand the law and it's meaning in his or her jurisdiction. There's no substitute for that.

Case in point: a couple of years ago in a state in which there was no "castle doctrine" in the code per se, but in which a castle doctrine was in fact in force due to a state supreme court decision, a man returned home to find an intruder in the house and shot him, claiming self defense. No need to dredge up media reports, but the homeowner was convicted of manslaughter.

Unless I had family members inside, I would wait.
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So would I. Safer physically, financially, and legally--by far.

Matter of fact, I would follow Peetzakilla's advice: I would get back in the vehicle, drive to a safe distance (a few hundred feet maybe) while on with 911, observe and report.
 
I have been held at gun point 3 times and knife point 2 times. 1 of the three times at gun point I booked it on foot. Oh yes, you'd be suprised how fast even a fat man can run when fleeing for his life. Especially since both my father and me can tap into our adrenaline at will. Both times with a knife I was easily able to dispatch the BG with bare hands. In a fight for life their is no fairness only victory or death. I cold cocked the guy and dropped him, took the knife and held it to his throat and told him I'd take his manhood from him if I ever saw him again. Same guys tries it again and this time he tried to stab me, luckily I stopped his hand be4 the blade reached my belly, I spit in his face then grabbed his wrist and twisted it till It snapped. Then he fell to the ground crying and I held him at knife point again until the cops arrived. He was a younger guy and only got 3 years. Never seen him since, but it was in my neighborhood it happened so I always keep my maverick loaded...
 
..you could cock the hammer back if the bad guy shows any attitude
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A relatively-fit human can close a gap of 20 feet in well under two seconds. That means from a reasonable distance in the home, he/she can potentially crush your trachea or have a blade in your chest in less than a second.

Get yourself a blue gun (Airsoft is even better), a training knife, some eye pro and a buddy. Run some Force-on-Force drills around your house, around your car, and in other scenarios. Run them live, full-speed, and you'll find that many of the tactics you think make sense don't give you much more than a 50-50 chance at best.
 
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Big Tom said:
Both times with a knife I was easily able to dispatch the BG with bare hands. In a fight for life their is no fairness only victory or death. I cold cocked the guy and dropped him, took the knife and held it to his throat and told him I'd take his manhood from him if I ever saw him again. Same guys tries it again and this time he tried to stab me, luckily I stopped his hand be4 the blade reached my belly, I spit in his face then grabbed his wrist and twisted it till It snapped. Then he fell to the ground crying and I held him at knife point again until the cops arrived. He was a younger guy and only got 3 years. Never seen him since, but it was in my neighborhood it happened so I always keep my maverick loaded...
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Hey Big Tom, I'm interested in this case here. Do you have any police reports from the incident? You did report it, right? If so, I bet T&T would get a huge benefit if you posted scanned copies of the report. Black out any personal information obviously. Also when and where did this occur? At night, in an alleyway, in a parking lot during daytime? Also I've never heard of a model of gun called a Maverick... what kind is it specifically? The only models I'm finding in my research on the internet are paintball markers and nerf guns. Also do you have any prior martial arts training? I'm asking because a knife attack is a very dangerous thing and the victim is at a very large disadvantage. Thanks!

Also, how does one "tap into adrenaline at will"? Is this something you can train?
 
Booker I have actully run drills in my house like your talking about, without the other person, but I can see where it would take no time for them to get to you. I dont belive the BG should have a fair advantage in a mans house. Everywhere I go I am aware of my surroundings.
 
Then render aid if necessary,
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You got it all right except this one. Except for controlling the bleeding and treating for shock, there's very little a layman with no equipment can do for a gunshot victim (and I use that term loosely) in the field.

Now, you render aid - he dies. You can easily be accused of "finishing him off". It's just another legal battle you'll have to fight. For example: As a EMT, I was trained to check the carotid pulse by sliding my fingers from the side of the neck towards the center, not from the center outwards. Both methods work equally well, so why? In the second method, with your hand across the trachea, it appears you may be choking the victim. Now think. You're messing with a guy who just tried to attack you and you shot him...

As for talking, you're dead (no pun intended) on. Shut up. Talk to no one except the responding LEOs and then only to say something like, "I was in fear for my life and I defended myself. I respectfully refuse to answer any further questions until I have a lawyer present and have consulted with him."

One must understand the law and it's meaning in his or her jurisdiction. There's no substitute for that.
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Point well taken, Old Marksman. Different states, different laws and interpretations. Know the law in your state but don't let it hinder you from protecting your life and the lives of your family. In that case, I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.
 
Say you get home and you notice your home has been broken into. Honestly, how many of you would actually call the police and wait for them to clear the house
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I did, 2 cops cleard the house before I went in tthere. Better they get shot (vests) than I (no vest).

Heroic actions may get you killed. Be careful.
 
A man I know, who's home was invaded three Sundays ago at 3.30am by three men and a woman, managed to retrieve his S&W .38spl snubby and shoot one of the intruders through and through dropping him dead in his tracks. The other three jumped my friend, wrestled his revolver from him and shot my friend through his left leg. Now my friend was facing three very angry intruders so he did what most will do when they think death is imminent, he began begging for his life. The woman was the girlfriend of the intruder he killed so she sat on my friend's back and pummeled the back of his skull with the butt of a shotgun. He eventually feigned unconsciousness and after ransacking his home they tied him up and left him there with their dead comrade. According to him you'll do anything when you believe you're about to be killed. They've captured two of the armed intruders so far.
 
That is very true, I have on 2 occasion beg for my life as well. The only reason I was able to do this to the one guy is because he was so easy to read. Mind you this was luck not skills.
 
Permission has been given to me by M. Ayoob to post this.

"And if you weren't qualified to use "killing force", woe unto you if you make a "shot-to-wound" that maims in this fashion. For one thing, ask your attorney how much more a cripled man can sue the causer for than can the family of the deceased.
The very fact that you did not "shot-to-kill" can indicate that you did not consider the crisis a killing situation; it could be decided that your degree of response was more than you, even at the time, reasonably believed was necessary."

"when time and the heat of the moment permit, that there should be a verbal warning to the assailant, but neither a warning shot nor a shot aimed to disable. If the warning is ignored, or can not be issued without jeopardizing the defender or the innocent party about to be slain or badly injured, the situation has escalated. It has reached the point where the degree of preventative force that is justifiable now encompasses the right to kill."

Ayoob, Massad F. "Self-Defense and Lethal Force." In The Gravest Extreme (The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection). Concord, NH: Dorothy A. Ayoob, 1980. 24-25. Print.
 
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guns as BG deterrent

First, you never 'shoot to wound' - from a legal, moral, and tacitcal standpoint, you always shoot to _stop_, going for center of mass. In other words, you use lethal force only to stop a threat of grevious bodily harm, kidnapping, of similar.

Personally, i'd only aim a gun at someone if i _already_ had a reason to shoot, but we are getting into tactical thinking, and i'm not really experienced enough to advse others at this.

One incident, I was being approached by a BG in a parking lot at 1 am in near downtown Chicago, I had finnished a service call and was carrying my two tool cases to my car. I had a small 9mm in the briefcase, and the BG was about 40 feet from me when i reached my car. I set the cases down, opened the brief, and clearly and openly tucked the pistol in the front of my belt.
I closed the case and opened the car door.

BG does a 90 degree turn that would have done any drill team proud, and keeps looking at me out of the corner of his eye, body language now tense/scared, rather than tense/aggressive prior to seeing the gun.

I have no way of knowing, but if i had pointed the gun at him too soon, he may have mistaken my not firing as unwillingness to engage. Plus, he was too far to legally /morally engage.

Having your hand on the gun shows confidence that you can draw and fire, and you are not so scared as to have to threaten right off the bat.

That's my 2 cents.
 
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