The ultimate weapon....The MP5

What can the MP5 do that the M16 can't in LE applications?

Ammo interchangability with your pistol. Compact configurations (small plus). Less overpenetration. Wound diameter. Opinions vary, but I would prefer the MP5 indoors.
Last I heard Pentagon security uses sub-guns with pistols in matching caliber, but the cavalry is close by. That being said I prefer a 12ga. over both especially in a LE situmawation.
 
Most LEO's (even the ones involved in the Hollywood Robbery) would be better served by a lever-action or pump-action carbine in .30-30 or .308 (esp. w/ Leverloution bullets) and decent marksmanship training than any full-auto subgun or "battle rifle"....

Shot placement is the end-all.... :cool:
 
Ammo interchangability with your pistol. Compact configurations (small plus). Less overpenetration. Wound diameter. Opinions vary, but I would prefer the MP5 indoors.
Last I heard Pentagon security uses sub-guns with pistols in matching caliber, but the cavalry is close by. That being said I prefer a 12ga. over both especially in a LE situmawation.
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MP5 is 9mm, most LE use 40 s&W in sidearms.
11.5 AR just as compact as MP5
9mm has more "overpenetration" than 5.56
Ever see what a M193, or Nosler 75gr does compared to a 9mm?
 
Let me preface this by saying that I am not a die hard fan of the AR 15 / M 16... in fact if I had my druthers I'd take a Sig551 or HK 416 however I feel compelled to defend the 16 against what has been said here.

Frankly I agree there are superior systems out there, however the 16 is not non-functional, infact far from it.

Furthermore the allegation that using field expediant muzzle covers to keep dirt out of your weapon (i.e. condoms) or carrying your weapon over your head when fording deep water represents a weak weapon is simply not true, these thigns have bene done for years prior to the 16 and are well advised for anyone with any weapons system in the field.
 
The 30-30 and 308 have too much penetration for "trailer park" use. They are also a bad idea in the rare active shooter scenario where the officer might have to take a shot inside a mall or school. The 223 with proper bullets is about ideal for most general LE use. 223 is cheaper than most other calibers and the low recoil allows an officer to train often and actually enjoy it. Those envisioning officers dumping multiple magazines into the neighborhood need to get out and support the training budget for their local LE and quit watching Hollywood shoot-em ups.
 
HK isnt pushing the MP5 as much anymore as they have came out with what they considered its replacement..the UMP, and then there is the MP7A1 that Norway is in the process of as we speak getting rid of all thier MP5's and changing over to the HK MP7A1

Having took HK's tactical training, and MP5 school at the Height of the MP5 wave of popularity in the late 1980's I can say it is a decent gun, but not one that is perfect or without drawbacks...Having shot the Colt M16 9mm SMG side by side with MP5s....the manual of arms is much faster with the Colt (Thats why the DEA went with the Colt 9mm SMG at the Time)
 
The ultimate weapon....The MP5
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It is an outstanding subgun, but as a subgun, it has all sorts of limitations. The short barreld MP5s have about the same accuracy as Glocks of the same barrel length. It isn't that the MP5s are more accuracte, but that shoulder-fired weapons with a longer sight radius are easier to shoot accurately.

It is a CQB kind of gun that won't defeat body armor. If that is what you need, then they are great.
 
It's accurate, reliable, and has good sights. It's also a bit on the heavy side, expensive to buy and fix, and doesn't have a bolt hold open device on the last shot.

Good gun overall, but they wouldn't be my first pick for a SMG. As for "ultimate"...:rolleyes:
 
Why would someone what to take a longer than pistol range shot with an MP5 anyway? and BOY LET ME TELL YOU, they are WAY more accurate (just having a stock and stability) than a Glock of the same barrel length.
 
Why would someone what to take a longer than pistol range shot with an MP5 anyway? and BOY LET ME TELL YOU, they are WAY more accurate (just having a stock and stability) than a Glock of the same barrel length.
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Yes, but would it be more "accurate" than a Glock with a shoulder stock? I don't think so. In reality, however, you aren't actually talking about accuracy.

The stock in no way affects accuracy, just marksmanship. When referring to accuracy in guns, accuracy is the mechanical ability of the gun in putting bullets on target. This is a trait of the gun itself, regardless of the shooter. Marksmanship is a person's ability to land bullets on target with a given gun.

So the stock and stability don't affect the gun's accuracy, just the shooter's ability to be able to perform.

Similarly, sight radius, scopes, properly mounted bipods, slings, etc. don't actually affect accuracy.

So, unless HK MP5s with same length barrels as Glocks have some sort of better rifling or lockup, then the MP5 isn't going to be significantly different or better than the Glock in terms of accuracy.
 
Huh? An MP5 as a primary weapon? What kind of holster would you put it in? How do you plan on getting in and out of a patrol car with that thing on a regualar basis.

Finally, the worst argument for an idea is to say the "British and Europeans" have learned"...don't forget, it wasn't that long ago that the British decided that their cops should have guns in the first place.

Full-auto is overrated and totally unnecessary for officers on regular patrol.
 
Primary weapon

People that use the MP5 for what it was actually designed, it is the primary weapon. This was designed with the SOCOM (or like similar) specialist in mind, not the every day patrol officer. You are verrrrrrry correct in that the MP5 is NOT a primary weapon for Beat LEO's, nor should a 'UNI' carry full auto in their cruisers.

What would the news and media think, therefore the rest of America, if an officer shot a gas-station robber 16 times with a full auto weapon? They arn't going to care that the robber was shooting at the cop, they will crucify the officer for using 'excessive force' and for using a fully automatic 'assault weapon'.

Full auto is for ERT and SWAT. Even then, when you really look at a full auto's effectiveness, it's really overkill and unnecessary there too. Hell your HRT teams in the military don't even use full auto for CQB anymore.
 
Very versatile gun, IMO.

HK20briefcase1.jpg
 
MP5 History...

The MP5 was first designed by Heckler & Koch, Germany in 1966 as the HK54. The '5' meaning submachine gun and the '4' identifies it as being chambered in the 9x19 Parabellum (the 9mm round then was exceptionally hot, in today’s standards (US) it would be considered a 9mm +P or +P+). West Germany's Government changed the name to Maschinenpistole 5 or Machine Pistol 5. MP5 for short. West Germany used it in LE and Border Guard rolls.
It was first introduced to CAPT Richard Marcinko in 1980 when CAPT(SEAL/PJ) Marcinko formed SEAL Team 6, by Germany's GSG9 (Grenzschutzgruppe 9 or Border Guards 9) - Germany's elite Counter Terrorism Force (today they are regarded as being some of the absolute best in the world, bar none). This is where the MP5 became a world player.
The design proved so successful that soon the rest of the military began using it. Pilots, both fixed wing and rotary, carried it in their cockpits as a GREAT compact SMG (where the M16 doesn't fit - where it remains in service to this day). It was very soon adopted for LE use in about 1983 (around there), and it became EXTREMELY popular among NFA shooters. Several C2 Manufacturers began taking the SP89/54 (the simi auto version) and converting them to the MP5 and registering them on the market as either 'registered sears' or 'registered receivers'. (Terry Dyer and John Flemming are some of the most common)
A little known fact, is that there are no (to my knowledge) genuine factory, MP5's on the transferable registry. H&K would only sell to the military at first, then after 1985 they began selling them to LE. All the MP5's that are out there today were at one time an SP89 or a variant. H&K did produce SP89's specifically for conversions, so there are some that were factory stamped MP5, but were shipped simi-auto where a C2 SOT converted it to FA. H&K produced the MP5 in 26 variants with 94 & SP98 being the simi-auto versions:

Unless noted otherwise, all MP5 variants are chambered for the 9 × 19 mm Parabellum cartridge. Generally, "A2" and "A4" denote fixed stock, "A3" and "A5" denote retractable stock, and "A1" denotes no stock, with a buttcap (or receiver cap) in place.

MP5A1 — MP5 with buttcap/receiver cap; Navy/"SEF" trigger group.
MP5A2 — Fixed stock, Navy/"SEF" trigger group.
MP5A3 — Retractable stock, Navy/"SEF" trigger group.
MP5A4 — Fixed buttstock, 3-round burst trigger group.
MP5A5 — Retractable buttstock, 3-round burst trigger group; noted rifle-like accuracy at 100 meters.
MP5SFA2 — SF denotes single fire, with full auto removed; fixed stock.
MP5SFA3 — MP5SF with retractable stock.
MP5-N — Model developed specifically for the U.S. Navy. Navy trigger group, 3-lug/threaded barrel for attaching a suppressor, and retractable stock.
MP5-F — Model developed specifically for the French military. Rubber-padded retractable stock, ambidextrous sling loops/bolts and internal modifications to handle high-pressure ammunition.
MP5-J — Model developed for Japan. Thicker butt pad and alternate muzzle flash guard.
MP5K — The very short version of the MP5; "SEF" trigger group.
MP5KA1 — MP5K with smooth upper surface and small iron sights; "SEF" trigger group.
MP5KA4 — MP5K with 3-round burst trigger group.
MP5KA5 — MP5KA1 with 3-round burst trigger group.
MP5K-N — MP5K with Navy trigger group and 3-lug/threaded barrel for mounting of suppressors or other muzzle attachments.
MP5K-PDW — Personal Defense Weapon; MP5K-N with added folding stock and 3-lug/threaded barrel for mounting of suppressors; Navy or 3-round burst trigger group. It was first introduced in 1991.

Older model MP5A3 with retractable stockMP5SD1 — Integrated suppressor (Schalldämpfer), A1-type buttcap with sling loop; Navy/"SEF" trigger group.
MP5SD2 — Integrated suppressor (Schalldämpfer), fixed stock; Navy/"SEF" trigger group.
MP5SD3 — Integrated suppressor (Schalldämpfer), retractable stock; Navy/"SEF" trigger group.
MP5SD4 — MP5SD1 with 3-round burst trigger group.
MP5SD5 — MP5SD2 with 3-round burst trigger group.
MP5SD6 — MP5SD3 with 3-round burst trigger group.
MP5SD-N — MP5SD with Navy trigger group and KAC stainless steel suppressor; retractable stock.
MP5/10 — Chambered in 10 mm Auto, available in various stock/trigger group configurations. It was made from 1992 to 2000.
MP5/40 — Chambered in .40 S&W, available in various stock/trigger group configurations. It was made from 1992 to 2000.
HK94 — American import model of the MP5 with 16-inch barrel and special safe/semi-automatic trigger group, designed for civilian use. It was made from 1983 to 1989, in three different configurations.
SP89 — Sport Pistole M1989. Semi-automatic–only version of the MP5K designed for civilian use. It had a modified foregrip redesigned into a traditional handguard that did not allow the fitting of the MP5K's foregrip to make it compliant with the Semi-Auto Weapons Ban of 1989. It was made from 1989 to 1994.
HK 54 — This was the original model that was produced in the mid sixties. It later became known as the MP5A1, a very slightly modified version.

The MP5 first sold for $900.00 and today cost about $2,000.00 (post sample). The units that are on the ‘Transferable Registry’ are ranging in price from between $10,000USD to over $25,000.00USD (depending on condition, rarity, if it’s a SEAR gun or registered receiver, if it’s a 3-pin swing down or a clipped and pinned lower, its serial number and age).

H&K has replaced the MP5 with the MP7 and the UMP. The UMP is similar, but uses a direct blowback action where the MP5 uses a rolling, locking, delayed blowback action. The UMP is also a very light weapon (compared to the MP5’s 6lbs empty) and has a much higher rate of climb and a lot crisper recoil (i.e. intense). Both SMG’s have similar cyclic rates of between 800 and 900rpm.

The MP5-SD is the suppressed standard that ALL other silencers are measured to. It was at its time (and if you’ve ever heard RTDS, still is) the quietest smg on the market (even more so than the Sterling…. Sorry guys, but the Sterling’s action is a LOT louder than the MP5’s I shot both side by side…).

The MP5 is still in use by many LEO departments and military units. Although it is being fased out from active duty and replaced with higher caliber SMG's (the 10.4" M4 & the UMP 45) - due to the ineffectiveness of the 9mm round, but many pilots still carry the MP5 as primary weapon when they have to eject or crash behind enemy lines, and quite a few police officers carry the MP5 (reconverted to simi-auto...usually) in their cruisers, while Bomb Squads/SWAT/and ERT Units use it on their missions/call outs. The MP5 is still actively used by SEAL and Special Forces Teams.

All in all the MP5 was, is, and always will be, the absolute best 9mm SMG ever produced. It's the M1911-A1 of the SMG world. You simply cannot improve perfection. Everything else is like re-inventing the wheel. (IMHO).
 
"I think Americans arn't ready to see the police walking the beat with m16s in hand or even a bit smaller mp5's"

I hope they are in DC because M4s are what you see all over Capitol Hill. I don't remember seeing any MP5s. I realize it's not quite the same as walking through a neighborhood, but the carbines are fairly common.
 
Cops and Guns

There is a very good reason that LEO's (Law Enforcement Officers) dont carry MP5's. The MP5 is considered by the masses as being a "military rifle" and they immediately identify this as beeing a 'machine gun'. This ultimately draws unneccessary attention to the individual officer and on top of that full auto or even burst is completely unneccessary, even in the light of a shoot-out with your common robber/gang member.

The anti-gun Nazi's would have a field day if a beat cop stitched a robber full of holes using an "assualt weapon". Besides, if Special Operations dont use the full auto capability (unless they're bugging out or laying cover fire) then why should the adverage LEO?

Most LEO's carry highly accurate and reliable handguns that for the most part are all they need. In the typical cruiser you will have a rifle (generally an AR-15) and a shotgun. These two items hardly ever see any action.

The military M16's are old and abused. This is why they have reliability issues. A lot of them are 10+ years old, and poorly cared for. The current productions are exceptionally reliable and do not require extreame cleaning as people are taught that they do. I carried a 10" M4 in the sand box when I was military and I never experienced a single jam or stove pipe. Even on the fairly rare occaisions that we actually used the full auto capability. Yes we did maintain the weapon and clean it, but we were by no means anal with it. Not like the line troops were with their full sized M16's and M4's. The 'Black Rifle' is a very good platform albiet the caliber.

The .223 caliber is beginning to become obsolete... especially in the battle fields. Its exceptionally effective up close and personal, but at a reasonable distance, it lacks. The 6.8 SPC is getting a LOT more play now-adays when the SOCOM troops are not using the AKs. (this is not considering the adverage infantry-man, they use what they're issued... M16/M4's)..
 
when was the last time you were in the military njtrigger ? because i know of no m16 that operates as poorly as the 1 u proclaimed does iv shot the mp5 and love but it doesn't compare to an m16 of todays manufacture and as far as the brits go most parts of the country the average cop that patrols the streets still don't have guns
 
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